Liverpool FC Forum

[dawson99]

Excellent, spot on post Maguskwt.

I hate when people say Rafa and Roy play the same way!  Its far from true.

Torres had about 13 goals at this point last year.  Confidence, injuries but mainly tactics are affecting him.

He only had one chance in 90 mins against Bolton. and one against Blackburn.

..but what has that got to do with the fact Torres can't trap a ball and loses so much possession?? methinks people are making too many excuses

People have had there say, this is becoming the same as the Roy thread, lock it peeps?

[SouthCoastShankly]

I dismiss the argument that Hodgson's tactics have been the root cause of Torres' poor form because his tactics have been also identical to Rafa's in terms of mentality, formation and team selection.

This is where you are wrong mate... Rafa's mentality or football philosophy and Roy's are as different as chalk and cheese.
On the surface yes both play 4-5-1, but Rafa's 4-5-1 and very different from Roy's. Roy's 4-5-1 is a poor imitation of Rafa's. Let me explain my point which I have been wanting to explain for quite some time but didn't want to write a long essay:


1. Rafa models his football philosophy on Arrigo Sacchi's. They play a very compact formation, close down the opponents very quickly and turns defense to attack very quickly... and that's how we have managed to beat so many good teams in the champions league. Roy uses 4-5-1 but the defense sits back, and tries to contain the opponents. But without the players being disciplined or has the tactical awareness to contain, this strategy doens't work. Also the gap between midfield and forwards (Torres) is very far, i.e. not as compact as Rafa's formation. It would have worked with players like Hyppia, Henchoz and Hamann but not with the current crop of players. But Roy doesn't care.

2. Rafa uses two defensive midfielders but one is to aggressively breakdown the opponents (Mascherano) and the other is very good at distribution (Alonso). This allows Gerrard to be at his destructive best in a free role and also give support to Torres. Torres is used as a lone striker but NOT as a target man. This is very similar to Germany's system, where Khedira is the more defensive midfielder and Schweinsteiger is the distributer/playmaker like Alonso. Ozil plays the Gerrard role. This system has been made ineffective when Alonso went and that's how Rafa struggled last season. In Roy's 4-5-1, we have Lucas or Poulsen playing defensive midfielders. Only they don't close down players very well. Gerrard is the other CM and because he has to keep on covering Lucas and Poulsen the link up with Torres is gone. Torres is also played more as a target man which is criminal.

3. In Rafa's 4-5-1, Dirk Kuyt closes down oponents which is according to Rafa's philosophy and also tracks back, this gives adequate cover for Johnson to bomb forward. On the left Riera was technically very good and rarely loses the ball which also allow Insua to bomb forward. In Rafa's system the full backs and the wingers work for each other. Not so in Roy's 4-5-1.

In short Roy is using 4-5-1 but he doesn't have a holistic system in place. Meireless is played out of position on the right. Cole doesn't seem to be able to handle the previous Gerrard's role. Gerrard is playing in CM and right now is terrible. Poulsen is pure sh1t. Johnson doesn't have enough cover and all his defensive frailties are exposed. Cole is now playing on the left but does not track back very well and Konchesky is always getting caught out of position. He hasn't shown that he is better than Insua so far. Last and by far the worst, Torres is played as target man, balls are hoofed to him and he's suppose to hold it up.

There you go... that's the difference between Rafa's system and Roy's... Chalk and Cheese...

The tactics and formation against Blackburn was very encouraging thought, I'll give him that. Meirelss and Lucas as CM's. Gerrard back to his old free role to support Torres. Maxi on the Right and Cole on the left. If I were Roy I would abandon his defensive philsophy of sitting back and play that formation. That is as close to Rafa's formation as possible. And viola Torres played very well and scored a goal. Coincidence? No.

Your right in a sense but the way you describe Rafa's tactics and style of play is old. That was the Liverpool of two years ago. Rafa lost key players and that style made way for the tripe we witnessed last season.

The football I see this season is 90% the same as last season. Nervous, apathetic and disjointed. Behind the scene Rafa and Roy may 'teach' different things but the interpretation is pretty much the same.

Without wanting to sound anti-Rafa, the players are still ingrained in his methods. Methods that failed miserably last season.

[Big Niall]

torres is a top player that has been absolutely terrible for LFC and Spain for about 8 months -so if you think Del Bosque and Ferguson (think Rooney) are krap then so be it.

[NANNY RED]

. It's not inconcieveable that we could finish 6th and win the Europa League Cup. Would it be enough?

Not for me with new owners we need to be back in CL next season. 7th wasnt good enough for Rafa despite coming very close the year before and therefore  despite a high element of unfairness about it, Roy needs at least fourth to be around next year.

Europa Cup win would be very welcomed by me  but (insert obligatory dig at other posters on this forum as per norm these days) as some people consider it just a mickey mouse cup anyway it wouldnt be enough to save him

Get real - saying 4th is a minimum requirement is just madness. As long as we finish about where we did last season, the rot will have stopped and then he can build.

I don't care about the euro loser cup or the FA cup.

How can you not care about the Europa or FA cup, Unbelievable

EVEN IF WE ARE PLAYING A FRIENDLY AND A CUP IS INVOLVED AT THE END I WANT US TO WIN AN CARE ABOUT IT.

[Big Niall]

. It's not inconcieveable that we could finish 6th and win the Europa League Cup. Would it be enough?

Not for me with new owners we need to be back in CL next season. 7th wasnt good enough for Rafa despite coming very close the year before and therefore  despite a high element of unfairness about it, Roy needs at least fourth to be around next year.

Europa Cup win would be very welcomed by me  but (insert obligatory dig at other posters on this forum as per norm these days) as some people consider it just a mickey mouse cup anyway it wouldnt be enough to save him

Get real - saying 4th is a minimum requirement is just madness. As long as we finish about where we did last season, the rot will have stopped and then he can build.

I don't care about the euro loser cup or the FA cup.

How can you not care about the Europa or FA cup, Unbelievable

EVEN IF WE ARE PLAYING A FRIENDLY AND A CUP IS INVOLVED AT THE END I WANT US TO WIN AN CARE ABOUT IT.

anyone can win a cup - Portsmouth, west ham (within a shoot out) in recent years. so what if somebody gives you a cup - you can buy a medal in some shop.

the euro loser cup is worth even less - would you be happy if in 3 years time we win the play off trophy to get promoted - I won't, because it would be a fecking disgrace to be there.

[Reg]

Spot on Nanster.

[maguskwt]

Your right in a sense but the way you describe Rafa's tactics and style of play is old. That was the Liverpool of two years ago. Rafa lost key players and that style made way for the tripe we witnessed last season.

The football I see this season is 90% the same as last season. Nervous, apathetic and disjointed. Behind the scene Rafa and Roy may 'teach' different things but the interpretation is pretty much the same.

Without wanting to sound anti-Rafa, the players are still ingrained in his methods. Methods that failed miserably last season.

Yes, like i said, losing Alonso, Aquilani not getting fit soon enough and having to play Lucas/ Mascherano was the main downfall of Rafa. It made his system less effective. Having said that, the philosophy remained unchanged Fernando Torres still scored 22 goals last season. I'm not making an excuse for last season (and Rafa wasn't only here last season), I'm pointing out the difference in football between Roy and Rafa. There is still a long way for Roy to match the tripe that we witnessed last season.

And there is no excuses for Roy now, he had the team long enough to indoctrinate them with his own philsophy and a holistic approach and system... Rafa did not complain about the squad he inherited from Houllier, he jus took it made the best out of what he could in the league (played neil mellor against the invincible Arsenal and beat them) and won the CL.

[rocky29]

i think your all missing the point. the team that roy inherited is simply not good enough when you compare other top teams to ours. we have 3 great players and the rest are just mediocre. so stop blaming roy. you can put ayrton senna in a ford fiesta he aint gona win a grand prix.

[metalhead]

you can put ayrton senna in a ford fiesta he aint gona win a grand prix.

How do you know?  

[rocky29]

you can put ayrton senna in a ford fiesta he aint gona win a grand prix.

How do you know?  

i thought id confuse nannyred 

[Kharhaz]

you can put ayrton senna in a ford fiesta he aint gona win a grand prix.

How do you know?  

<Adopting the voice of Reginald D. Hunter>

He dead !

[maguskwt]

i think your all missing the point. the team that roy inherited is simply not good enough when you compare other top teams to ours. we have 3 great players and the rest are just mediocre. so stop blaming roy. you can put ayrton senna in a ford fiesta he aint gona win a grand prix.

The squad Roy inherited is the same as the one who challenged the mancs all the way to the title, minus Alonso + your favourite Aquilani.

Since then Roy sold Riera, Benayoun, Mascherano, sent your favourite Aquilani on loan, and brought in Cole, Miereles, Konchesky and Poulesn. Yes his hands might have been tied by the board but he didn't have to sell Riera, the best winger we had for quite some time and loan out Aquilani, which obviously you would agree, but he did what he did. At the end of the day this team should have never been in the relegation zone, should have never lost to the likes of Blackpool, Everton and Northampton and for that Roy and his tactics are to blame...

I'm not expecting Roy to win the league which is what you're saying with Ayrton Senna winning a Grand Prix with a Ford Fiesta, but i'm expecting Roy to be challenging for the top 4 spot which is what he's brought in to do. And for that he's failing miserably...

[rocky29]

i think your all missing the point. the team that roy inherited is simply not good enough when you compare other top teams to ours. we have 3 great players and the rest are just mediocre. so stop blaming roy. you can put ayrton senna in a ford fiesta he aint gona win a grand prix.

The squad Roy inherited is the same as the one who challenged the mancs all the way to the title, minus Alonso + your favourite Aquilani.

Since then Roy sold Riera, Benayoun, Mascherano, sent your favourite Aquilani on loan, and brought in Cole, Miereles, Konchesky and Poulesn. Yes his hands might have been tied by the board but he didn't have to sell Riera, the best winger we had for quite some time and loan out Aquilani, which obviously you would agree, but he did what he did. At the end of the day this team should have never been in the relegation zone and for that Roy and his tactics are to blame...

feckme give the guy a chance he hasnt been in the job 2minutes.

[maguskwt]

i think your all missing the point. the team that roy inherited is simply not good enough when you compare other top teams to ours. we have 3 great players and the rest are just mediocre. so stop blaming roy. you can put ayrton senna in a ford fiesta he aint gona win a grand prix.

The squad Roy inherited is the same as the one who challenged the mancs all the way to the title, minus Alonso + your favourite Aquilani.

Since then Roy sold Riera, Benayoun, Mascherano, sent your favourite Aquilani on loan, and brought in Cole, Miereles, Konchesky and Poulesn. Yes his hands might have been tied by the board but he didn't have to sell Riera, the best winger we had for quite some time and loan out Aquilani, which obviously you would agree, but he did what he did. At the end of the day this team should have never been in the relegation zone and for that Roy and his tactics are to blame...

feckme give the guy a chance he hasnt been in the job 2minutes.

Wrong again... he's in the job for 4 months now...

[rocky29]

i think your all missing the point. the team that roy inherited is simply not good enough when you compare other top teams to ours. we have 3 great players and the rest are just mediocre. so stop blaming roy. you can put ayrton senna in a ford fiesta he aint gona win a grand prix.

The squad Roy inherited is the same as the one who challenged the mancs all the way to the title, minus Alonso + your favourite Aquilani.

Since then Roy sold Riera, Benayoun, Mascherano, sent your favourite Aquilani on loan, and brought in Cole, Miereles, Konchesky and Poulesn. Yes his hands might have been tied by the board but he didn't have to sell Riera, the best winger we had for quite some time and loan out Aquilani, which obviously you would agree, but he did what he did. At the end of the day this team should have never been in the relegation zone and for that Roy and his tactics are to blame...

feckme give the guy a chance he hasnt been in the job 2minutes.

Wrong again... he's in the job for 4 months now...

Wow 16 weeks he should be challenging for the title in all that time.