Liverpool FC Forum

[Reg]

I see we're going to have another lovely day........... 

[Ciggy]

You cant blame roy for Torres,

Oh you can, when you seen the guardian chalkboards the difference is astounding in this seasons games compared to the previous ones Torres has played in.

YOU can.

The majority don't.

So Torres goes from our top scorer to scoring 2 goals this season and only I can see it as a problem and nothing to do with Roys tactics?

Unfeckinbelievable   

[bigmick]

LFC and Scottbotts posts were excellent and got the thread back onto an even keel. I'm not going to get involved in the stuff which has gone afterwards.

I've been having a quick look at our next ten matches, and it is my guess that even if we lose against Chelsea (which I don't think we will but God knows why), we will still fairly soon be breaking into the top 10. It's not inconcieveable that we could finish 6th and win the Europa League Cup. Would it be enough?

[maguskwt]

LFC and Scottbotts posts were excellent and got the thread back onto an even keel. I'm not going to get involved in the stuff which has gone afterwards.

Sure Mick... just pretend to want to talk about Roy Hodgson in the Roy Hodgson thread...

[SouthCoastShankly]

Firstly, I have never and will never be a Roy fanboy. In fact I agree he is not the right person for the job. I also believe Rafa had to go. I was one of the first on here to advocate Dalglish. Get your facts straight.

Secondly, I don't represent the majority. The majority of those on here have not labelled Hodgson as the reason for Torres' lack of form. A few loudmouths have.

Torres last season under Rafa was far from memorable, towards the end both our league position, frustrating results and injuries were showing. His world cup was poor by anyone's standards. I dismiss the argument that Hodgson's tactics have been the root cause of Torres' poor form because his tactics have been also identical to Rafa's in terms of mentality, formation and team selection.

Hodgson obviously has not been able to motivate the players out of this spell of poor form that has continued from Rafa's departure but to suggest he is the reason for a misfiring striker is at best deluded and at worst lies.

There are far too many agendas on this board.

[Ben Patrick]

Firstly, I have never and will never be a Roy fanboy. In fact I agree he is not the right person for the job. I also believe Rafa had to go. I was one of the first on here to advocate Dalglish. Get your facts straight.

Secondly, I don't represent the majority. The majority of those on here have not labelled Hodgson as the reason for Torres' lack of form. A few loudmouths have.

Torres last season under Rafa was far from memorable, towards the end both our league position, frustrating results and injuries were showing. His world cup was poor by anyone's standards. I dismiss the argument that Hodgson's tactics have been the root cause of Torres' poor form because his tactics have been also identical to Rafa's in terms of mentality, formation and team selection.

Hodgson obviously has not been able to motivate the players out of this spell of poor form that has continued from Rafa's departure but to suggest he is the reason for a misfiring striker is at best deluded and at worst lies.

There are far too many agendas on this board.

That post makes a lot of sense.

[stmichael]

Secondly, I don't represent the majority. The majority of those on here have not labelled Hodgson as the reason for Torres' lack of form. A few loudmouths have.

Torres last season under Rafa was far from memorable, towards the end both our league position, frustrating results and injuries were showing. His world cup was poor by anyone's standards. I dismiss the argument that Hodgson's tactics have been the root cause of Torres' poor form because his tactics have been also identical to Rafa's in terms of mentality, formation and team selection.

I agree that Torres isn't just suffering as a result of Hodgson's pitiful tactics, but they're one important factor. As you say injuries and a lack of confidence have also played their part.  I also think he's probably disillusioned with our recent lack of transfer activity.

The suggestion from some on here that we should sell him though are just ludicrous. If he wants to go at the end of the season then so be it but you don't get rid of your best players (especially a world class one) unless you've got an adequate replacement.

[laza]

. It's not inconcieveable that we could finish 6th and win the Europa League Cup. Would it be enough?

Not for me with new owners we need to be back in CL next season. 7th wasnt good enough for Rafa despite coming very close the year before and therefore  despite a high element of unfairness about it, Roy needs at least fourth to be around next year.

Europa Cup win would be very welcomed by me  but (insert obligatory dig at other posters on this forum as per norm these days) as some people consider it just a mickey mouse cup anyway it wouldnt be enough to save him

[tubby]

Even if we finished 6th and won the EL id still want him out. Wouldn't really be much of an improvment on last season would it? He'd be managing out of his skin so to speak, has he even ever finished that high? Must be away with the faries Mick.

[red till i die!!]

what would roy have to do to get the fans behind him??.
well for me firstly it has to be the results.they arent good enough for any liverpool manager regardless of who they are.
secondly he needs to sort out his tactics and vastly improve how we are playing.the man has 35 years of experience but yet it seems he could write all that experience on the back of a fag box.
thirdly he needs to conduct himself better in interviews and stop openly talking about players as flops and b team as he will alienate even more of them.stop passing the blame on the squad you have to buy more time as all fans know we arent as bad as this season suggests.its up to him to get the most out of them or he has failed.

im not a roy fan and i dont hate him either i just believe he isnt good enough for a club like lfc and so far i dont see any reasons for changing my mind

[maguskwt]

I dismiss the argument that Hodgson's tactics have been the root cause of Torres' poor form because his tactics have been also identical to Rafa's in terms of mentality, formation and team selection.

This is where you are wrong mate... Rafa's mentality or football philosophy and Roy's are as different as chalk and cheese.
On the surface yes both play 4-5-1, but Rafa's 4-5-1 and very different from Roy's. Roy's 4-5-1 is a poor imitation of Rafa's. Let me explain my point which I have been wanting to explain for quite some time but didn't want to write a long essay:


1. Rafa models his football philosophy on Arrigo Sacchi's. They play a very compact formation, close down the opponents very quickly and turns defense to attack very quickly... and that's how we have managed to beat so many good teams in the champions league. Roy uses 4-5-1 but the defense sits back, and tries to contain the opponents. But without the players being disciplined or has the tactical awareness to contain, this strategy doens't work. Also the gap between midfield and forwards (Torres) is very far, i.e. not as compact as Rafa's formation. It would have worked with players like Hyppia, Henchoz and Hamann but not with the current crop of players. But Roy doesn't care.

2. Rafa uses two defensive midfielders but one is to aggressively breakdown the opponents (Mascherano) and the other is very good at distribution (Alonso). This allows Gerrard to be at his destructive best in a free role and also give support to Torres. Torres is used as a lone striker but NOT as a target man. This is very similar to Germany's system, where Khedira is the more defensive midfielder and Schweinsteiger is the distributer/playmaker like Alonso. Ozil plays the Gerrard role. This system has been made ineffective when Alonso went and that's how Rafa struggled last season. In Roy's 4-5-1, we have Lucas or Poulsen playing defensive midfielders. Only they don't close down players very well. Gerrard is the other CM and because he has to keep on covering Lucas and Poulsen the link up with Torres is gone. Torres is also played more as a target man which is criminal.

3. In Rafa's 4-5-1, Dirk Kuyt closes down oponents which is according to Rafa's philosophy and also tracks back, this gives adequate cover for Johnson to bomb forward. On the left Riera was technically very good and rarely loses the ball which also allow Insua to bomb forward. In Rafa's system the full backs and the wingers work for each other. Not so in Roy's 4-5-1.

In short Roy is using 4-5-1 but he doesn't have a holistic system in place. Meireless is played out of position on the right. Cole doesn't seem to be able to handle the previous Gerrard's role. Gerrard is playing in CM and right now is terrible. Poulsen is pure sh1t. Johnson doesn't have enough cover and all his defensive frailties are exposed. Cole is now playing on the left but does not track back very well and Konchesky is always getting caught out of position. He hasn't shown that he is better than Insua so far. Last and by far the worst, Torres is played as target man, balls are hoofed to him and he's suppose to hold it up.

There you go... that's the difference between Rafa's system and Roy's... Chalk and Cheese...

The tactics and formation against Blackburn was very encouraging thought, I'll give him that. Meirelss and Lucas as CM's. Gerrard back to his old free role to support Torres. Maxi on the Right and Cole on the left. If I were Roy I would abandon his defensive philsophy of sitting back and play that formation. That is as close to Rafa's formation as possible. And viola Torres played very well and scored a goal. Coincidence? No.

[7_Kewell]

i still get the impression that Roy is still searching for his best formation, but he's open to changing things, which was proven during the Blackburn match.

[Big Niall]

. It's not inconcieveable that we could finish 6th and win the Europa League Cup. Would it be enough?

Not for me with new owners we need to be back in CL next season. 7th wasnt good enough for Rafa despite coming very close the year before and therefore  despite a high element of unfairness about it, Roy needs at least fourth to be around next year.

Europa Cup win would be very welcomed by me  but (insert obligatory dig at other posters on this forum as per norm these days) as some people consider it just a mickey mouse cup anyway it wouldnt be enough to save him

Get real - saying 4th is a minimum requirement is just madness. As long as we finish about where we did last season, the rot will have stopped and then he can build.

I don't care about the euro loser cup or the FA cup.

[stmichael]

I dismiss the argument that Hodgson's tactics have been the root cause of Torres' poor form because his tactics have been also identical to Rafa's in terms of mentality, formation and team selection.

This is where you are wrong mate... Rafa's mentality or football philosophy and Roy's are as different as chalk and cheese.
On the surface yes both play 4-5-1, but Rafa's 4-5-1 and very different from Roy's. Roy's 4-5-1 is a poor imitation of Rafa's. Let me explain my point which I have been wanting to explain for quite some time but didn't want to write a long essay:


1. Rafa models his football philosophy on Arrigo Sacchi's. They play a very compact formation, close the the opponents very quickly and turns defense to attack very quickly... and that's how we have managed to beat so many good teams in the champions league. Roy uses 4-5-1 but the defense sits back, and tries to contain the opponents. But without the players being disciplined or has the tactical awareness to contain, this strategy doens't work. Also the gap between midfield and forwards (Torres) is very far, i.e. not as compact as Rafa's formation. It would have worked with players like Hyppia, Henchoz and Hamann but not with the current crop of players. But Roy doesn't care.

2. Rafa uses two defensive midfielders but one is to aggressively breakdown the opponents (Mascherano) and the other is very good at distribution (Alonso). This allows Gerrard to be at his destructive best in a free role and also give support to Torres. Torres is used as a lone striker but NOT as a target man. This is very similar to Germany's system, where Khedira is the more defensive midfielder and Schweinsteiger is the distributer/playmaker like Alonso. Ozil plays the Gerrard role. This system has been made ineffective when Alonso went and that's how Rafa struggled last season. In Roy's 4-5-1, we have Lucas or Poulsen playing defensive midfielders. Only they don't close down players very well. Gerrard is the other CM and because he has to keep on covering Lucas and Poulsen the link up with Torres is gone. Torres is also played more as a target man which is criminal.

3. In Rafa's 4-5-1, Dirk Kuyt closes down oponents which is according to Rafa's philosophy and also tracks back, this gives adequate cover for Johnson to bomb forward. On the left Riera was technically very good and rarely loses the ball which also allow Insua to bomb forward. In Rafa's system the full backs and the wingers work for each other. Not so in Roy's 4-5-1.

In short Roy is using 4-5-1 but he doesn't have a holistic system in place. Meireless is played out of position on the right. Cole doesn't seem to be able to handle the previous Gerrard's role. Gerrard is playing in CM and right now is terrible. Poulsen is pure sh1t. Johnson doesn't have enough cover and all his defensive frailties are exposed. Cole is now playing on the left but does not track back very well and Konchesky is always getting caught out of position. He hasn't shown that he is better than Insua so far. Last and by far the worst, Torres is played as target man, balls are hoofed to him and he's suppose to hold it up.

There you go... that's the difference between Rafa's system and Roy's... Chalk and Cheese...

The tactics and formation against Blackburn was very encouraging thought, I'll give him that. Meirelss and Lucas as CM's. Gerrard back to his old free role to support Torres. Maxi on the Right and Cole on the left. If I were Roy I would abandon his defensive philsophy of sitting back and play that formation. That is as close to Rafa's formation as possible. And viola Torres played very well and scored a goal. Coincidence? No.

That's a good post. I agree with all of it.

The formation and tactics are the same except for the fact that we're playing 10-15 yards deeper than we ever did under the previous manager. As you said, we don't even press the ball high up the pitch anymore either.

I couldn't believe how deep Mereiles was playing at the weekend. If Lucas was sitting I couldn't really see the benefit of Mereiles barely crossing the half way line. It was almost as if he was playing under instructions. Considering Gerrard had a proverbial mare it meant that we hardly ever had any players in the penalty area until Maxi scored late on.

Excellent point about Dirk Kuyt aswell. I know he has his detractors but we seriously miss him when he isn't in the side.

[jacdaniel]

Excellent, spot on post Maguskwt.

I hate when people say Rafa and Roy play the same way!  Its far from true.

Torres had about 13 goals at this point last year.  Confidence, injuries but mainly tactics are affecting him.

He only had one chance in 90 mins against Bolton. and one against Blackburn.