Liverpool FC Forum

[account deleted by request]

I can't help but think more strategically on managers and what happens when they get recycled.

If we finish 5th and win nothing, is that a poor season for Rafa? Yes.

but:

Do we want another 4 year rebuilding period starting from scratch? No.

Is a change of manager the only difference between us being a 5th placed team and a league championship winning team? No.

Are there other managers who would bring a substantial and immediate change to our performances? No.

Is there a huge difference (in terms of ability) between Ferguson, Wenger, Rafa, Mourinho, Capello, Ancelotti, Scolari etc? No.

My theory is the manager isn't as important a cog in the machine as people (and certainly the gutter press) would have you believe, when they go on about sackings etc to sell their newspapers. I think the most important role of a manager and his backroom team is to give the playing staff consistency and stability.

Changing players/tactics/club funding have all been proven to increase the success of football teams, but I am not convinced that just swapping one Grade A manager for another Grade A manager has ever changed a clubs fortunes.

In summary: I wouldn't swap Rafa for anyone in the next 5-10 years.

If we did go the new manager route, I don't think it would necessarily be the 4 or 5 year rebuilding period, we have the basis of a great squad. A good manager would be quite capable in my view of settling quickly, as did Paisley, Fagan,Dalglish, even without their advantage of "knowing the club".

We could perhaps lose 6 or 7 players(allowing the manager to bring in his favourites and stamp his mark on the team)without too much damage to the team or its developement.

Riise, Finnan,Hyypia, (Crouch/Kuyt/ Voronin), Aurelio, (Benayoun/Pennant) maybe even a central midfielder if extra funds were required.

The only real reasons I can see for changing our manager is if rotation (on the level used by Rafa) is proven not to work, or personal difficulties with the squad leads to the famous loss of the dressing room.

[Lando_Griffin]

In answer to the original question,

Rafa SHOULD go at the end of the season, if the the following things happen.

1. We get knocked out of the Champions League group phase.

2. We are more than 10 points from top spot in the league come May. (or in at least 3rd position).

Gerard Houllier only got 4 seasons, and if we are a mile off the top, the we simply arent making progress.

Thats my take on it.

So how about that card amnesty, hmmm? 

[NANNY RED]

In answer to the original question,

Rafa SHOULD go at the end of the season, if the the following things happen.

1. We get knocked out of the Champions League group phase.

2. We are more than 10 points from top spot in the league come May. (or in at least 3rd position).

Gerard Houllier only got 4 seasons, and if we are a mile off the top, the we simply arent making progress.

Thats my take on it.

So how about that card amnesty, hmmm? 

You let me down Lando lad

There coming out the woodwork today  

[yckatbjywtbiastkamb]

come on, get real, it`s going to take time to overhaul teams like united who have been consistently better than us for about 15 years and have also outspent us in that period.
not to mention they have a good manager too, fergusons not stupid, far from it.
if rafa (or anyone else for that matter) wins the league with liverpool he will have done incredibly well considering what he took over and who he has to compete against.
i believe rafa is the man to do that job, and i think his trophy record should give him more leeway than he gets from some fans who seem to think just because we are `liverpool` we should win everything.
we have or had no divine right to win the title, those 18 titles wins were earned by hard work not given to us because we are liverpool.
it took a great manager like ferguson 6 years to win anything at all and thats at the helm of the richest club in the land.
i believe given enough time rafa will come across a title winning team.
i just couldnt see houllier doing that, even in the far future.

[bigmick]

I've said a couple of times in the last couple of weeks that whether or not Rafa stays or not depends on the direction the club is going in for the rest of this season. If it depends upon us mounting a sustained and realistic title challenge then this is probably his last season in my view, but if it depends on him showing that there is a real possibility that we could get there next season then he'll get a shot at season number five.

We're probably going to get a good indication of where the owners are coming from when the transfer window comes around. If they take the view that Rafa is not the man to take the club forward, then it wouldn't be that surprising to see him not backed so heavily in the transfer market.

The key is the direction between then and now. If we buy top class and top money Torres type players, will we still rest and rotate them after four or five games? Will we still change the formation, line-up and positions to the same extent we did at the start of this season and last? When the big guns come back and presumeably we win a few matches, will we still be so keen to alter the line up and risk the fluency, confidence, cohesion and rhythm of the team? Will we go to places like Blackburn, Pompey etc etc and really go for the wins, or will we go with the fear of losing an unbeaten run?

These things are key for me, because if we are to mount a title challenge under Rafa these issues need to be addressed. It's worth bearing in mind that the team had lost its way in terms of fluent attacking play long before the injuries kicked in, it was IMHO the constant changing of the line-up which contributed most to the undermining of our confidence. The Americans may well ask the question, what's the point in us giving you a wodge of cash to spend on top class players if you are'nt going to play them? It's a fair one.

As a footnote, not wanting to crank up the controversy particularly but I may as well ask the question. The press are predictably talking up the possibility of Mourinho replacing Rafa. Now I don't like the little ponce any more than the next man, special he certainly ain't, but were he to take over at the end of the season, would we have more or less chance of winning the Premiership? I don't think from a tactical point of view he is anywhere near Rafa's equal, and probably isn't in the transfer market either. My hunch is that he would try something really simplistic. He'd put his arm around Gerrard and tell him he is the best midfield player in the World, he'd tell Torres that he was the one player above all others that he wanted to sign when he was Chelsea manager, he'd do an interview whereby he'd call Alonso "the General", and say that Carra was the one centre half that Drogba hated playing against. The he'd probably go and play pretty much the same team in the first couple of months of the season. Hand on heart, would I want him as Liverpools manager? NO. Hand on heart do I think we'd have more chance of winning the Premiership with him in charge? yes.

[JohnBull]

I don't think that there is an alternative to Raffa at the moment and I do not think he should go.

I do think that the man has to change his methods of man management and thereby hangs the problems. He doesn't come across as arrogant but his determination and inflexability borders on being bi-polar.

What he needs at the moment is a good mate who could put an arm around his shoulder and have a quiet word with him. Then again Pako was doing that job and look what happened to him. It's alright having a bunker mentality as long as we are not going to swallow a Luger at the end of it

[Kharhaz]

I dont think maureen would win us the premiership. Rafa commands the respect of the players because of what he has achieved with limited resources while mourinho has achieved his success by spending loads of money on players that hardly play and boring performances. Also would he acknowledge the crowd, the supporters, lets not forget its been a while since hes managed in front of those !
If Gillett and Hicks have the patience then rafa will stay.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

I dont think maureen would win us the premiership. Rafa commands the respect of the players because of what he has achieved with limited resources while mourinho has achieved his success by spending loads of money on players that hardly play and boring performances. Also would he acknowledge the crowd, the supporters, lets not forget its been a while since hes managed in front of those !
If Gillett and Hicks have the patience then rafa will stay.

Limited resources? 100 million in just over 3 years isn't limited resources. Up until the start of last year Everton had limited resources, and yet were still able to push us for a european cup place. So don't start saying we haven't had funds. We're the 2nd biggest side in the England, and we're certainlly in the top ten most reconised clubs around the world, so our comerciall sales alone would pay for the majority of the squad. Limited funds my ar.se

[Kharhaz]

I dont think maureen would win us the premiership. Rafa commands the respect of the players because of what he has achieved with limited resources while mourinho has achieved his success by spending loads of money on players that hardly play and boring performances. Also would he acknowledge the crowd, the supporters, lets not forget its been a while since hes managed in front of those !
If Gillett and Hicks have the patience then rafa will stay.

Limited resources? 100 million in just over 3 years isn't limited resources. Up until the start of last year Everton had limited resources, and yet were still able to push us for a european cup place. So don't start saying we haven't had funds. We're the 2nd biggest side in the England, and we're certainlly in the top ten most reconised clubs around the world, so our comerciall sales alone would pay for the majority of the squad. Limited funds my ar.se

How much money has rafa made by selling to spend that much? yes hes spent a lot but he has sold players in order for him to buy others whereas the top clubs havent had to and so the foundation has remained.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

If Benitez didn't sell a soul, he'd of still got that amount of money to spend. David Moores put his hand in his pocket more than most chairman and the Yanks have shown they're prepared to trust him (foolishly) with money in the transfer market.

[Kharhaz]

If Benitez didn't sell a soul, he'd of still got that amount of money to spend. David Moores put his hand in his pocket more than most chairman and the Yanks have shown they're prepared to trust him (foolishly) with money in the transfer market.

This season very possibly, im talking about the last 3 years as you mentioned. If he kept the players over the years he wouldnt have spent as much, which is a pretty obvious statement. David Moores had to step aside because the money just was not there to move the club forward.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Moores moved on because he couldn't afford the new ground, not players. Also if Benitez hadn't sold anybody since he arrived, he'd still have had as much money to spend.

[whylongball?]

I've said a couple of times in the last couple of weeks that whether or not Rafa stays or not depends on the direction the club is going in for the rest of this season. If it depends upon us mounting a sustained and realistic title challenge then this is probably his last season in my view, but if it depends on him showing that there is a real possibility that we could get there next season then he'll get a shot at season number five.

We're probably going to get a good indication of where the owners are coming from when the transfer window comes around. If they take the view that Rafa is not the man to take the club forward, then it wouldn't be that surprising to see him not backed so heavily in the transfer market.

The key is the direction between then and now. If we buy top class and top money Torres type players, will we still rest and rotate them after four or five games? Will we still change the formation, line-up and positions to the same extent we did at the start of this season and last? When the big guns come back and presumeably we win a few matches, will we still be so keen to alter the line up and risk the fluency, confidence, cohesion and rhythm of the team? Will we go to places like Blackburn, Pompey etc etc and really go for the wins, or will we go with the fear of losing an unbeaten run?

These things are key for me, because if we are to mount a title challenge under Rafa these issues need to be addressed. It's worth bearing in mind that the team had lost its way in terms of fluent attacking play long before the injuries kicked in, it was IMHO the constant changing of the line-up which contributed most to the undermining of our confidence. The Americans may well ask the question, what's the point in us giving you a wodge of cash to spend on top class players if you are'nt going to play them? It's a fair one.

As a footnote, not wanting to crank up the controversy particularly but I may as well ask the question. The press are predictably talking up the possibility of Mourinho replacing Rafa. Now I don't like the little ponce any more than the next man, special he certainly ain't, but were he to take over at the end of the season, would we have more or less chance of winning the Premiership? I don't think from a tactical point of view he is anywhere near Rafa's equal, and probably isn't in the transfer market either. My hunch is that he would try something really simplistic. He'd put his arm around Gerrard and tell him he is the best midfield player in the World, he'd tell Torres that he was the one player above all others that he wanted to sign when he was Chelsea manager, he'd do an interview whereby he'd call Alonso "the General", and say that Carra was the one centre half that Drogba hated playing against. The he'd probably go and play pretty much the same team in the first couple of months of the season. Hand on heart, would I want him as Liverpools manager? NO. Hand on heart do I think we'd have more chance of winning the Premiership with him in charge? yes.

damn its psychology and u hit it spot on mate

[Kharhaz]

Moores moved on because he couldn't afford the new ground, not players. Also if Benitez hadn't sold anybody since he arrived, he'd still have had as much money to spend.

And that comment defines the present day supporter. Not thinking of the future just how rafa isnt doing as well.

No he wouldnt have as much to spend. He couldnt afford the players rafa wanted, moores knew this and so did parry. Now we have, and now all we have are the "new age" supporters saying "Shame on him ! ", Ive been as polite as I possibly can to you and my final answer to your post is this. He has had one season to spend money and create a team and sign players he wants and because of his tactics and injurys we are unbeaten, yes we have drawn a lot of games, but we are still in the race. He has had to sell players to make up his own team, hes taken risks and failed but rather than persist with them he has offloaded them. Try not to find faults but answers because I like a lot of supporters on here are sick and tired of attitudes like yours. Comparisons to other managers are no go, Fergy was given time, so was Arsene, Rafa delivered beyond all our expectations. Lets guess the odd one out?

[crazyhorse]

The last two posts from Bigmick and Kharhaz are spot on. I wish others would be so considered before they post some of the dross that is on here (and i include myself in that remark sometimes)!