Liverpool FC Forum

[roberto green]

Ok, I can't really be arsed reading most of these posts... if I'm perfectly honest, the happy clappy attitude of some posters winds me up.

All I will say on the rotation issue... is yes its needed, you simply have to rest players to keep the fresh. But Rafa does it far to much. Simple as that, he often rotates for no reason and not sensibley either. Sometimes he thinks he can get away with it, ala Portsmouth and we end up with a bad result.

When under Houllier, we got to the quarters of the CL and finished second in the same season, the starting line up was the same nearly all the way through the season, with very few players rested, it happened, but not alot. The end of that sesaon I think we won 10 out of 11 in the league... with minimal rotation, playing around 50 games or so.

So what is the point in excessive rafatation?

Your like a broken record Stu..Houllier,Anelka,Ashton...blah blah blah!!Snooooze!

Same shi'te,different day should be your username!

No.

Mr "pesimistic smeghead" should be his user name

[Igor Zidane]

Ok, I can't really be arsed reading most of these posts... if I'm perfectly honest, the happy clappy attitude of some posters winds me up.

All I will say on the rotation issue... is yes its needed, you simply have to rest players to keep the fresh. But Rafa does it far to much. Simple as that, he often rotates for no reason and not sensibley either. Sometimes he thinks he can get away with it, ala Portsmouth and we end up with a bad result.

When under Houllier, we got to the quarters of the CL and finished second in the same season, the starting line up was the same nearly all the way through the season, with very few players rested, it happened, but not alot. The end of that sesaon I think we won 10 out of 11 in the league... with minimal rotation, playing around 50 games or so.

So what is the point in excessive rafatation?

That's a fare enough post stu , but the bit that does my head in is the part where you say "he often rotates for no reason",now that's poo and you know it is . Seriously do you think he rotates for no reason what so ever. Wether you agree with it or not ,he is doing it for a reason ,it's not just for the sake of it. There is some plan behind it (what that plan is none of us are privvy to), by all means mate disagree with who or how many,but don't just say he's rotating for no reason.

[Wilhelmsson]

1) You know, I'd still need to calculate this number myself to be fully convinced but, assuming it's right for a second, than yes I would say that that's a bit high for my liking. Having said that, I also think it's important to recognize that the number reflects changes from one match to the next which, at this point in the season, means changes from one competition to the next (from the Prem to the ChampionsLeague or Carling Cup etc.).  This gets at the heart of my question about Rafa's rotation policy which I asked last night: does Rafa's strategy of rotating for cup competitions have merit or does it hurt our league form? 


2) As for Torres, again I've said this many times but, in hindsight, I would have played him.  At the time, I thought it made sense to rest him, as he had played a lot for Spain and was apparently carrying a slight knock.  There were fitter strikers available and Rafa played them to protect Torres' fitness, which is the prime aspect of the rotation policy I support.  After all, everyone agrees with rotation when players aren't fit, we just don't always agree on when someone is not fit.  I know it's cliche and some hate to hear this but Rafa really is in a much better position to judge fitness than you or I, so I figured that there was a sound reason for not starting Torres that match. No guarantee that we would have got a better result, though: as the Wigan and Marseilles games have shown, we can also play poorly with Torres (and Gerrard, for that matter) in the line-up.

3) Now, this is an interesting point that I forgot to raise.  So, my research has revealed that Rafa has played both Torres and Kuyt in 5 of 7 league matches, but not always together (I don't have the numbers right in front of me).  It is certainly conceivable that strike partnerships are more important than individual starts and that Rafa should be in the business of selecting pairs of strikers and rotating the pairs.  I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on that.



4) I don't think it's solely due to tactics (opposition strengths and weaknesses) at all when Rafa rotates.  I think his primary consideration is the long-term fitness of the squad.  I think he feels that it's a long season with a lot of matches spread across the league and 3 cup competitions.  I think he feels that to play basically the same team (with maybe a change or two) in each successive game--be they in the league, or Champions League or a domestic cup--will burn the players out and lead to severe problems during the run in.  So, he's adopted a philosophy of rotating the squad between midweek matches and weekend matches.  So this really is the crux of the debate: if you agree that player burn-out is a real concern, you support (or at least tolerate) Rafa's degree of rotation.  If you think that the disruption to team fluidity is far worse than the risk of player burn-out, you oppose rotation.  Whatever your views on rotation, what I hope both sides can agree on is that Rafa is definitely prioritizing the league this season by playing stronger teams on the weekends.

5) What happens when the 17th place in the French league comes to Anfield with two of their best players injured?  It seems like a sensible enough time to play a weakened team, no?

This is a very good response, Bob; I’ll keep the post to a reasonable length this time so I don’t send you to sleep.

1) It’s nice to see someone who is fond of rotation notice that perhaps Benitez is chopping and changing a little too much, it proves that not everyone on the forum is a stubborn, old mule.

The number of changes Benitez has made does indeed include cup competitions, I doubt anyone will dispute the fact, but 12 matches into the season rotation should be kept to a minimum. FWIW a strong team with a few changes here and there due to injury, suspension and fatigue should be played in both the Premiership and the Champions League.

It’s little surprise when Rafa makes six changes to his Champions League line up and then makes a further four a few days later that the team at times suffers from the continental bug.

Rafa’s rotation from cup competition to league competition usually has adverse effects on the team’s league performances and results (see paragraph above). It’s not rotation itself which is the problem.

2) A slight knock IMO is little to worry about IMO, if Torres has dislocated his elbow then fair enough, I would have supported his absence from the team which started against Portsmouth. It would seem that Benitez was thinking of six months down the line and not the present time, which is somewhat ironic when he states he only, focuses on one match at a time and not matches six months down the timeline.

When a player is injured then I support rotation, but if a player has a stubbed toe or has a few cuts and bruises does he really need to be rested? Rafa is better qualified to judge if a player if a player is healthy enough to play or not, but Benitez’s definition of unfit probably contrasts mine. To me an injury is something severe and not a slight bang on the leg, a Terry Butcher styled bang to head with plenty of blood is a serious injury, not a lump on a players leg.

I’ve not disputed the fact that with Torres’ inclusion into the starting line up the team is not guaranteed maximum points, but for the manager to make a team selection he did against Portsmouth at the Fortress of Fratton is a) An indication the manager is content with a possible point b) the manager has gone into the match with a negative attitude and c) the manager is wrapping his players in cotton wool for six months time. I could of course be off the mark on this, Bob; I’m simply stating how it seems from my view point.

3) Rotating strikers is like rotating your CM and CB pairing, it’s a risk at the best of times; Benitez should be looking to forge a partnership between two strikers who in turn can build a deep understanding with one another, rather than just rotating four strikers to a) keep them content and b) with the opposition defence in mind.

If you want to hear people’s views on point #3, Bob, why don’t you start a topic about it? It would be much more interesting than the mass topics of rotation being posted and discussed on here at the moment.

4) I’m sure his rotation is not solely down to the opposition and their strengths and weaknesses, but in many ways it does seem as though Rafa likes playing a strategic game of chess to try and outwit his opposition. I’d rather he made the opposition think about the team more than the team thinking about the opposition, if that makes sense?

I can understand and accept that the manager wants every nook and cranny to run smoothly over the season, but what has happened to Benitez’s philosophy of taking one match at a time and not focusing on the future? Wrapping the players up in cotton wool, so they are healthy enough for the run in, not only can have negative repercussions on present results and the continuity of the team, but it can harm the clubs title challenge (last season is an example). Benitez’s rotation has also led the team to be twenty or so points behind the league leaders in the run in.

Of course players also have to take responsibility, the team was never good enough to win the league, last season or the season before or the season before that.

I can understand why Benitez feels that using the same players for more than a handful of matches can burn those particular players' out, but Liverpool has a large squad now and when a player suffers from fatigue then the manager can bring someone else in. Surely it’s better to play the strongest eleven or a strong squad for a handful of matches, where there is consistency and continuity than making twenty changes in those handfuls of matches?

You’re crux is pretty much accurate with how I feel about rotation; I’ll support rotation when it is needed if there is an injury, suspension or fatigue. I’ll even support rotation when the team has qualified from say the Champions League group stage with a match or two left, but I don’t like seeing, six changes a match. Rafa is indeed prioritising the league, but he is also taking his eye of off the Champions League in the process. The most successful teams in the land are able to launch assaults domestically and in Europe.

5) It depends on how many points the team has, the position the team is in and the amount of matches left to play. If Liverpool has qualified top of the GS and will go through, then I’d support a slightly weakened team. If Liverpool is sitting in #2 with three points behind Porto (for example) with a higher goal difference than Porto, you can bet I’ll be advocating the strongest possible eleven starts the match.

[bigmick]

I remember on one of my frequent meanders into the surreal, recently predicting that the All Blacks adherance to a rotational policy would result in them not winning the Rugby World Cup despite being palpably the best team on display. That it proved to be a good guess is by the by but the news and the causes of their worst ever showing in a World Cup is dominating the news over here.

If you listen to the pundits, the internet discussion forums and the phone ins it is like being on here after a bad performance. People talking about cohesion, teamwork, fluency etc just goes to show it's not just in football where if you put eleven blokes into a unit and ask them to do something, the more often they work together they'll improve. They even dug up an interview with Anton Oliver (all black hooker and a very intelligent, articulate bloke) where he talks about the system and how it "certainly takes some getting used to". Once he retires from International Rugby and can say what he really thinks, I'll post up his opinions then.

[taff]

I almost feel sorry for Rafa if I am honest we have had the unfortunate injuries to two of our most importnat players Alonso and Agger.

But if he wasnt a stubborn old goat and swallowed his pride now and again holds his hands up and says Hey I got it wrong.
Maybe a lot of people in their critisim's would be a lot kinder and say fair play.

I dont want him to leave he is the best manager we have had IMO since Kenny and I am extremly greatful for all he has done for us.

He could be one of the greatest Liverpool managers ever if he cuts out his mistakes.

Will he though?

Thats the question.

I dont enjoy being critical about him I dont enjoy it and if I where sat in a pub and a none Liverpool fan abused him I would go for him.

At the end of the day we all only want whats best for the club and whats worrying is we dont know anything about these new owners, our club has always been patient where managers are concerned I would hate it if the new owners went looking elsewhere after everything Rafa has brought to the club.

I just feel he is putting unessary pressure on himself, maybe the clubs gone a lot bigger now with the new players and their fancy cars, latest wag on their arms, some thinking they are better than they actually are, and getting complacent.
Rafa has always worked on a tight budget at Valencia his other clubs and here to some extent maybe its a learning curve for him also.

I want him to be our manager for the next ten years, its always hurtfull when Real Madrid come sniffing my @rse goes.
If he can cut out the silly mistakes swallow his pride then there is no reason why he shouldnt be our manager for the next 10 or so years.

Its up to him the ball is in his court.

This is my favourite reply to be honest.  I didnt want another debate but wanted to put my view on the forum.  I understand the people who are critical but I genuinely believe we will be contenders at the end of the season, not a In Rafa we trust blindly but in Rafa I trust, meaning this is my view.

I am happy to bring back this topic at the end of the season as I have faith that we will be there.

Of course Im not happy with the draw today but neither is Rafa from what I understand.  Every team has a blip and I trust him to get on with the job and put it right. 

I dont consider myself a lemming happily walking to the edge of a cliff, I have seen a few seasons of football and it is judged at the end of the season not on a seemingly daily basis by a media hungry for any debate.

The point about the All Blacks made by Bigmick, well thats what the New Zealand RFU wanted to strengthen the squad and before yesterday they were hugely praised for their methods but they lost a one off game.

It is now Rafas job to rally the squad and ignore the media and get the players focused again. I cannot agree at all with calls for his head, history has taught us that clubs that do that tend to get worse.  He will be judged at the end of the season by me and not before.