Liverpool FC Forum

[GYBS]

Villa plus Silva would be perfect - offer Valencia 60 mil for the pair of them .

[tubby]

To be honest I dont think either of them will come to the Premiership but anyway we do not have that sort of money. Hopefully with all these new sponsors coming on board it could mean more money for Rafa to waste.....cough cough I mean spend.

[Effes]

Don't you think that after 5 years and a total spend of £200million, we should be a little further down the line than we are? We are quite a number of players short of having a strong first team and adequate backup, especially when you consider that in 2006 we "seemed" to be only a couple of players short.

I know we have all been waiting for the missing piece of the jigsaw to arrive, but maybe its not the missing piece of the jigsaw thats the problem, maybe its the person thats trying to put it together?

Net Spend 04 - 09 Purchased    Sold            Nett         Per Season 

1 Manchester City £171,020,000 £49,900,000 £121,120,000 £24,224,000 
2 Chelsea £248,450,000 £117,300,000 £131,150,000 £26,230,000 
3 Liverpool £212,490,000 £102,030,000 £110,460,000 £22,092,000 
4 Manchester United £176,450,000 £76,050,000 £100,400,000 £20,080,000 
5 Tottenham £226,100,000 £137,250,000 £88,850,000 £17,770,000 
6 Aston Villa £95,150,000 £21,255,000 £73,895,000 £14,779,000 

s@int, I think it's important that we consider only Net spend.
Surely if Rafa bought Sissoko for £5.8M then sold him for £8M, that should be taken into consideration and added to the figures. Conversely, if sold for a loss it would impact on the "Net" spend accordingly.

I agree with your general comment though - I would expect our squad to be more "bolstered" than it is after 5 seasons in charge.
Finding ourselves with just one quality striker (Kuyt doesn't count), threadbare in the right back position, and desparate for a right-sided/winger - it is clear the squad is no where near where it should be.

[account deleted by request]

Don't you think that after 5 years and a total spend of £200million, we should be a little further down the line than we are? We are quite a number of players short of having a strong first team and adequate backup, especially when you consider that in 2006 we "seemed" to be only a couple of players short.

I know we have all been waiting for the missing piece of the jigsaw to arrive, but maybe its not the missing piece of the jigsaw thats the problem, maybe its the person thats trying to put it together?

Net Spend 04 - 09 Purchased    Sold            Nett         Per Season 

1 Manchester City £171,020,000 £49,900,000 £121,120,000 £24,224,000 
2 Chelsea £248,450,000 £117,300,000 £131,150,000 £26,230,000 
3 Liverpool £212,490,000 £102,030,000 £110,460,000 £22,092,000 
4 Manchester United £176,450,000 £76,050,000 £100,400,000 £20,080,000 
5 Tottenham £226,100,000 £137,250,000 £88,850,000 £17,770,000 
6 Aston Villa £95,150,000 £21,255,000 £73,895,000 £14,779,000 

s@int, I think it's important that we consider only Net spend.
Surely if Rafa bought Sissoko for £5.8M then sold him for £8M, that should be taken into consideration and added to the figures. Conversely, if sold for a loss it would impact on the "Net" spend accordingly.

I agree with your general comment though - I would expect our squad to be more "bolstered" than it is after 5 seasons in charge.
Finding ourselves with just one quality striker (Kuyt doesn't count), threadbare in the right back position, and desparate for a right-sided/winger - it is clear the squad is no where near where it should be.

The main problem with Net Spend is it assumes that when he came to the club he started from scratch.

E.G. A new manager takes over tomorrow, he sells Torres, Gerrard, Alonso and Masch for say £150million and buys 15 cr@p new players for £200million. He then says but I have only wasted £50million.

What it doesn't say he has also wasted 4 top quality players.

When Rafa took over we already had some value in the squad, players like Baros (£8million), Cisse (£7.5million) Owen (£10million) etc etc  surely they had value and should be included in ANY total, rather than just being a negative number in the Net figure?

I would quite willingly accept a net figure that EXCLUDED the sales of Houlliers players.

[Effes]

Fair point s@int, so the Net spend is bearing in mind his sales of Houllier's players.

He didnt get much for them though did he?

Baros went for only about £3M, Hamman free?, Cisse peanuts, Smicer free, Dudek peanuts, Traore £2m (thank feck),
Henchoz nowt, Kewell nowt, Finnan £1M
- so, taking into account what you say, which is fair enough - we didnt get much for his players.
So again, I think Net spend is a fiar yardstick to measure Rafa's spending.
(The figures I stated are off the top of me head, so could be well wrong)

[account deleted by request]

If you add them all up it comes to a substantial amount mate ...... the three I quoted above come to £25million (Baros should have been £6.5million not £8million as I put). Murphy and Diouf another £5m or so, Diarra another £2million, Traore, Kirkland, Mellor, Warnock, Guthrie,Riise another £20million, Pongole , Le Tallec....... the list goes on mate.

[GYBS]

Should the fact he got so much for then in the first place count for something ? Also how much of the 200 mil went on kids for the future ? and how many of them are really any better than what we have in our first team ?maybe some better than back ups but how many of them would of been willing to stay as back up ?

[account deleted by request]

Should the fact he got so much for then in the first place count for something ? Also how much of the 200 mil went on kids for the future ? and how many of them are really any better than what we have in our first team ?maybe some better than back ups but how many of them would of been willing to stay as back up ?

Not really when you consider their worth before Rafa came.

[account deleted by request]

So if we consider Rafa has spent about £160million or so "true" net I would think thats about right ........ give or take a few million.


Net also adds a positive view to manager who use the revolving door policy rather than the manager who gets he best out of his players.

e.g. Hamann from a net point of view is £11.5million in £0 out. It gives no value to the long service he has given.

Whereas under Rafa with his quick in quick out policy using NET you get Sissoko  £5.5million in £8million out.

Using GROSS also gives no benefit for long service BUT gives no bonus for quick in quick out EITHER.

[GYBS]

Im sorry saint but selling players for what they are worth isnt rafas fault - hamman went for free cause he was coming up to 34 etc - the others went for what they were worth not what they were bought for because gh overspent on many players .

[bigmick]

Well the proof is there for all to see in the spends table. We've shelled out 200 million quid while Rafa has been the manager, and where are we? It's probably worth noting that in the midst of our team we've had an ever present centre half who Rafa didn't have to buy, and possibly the best player in the World today who Rafa didn't have to buy either.

How much we have spent under Rafa is surely not debateable because S@int has simply posted up the widely accepted stats from transfers.com or wherever else it is. They use them on every internet site and in every sensible newspaper in the UK. Similarly, the net spend relative to other clubs isn't really debateable either I don't think.

Much more important though than the spend, net or otherwise, is what we've got for our money. Too many TINA's (there is no alternative's) for my liking. Alvarro Arbeloa is a reasonable fullback, probably in the top six or seven right backs in the Prem I think, but we have no replacement if he is unavailable. So far this season, we have used two centre backs (both of them first choice), and our defensive sitter to cover for him. Two of those three players were probably playing there for the first time in their careers, or at least it looked like it anyway.

Albert Riera is a decent left midfielder, in the top four in the Premiership perhaps, but if he unavailable we have no alternative. So far this season we've played our first choice left fullback there, a bloke who nobody knows what his best position is but we all know it ain't left midfield (he's been playing very well on the right of midfeild to tell the truth), and a gangster rapper.

Torres is obviously World Class, and IMHO the best striker of his type in the league. If he is injured though (which incredibly does happen from time to time) we have the choice of Kuyt, Egg Nog, or the enedifying spectacle of watching the previously mentioned rude boy "larging it up big stylee" if of course he's in the mood.


Three first team slots where we don't have a credible alternative to our first choice. Had the young kid Insua not emerged out of the fog this season it'd be four, because Dossena isn't a credible alternative to Aurelio. I may be being charitable counting Cavalierio as being a decent replacement for Reina as well, but lets face it if he isn't we've got about nine other blokes so one of them ought to be able to stop shots and things.


All in all though, and I've said this many times, whoever comes in next season needs to spend majorly, and undertake another squad re-alignment. After 5 years and 200 million quid, it ain't good enough.

[GYBS]

what do you mean whoever comes in next season ? Sorry mick but Rafa is being offered a new contract so as much as people want him out it looks like he wants to stay and the owners want him to stay so i hope and i really do hope that when he is here next season that people support him . we all know there is some gaps , we all know there is some areas that need improving , we all know some signings didnt work but most of us also know that rafa hasnt been able to shop in the same places as other teams due to the fact while he has spent money there is only the odd few times he has been able to get a top player for top dollar - other times he has had to spread that money out over a number of players who werent world class - and he has had to do that to try and strengthen the squad to compete on more than one front . Its not like he has had the spending power off the mancs in terms of 30 mil for this player and 30 mil for that player . everyone has seen that . while we went and bought kuyt for 10 mil chelsea bought schev for 30 mil and drogba for 20 odd miland the mancs went and got rooney for 30 mil berbatov for 30 mil and tevez for a possible 30 mil . the mancs and chelsea havent had to thinly spread the money to buy a squad - we have .

[The Saint]

Jeez Chelsea have an old squad lol.

yep 2 seasons then they gonna need massive rebuild I think and with mr russia him self pocketless its gonna be very funny time indeed.

I expect them to fall off back to there old 7-8th finishs by 2011

I was thinking the same Blackburn Syndrome, Walker bought them there Prem Title but they never built the infa structure to maintain their position

[bigmick]

what do you mean whoever comes in next season ? Sorry mick but Rafa is being offered a new contract so as much as people want him out it looks like he wants to stay and the owners want him to stay so i hope and i really do hope that when he is here next season that people support him . we all know there is some gaps , we all know there is some areas that need improving , we all know some signings didnt work but most of us also know that rafa hasnt been able to shop in the same places as other teams due to the fact while he has spent money there is only the odd few times he has been able to get a top player for top dollar - other times he has had to spread that money out over a number of players who werent world class - and he has had to do that to try and strengthen the squad to compete on more than one front . Its not like he has had the spending power off the mancs in terms of 30 mil for this player and 30 mil for that player . everyone has seen that . while we went and bought kuyt for 10 mil chelsea bought schev for 30 mil and drogba for 20 odd miland the mancs went and got rooney for 30 mil berbatov for 30 mil and tevez for a possible 30 mil . the mancs and chelsea havent had to thinly spread the money to buy a squad - we have .

Sorry, slip of the typo. I've said many times I am absolutely certain Rafa wilkl still be here for at least another two seasons. By "whoever comes in" I meant to say "whoever is in charge".

Just to reiterate, I think it will be a massive disaster for the club in the long term, but I think Rafa will very soon sign a new contract.


As for the "not shopping in the same places" thing we're just going to have to disagree on that I'm afraid. The market in which football players change hands doesn't include a shop which you need a membership card for, there isn't some posh Matalan at FIFA where only the best players get bought.

The way it works, is you offer a fee for a player, and if the club accepts the bid, you sign him. A bit like the Robbie Keane transfer, we offered Spurs 20 million quid, they accepted the bid and we bought him. Much like Manchester United offered 30 million quid for Berbatov, they accepted and Man Utd bought him. We both shopped in the same place you see on that occasion, Spurs's first team. As I recall, at the time many thought we had bought the better player for a better price (Rafa even said so) while some of our own fans said Berbatov was a disaster. He was getting compared to all kinds of people on here as I recall. But anyway all clubs shop in the same place, on the open market.

If you look at left backs, once again Manchester United bought their in Europe, on the open market for 5 million quid. Likewise, we bought ours, in Europe, for 7 million quid. the same market you see, although not the same player obviously.

We all shop in the same place, it's just that some do it better.

[GYBS]

Ok the mick to please you then Rafa hasnt been able to shop for the top quality players costing over the 20 mil mark on that many occasions - namely twice - where as our counterparts are able to whenever they want and whenever they feel like it - rafa has had to work with a budget and include players sales and in that budget has had to get a certain amount of players so he has been unable to put in these 20 odd mil pound bids for the top players . look at simao we offered 10 they wanted 12 we then offered 12 they wanted more and we couldnt afford it so we had to buy pennant who was cheaper cause we could afford it but not as good - same as alves - we could of had him for 15 mil but they wanted 20 and we couldnt afford that price becuase we dont have the funds in the backroom that chelsea used to have and the mancs have got .

Ok you can be pedantic as you want but you know exactly what it means when people state that we cant shop or buy the same priced players as the mancs and chelsea . the evidence has been there for years and years now .