Liverpool FC Forum

[fivecups]

Wage bill BBC from the 2007/08 financial accounts

Chelsea - £172.1m (£132.9m)
Manchester Utd - £121.1m (£92.3m)
Arsenal - £101.3m (£89.7m)
Liverpool - £90.4m (£77.6m)
Newcastle Utd - £74.6m (£56.7m)
(2006/07 wages in brackets)

http://www.deloitte.com/dtt....00.html

Highlights
http://www.deloitte.com/dtt....hts.pdf

[fivecups]

Excellent post from BHB added to this thread:

In order to try and dispell a few media fuelled myths that sections of our fanbase seem to have swollowed; here's the full list of players he's signed since he's been at the club (please read the summary below):

2004/05

£2m - Josemi: peanuts and was moved on in a swap for Kromkamp 18 months later
£1.5m - Antonio Nunez: part of the Michael Owen deal and filled a gap for a while. Peanuts.
£10.7m - Xabi Alonso: Massive success and sold for £30m+ in the summer when he wanted to leave
£6m - Luis Garcia: Massive success and sold to Athletico Madrid for £4m
Free - Pelligrino: Stop gap that allowed us to rest Sami for league games, benefitting us massively in Istanbul. Now on the coaching staff.
£6.3m - Fernando Morientes: Pretty much everyone made up when we signed him, top class, but never settled. Sold for £3m to Valencia.
£1m - Scott Carson: One the most highly rated young keepers around. Lost out through injury and signing of Reina when Dudek left the club. Sold for £3.25m.

Total bought: £27.5m

Free - Marcus Babbel: Released to Stuttgart at the end of his career.
£2.5m - Danny Murphy: Xabi Alonso signed to fill the role Murphy had in the side
£8.5m - Michael Owen: Wouldn't sign a new contract and sold before he left on a free. He's done nothing since that is a masterstroke with hindsight.
Free - Stephane Henchoz: Released to Celtic at the end of his career

Total sold: £11m

A total of £16.5m net spend in his first year at the club, with the vast majority of that being spent on Xabi Alonso.

2004/05 net spend: £16.5m

2005/06

£240,000 - Antonio Barragan: Kid for the future. Sold for £675,000 to Deportivo a year later.
Free - Boudewijn Zenden: Signed for nothing and released for nothing. Did a job for us.
£6m - Pepe Reina: In the top 3 or 4 keepers in the world now and still young. One of Rafa's best signings.
£5.6m - Momo Sissoko: Brilliant for a few years, had that eye injury and sold to Juventus when his form dipped for £8.2m. Replaced by Mascherano.
£7m - Peter Crouch: One signing I did question but proved to be a great bit of business. Turned him from a laughing stock into an international. Sold for £11m.
Unkown - Miki Roque: Kid bought for peanuts. Sold again for an unknown amount.
£150,000 - Jack Hobbs: Highly rated 16yr old signed from Lincoln. Didn't progress as hoped and sold to Leicester for a reported £1.5m, although figure not confirmed.
£190,000 Besian Idrizaj: No idea who he is
£1.5m - Mark Gonzales: Cheap player to provide back up for the left wing. Sold for £3.5m to Real Betis.
Exchange - Paul Anderson: Swapped for John Welsh. Sold for £250,000.
Exchange - Jan Kromkamp: Swapped for Josemi. Later sold for £1.75m
£5.8m - Daniel Agger: Blighted by injuries but potentially top class and great signing for the money.
£250,000 - David Martin: Young reserve keeper
Free - Robbie Fowler: Pay as you play deal and no risk involved. Scored a few goals. Released in the summer.

Total bought: £26.73

Free - Vladimir Smicer: Out of contract and released. Played a small part in Istanbul.
£3.5m - El Hadji Diouf: The best £3.5m Rafa has ever recieved.
Free - Pellegrino: Filled the gap in the last 5 months of the previous season, not good enough and released.
£2m - Alou Diarra: Sold for £2m. One of Houllier's buys.
£2m - Antonio Nunez: Bought for £1.5m and now sold for £2m when didn't work out.
£6.5m - Milan Baros: A Houllier signing sold at a profit. He's done nothing since.
Exchange - John Welsh: Swapped for Paul Anderson
Exchange - Josemi: Swapped for Kronkamp.

Total sold: £14m

2005/06 net spend: £12.73m
2006/07

£6m - Craig Bellamy: Good signing and later sold for £7.5m to fund Torres deal.
£2m - Gabriel Palletta: Played a few league cup games, not good enough and sold for £1.2m
Free - Fabio Aurelio: Very injury prone but a good player when fit. Great signing for nothing.
£6.7m - Jermaine Pennant: Second choice after missing out on Alves. Ran his contract down and released. Attitude stank.
£9m - Dirk Kuyt: Has his critics, but has been brilliant for the money. 15 goals last season from wide and vital to the way we play. Ultimate pro. Great signing.
£200,000 - Nabil El Zhar: Few cameos last season and improving. Injured now. Promising still. Peanuts.
£750,000 - Astrit Ajdarevic: No idea who he is, and released on a free to Leicester.
Loan - Daniele Padelli: Reserve keeper, made one appearance and never seen again.
Undisclosed - Jordy Brouwer: Young reserve.
£2.5m - Alvaro Arbeloa: Bargain signing, great service for a few years and sold for £3.5m when running his contract down.
Loan - Javier Mascherano: Rescued from West Ham, now one of the best defensive midfielders in the world and will probably be sold to Barca this summer for a massive profit. Paid £18.6m for him a year later at end of loan deal.

Total bought: £27.15m

£200,000 - Zak Whitbread: Youngster
Undisclosed - Bruno Cheyrou: Houllier flopped, sold for a reported £1.5m.
£3m - Fernando Morientes: Didn't work out. Cut his losses.
Free - Didi Hamann: Great servant, released at the end of his career
£675,000 - Antonio Barragan: Paid £240,000 for him.
£2m - Djimi Traore: Houllier signing and daylight robbery getting £2m for him
£500,000 - Neil Mellor: Signed as a kid and did a job for a while. Not good enough and released.
£1.75m - Jan Kromkamp: Nunez bought for £2m, swapped for him, who then sold for £1.75m. Stop gaps at minimal expense.
£525,000 - Darren Potter: Acadamy lad, not good enough and robbery getting that much for him.
£1.5m - Steven Warnock: Probably sold to cheap and looks a mistake with hindsight. Good squad player.
Free - Salif Diao: The clearout of Houllier's flops continues.

Total sold: £10.15m

2006/07 net spend: £17m

2007/08


£5m - Lucas Leiva: Brazilian player of the year when signed. Could still go either way but a lot to prove.
Undisclosed - Krisztian Nemeth: Promising youngster currently out on loan in Athens.
£270,000 - Mikel San Jose Dominguez: Youngester plays in the reserves.
£1.8m - Sebastian Leto: Left winger signing but refused a work permit. Sold for £3m.
£20.2m - Fernando Torres: Bargain of the century
Free - Andriy Voronin: Free transfer to strengthen the squad. Plays well in Germany, garbage over here.
£5m - Yossi Benayoun: Took a while to settle but now a key player. Superb signing and an absolute bargain.
£11.5m - Ryan Babel: Highly rated dutch international. Absolute waste of space. Bad signing on reflection, but nobody knew how he'd turn out. Still got potential but he can't be arsed.
Undisclosed - Charles Itandje: Back up keeper signed for peanuts. Now released.
£1.3m - Emiliano Insua: Youngster who is now a full Argentinian international and massive potential. Bargain.
£6.5m - Martin Skrtel: Been off form this season so far, but brilliant last year and a good signing for the money.
£18.6m - Javier Mascherano: Completion of loan deal

Total bought: £70.7m

£2.7m – Florent Simana-Pongolle: Houllier youngster sold wanting first team football.
£100,000 – Daniel O’Donnell: Kid sold
Free – Jerzy Dudek: Released at end of contract
Free - Zenden: Released at end of contract
Free – Robbie Fowler: Released at end of contract
£4m – Luis Garcia: Wanted to return to Spain. Great service.
£6m – Djibril Cisse: Houllier signing sold to part fund Torres deal.
£7.5m – Craig Bellamy: Sold at profit to part fund Torres deal
£3.5m – Mark Gonzales: Signed for £1.5m and sold when didn’t work out.
£1.2m – Gabriel Palletta: Bought for £2m but never worked out. Young defender.
£3.5m – Chris Kirkland: Houllier signing. Injury prone and wanted first team football.
£8.2m – Momo Sissoko: Great signing, good service, sold when lost his form at a profit.

Total sold: £36.7m

2007/08 net spend: £34m

2008/09

Free – Philip Degen: Garbage, but free.
£7m - Andrea Dossena: Italian international left back. Hasn’t settled. Bad signing.
£3.5m – Diego Cavalieri: Reserve keeper. Only played league cup games so far.
£1.5m – David N’gog: Young French striker. Promising.
£19m – Robbie Keane: Everyone made up when we signed him. Didn’t work out and sold back to Spurs for £16m.
£8m - Albert Riera: Spanish international. Started well but jury still out.

Total bought: £39m

£4m – John Arne Riise: Good servant but form tailed off. Snapped their hands off at £4m.
Free – Harry Kewell: Harry who?
Undisclosed – Anthony Le Tallec: Houllier youngster finally released. Fee not known.
£11m – Peter Crouch: Laughing stock bought for £7m. Great signing. Wanted first team football.
£2.25m – Danny Guthrie: Youngster from Acadamy thought not good enough.
£3.25m – Scott Carson: Injury prone and Reina now first choice. Sold at profit.
Undisclosed – Steve Finnan: Sold for a fee believed to be £1m
£16m – Robbie Keane: Didn’t work out.
Undisclosed – Jack Hobbs: Young defender that didn’t progress. Sold for believed to £1.5m.

Total sold: £36.5m

2008/09 net spend: £2.5m


2009/10

£17.5m – Glen Johnson: Big fee, but has been brilliant so far.
£17.1m - Alberto Aquilani: Injured so far but meant to be a class act. Highly rated in Italy.
£2m – Sotirios Kyrgiakos: Last minute signing to fill Hyypia’s shoes. Only money we had to spend.
£160,000 – Daniel Ayala: Young defender, played a few times this season and looked promising.

Total bought: £36.76m

£250,000 – Paul Anderson: Youngster that didn’t progess.
Free – Jermaine Pennant: Out of contract. Poor signing.
Free – Miki Roque: No idea who he is. Bought for peanuts.
£3m – Sebastian Leto: Signed for £1.8m but didn’t get a work permit. Had to sell.
£3.5m – Alvaro Arbeloa: Wanted to leave and out of contract in the summer.
£30m – Xabi Alonso: Wanted to leave. Bought for £10.7m. Great signing.

Total sold: £36.75m

2009/10 net spend: £10,000


Total Players Bought: £228,976,000
Total Players Sold: £145,100,000

Total Net Spend: £83,876,000


So, that’s a total spend of just over £83m in 5 years at the club. An average of £16.6m a year.

The vast majority of his signings have been sold at profit, or if still at the club, are worth a lot more than we paid for them. Exceptions being Babel and Dossena, but we’ll still get decent fees for them when sold as they’re full internationals.

A lot of the signings above have been stepping stones in rebuilding the squad, gradually improving it by replacing players with better ones. Our league positions over the past 5 years and the improvement in our league positions and points totals show the progression.

2004/05: Finished 5th – 58 pts
2005/06: Finished 3rd – 82 pts
2006/07: Finished 3rd – 68 pts
2007/08: Finished 4th – 76 pts
2008/09: Finished 2nd – 86 pts

Is it any coincidence that the progression seems to have stopped this summer? Look at the transfer activity above for this year and it might explain why.

We have a wage bill that is the 5th highest in the league. We can’t afford to pay players £70,000 to be sat on the bench like United and Chelsea can.

Rafa Benitez’ record with signings at the top end of the market is nothing short of brilliant. Robbie Keane being the only flop, but he was sold 6 months later and only a small financial hit taken on that mistake. Rick Parry agreed the fee for buying him in the first place, and common knowledge Rafa wasn’t happy with it; feeling it was far too high.

Where has this myth come from that he’s wasted money on players? Have a look through the lists above and try to point them out. There isn’t many.

The ones that haven’t worked out he’s moved on, and not very often has he made a financial loss on them.

The squad is now worth a hell of a lot more than the one he inherited, and that £83m net spend over 5 years is easily offset by the increased value of the squad. He’d recoup nearly all of that through the sale of Torres alone!

He’s worked absolute wonders with the money he’s had to spend. Then take into account the massive amounts of money he’s self generated by reaching the latter stages of the CL every season. Two final appearances, one win. That £83m he’s spent he’s earned the right to spend.

And when comparing it to what United have spent in the same period is flawed, as they already had a title winning squad and all the foundations in place. They weren’t rebuilding from scratch like we were. It also doesn’t take into account their massive wage bill.

When comparing to Chelsea, they spent all their money before Rafa came to the club and just topping up an already established squad.

Man City have spent more than double in the past 12 months than Rafa Benitez has in his 5 year reign.

Do some people still want to get rid of him? If so, you’ve been listening to Martin Tyler's Monkey and the hairy-handed halfwit for too much and unable to look at the facts yourself to form an opinion.

Every manager makes tactical mistakes. Every manager makes mistakes in the transfer market. Despite what the press seem to think; Rafael Benitez appears to make less mistakes than most.

We’re expected to win the league and European Cup on a budget and wage bill that is entitled to finish 4th or 5th in the league. We’ve been overachieving under Rafael Benitez, not underachieving.

I’m not even going to mention the environment he’s working in under them two clowns.

You’ll only miss him when he’s gone….

[fivecups]

Recent Tomkins article on spending:

By my calculations, Benítez has bought 42 first team players (therefore excluding a load of teenagers brought to the Academy, most of them for negligible fees, and many of the failures sold on for similar amounts, with plenty still with a chance of breaking through).

For those 42 players he has paid £232m (or will do, if all appearance clauses on current playing staff met).

Those who have subsequently been moved on were sold for £106m, with some also having sell-on clauses in place that could see further money come Liverpool’s way.

The current value of the squad, excluding all homegrown players, is, by my calculations, £217m.

This includes what many believe to be a conservative estimate on Torres’ worth, at £60m, with Manchester City having supposedly made a £70m bid. So I am not inflating figures to make a point.

This means that for that £232m, the value of his investment now stands at a whopping £323m. (Click link to see full list)

None of this means that Liverpool have a better squad than, say, City, Chelsea or United. Chelsea’s, however, is at its peak, with its worth seriously damaged by the age of their best players. That means they are still a great team, and full of experience, but there is little sell-on value should a manager need to sell in order to buy (if Abramovich is no longer handing over £500m cheques).

It does, however, mean that Benítez has spent his money wisely – although all managers sign their fair share of duds. However, closer inspection shows that he has also signed plenty of world-class players whose values have soared.

Unfortunately, a need to redirect transfer funds back into the club’s coffers, and the relatively low wage bill – the real killer of the Reds’ title ambitions, according to various football economists – mean that the club is unable to match some of the fans’ ambitions.

By my calculations, Benítez has bought 42 first team players (therefore excluding a load of teenagers brought to the Academy, most of them for negligible fees, and many of the failures sold on for similar amounts).

Okay, let’s get down to basics. There are two main ways of judging a transfer: success on the pitch, and money received in a sale.

While the former is paramount, the latter affects what a manager does in the future; buy a player but sell him for a profit, and you can then stand a better chance of buying a superior one than at the time the first deal took place (unless the profit is purely down to transfer fees rising in general).

Yes, some wages will have been ‘wasted’, but in the case of squad players, this won’t be astronomically high, and ultimately, if you need back up, you need to pay them; so while Bolo Zenden wasn’t seen as a success, he ‘did a job’ for a Bosman.

We’ll start by looking at success on the pitch.

Of those 42, by my reckoning, 16 have been an outright success.

Of these, only David N’Gog might be debated, but for me, £1.5m for a teenage striker who has since scored five (now six) goals in around 500 (600) minutes of football has to be a success in anyone’s book.

Meanwhile, it’s early days for Glen Johnson, but on the evidence seen thus far he’ll be worth every penny, and more; while his form may drop off, his all-round play has been outstanding, and I can only go on what people have done up to the point of writing.

The next category is ‘Mixed’. I reckon that 15 players fit into this band. The majority are not really debatable, but obviously one or two will be.

I ummed and ahhed over Ryan Babel, but decided that although an almost washout last season, he did enough in his first season, and has shown enough desire and quality in recent games, to deserve redemption from the sin bin; but he’s obviously on borrowed time if things don’t go his way [since I wrote that, it's not looking good].

Alberto Aquilani obviously goes into here too, as no-one has seen him yet, but he has the ability to be a success, clearly. Albert Riera is also in this category, as his superb first five months have given way to some iffy form. But he has the ability to succeed, as shown with his form for Spain, and should be capable of promotion back to the top group.

Robbie Keane was not the disaster many suggested in purely footballing terms, though he was a disappointment for the fee (although that can all be recouped with clauses). He did okay, nothing more, nothing less.

Momo Sissoko is the one name from this group that I considered labelling a success, as he was excellent for two seasons, but his stock fell sharply in his third, to the point where the credibility of this piece might be attacked if he was included. (I would point out that he was sold to Juventus, for a good profit, but the naysayers won’t be swayed.) [Edit: Rafa told me that his serious eye injury affected his confidence, and his passing grew more wayward.]

Lucas Leiva is in this group, on account of his positive contributions in the last 10 months, but obviously he’s yet to win all the fans over after a poor start to last season; for a young £5m, 4th choice central midfielder, there’s no way he can be labelled a flop (yet, at least).

Flops, in footballing terms, include Jermaine Pennant, who came close to being considered Mixed after a brief bout of fine form (not least in Athens), as did Andrea Dossena based on his midfield showings last season. But Pennant drifted away from first team action, and Dossena has yet to really feature this season.

Fernando Morientes was another who might be worth considering as Mixed, as he did okay (much worse than Berbatov has so far for United?), but he failed to live up to his reputation. Mauricio Pellegrino was a big flop on the pitch, but a success off it, in terms of his experience and quasi-coaching. But on the field of play is what I’m basing this section on, so he’s a miss rather than a hit or a maybe.

So, it’s roughly an equal three-way split between successes, mixed-successes and failures. Which is pretty much what I’d expect. You win some, you lose some, and some are neither here nor there.

My previous estimated rule of thumb is that if a manager gets 10-20% of his major signings absolutely spot-on, he’ll have some team. (After all, some players will always fail because others are in the team and succeeding.)

Of Benítez’s 42 signings (many of whom, remember, were never designed to be first-team regulars), five have been stellar successes, and a sixth, Daniel Agger, has only been denied inclusion by injuries; free from injury, I have no hesitation in calling him world-class.

I’d also argue the case that Luis Garcia, given his goals, is also worthy of this group, and if he keeps up his 2009 form, Yossi Benayoun, too. But it’s between five and eight players who have been über-deals; or roughly one a year

What’s interesting is that the undisputed super five – Reina, Torres, Mascherano, Alonso and Johnson (what a 5-a-side team!) – cost, on average, £15m. So, while you can get top-class players for circa £6m (Reina, Agger, Skrtel, Garcia, Benayoun), it costs more to get a better chance of a superstar. That will be further proven later on.
Success per £ spent

When I looked at the Liverpool manager’s spending relating to success, a clear pattern emerged.

The average price of a Benítez flop is just £2.6m.

The average price of a Benítez mixed success is £5.9m.

The average price of a Benítez success is £7.9m.

The average price of a Benítez über-success, as mentioned earlier, is £14.9m, or a little under 50% of the British transfer record.

Now, tell me that there isn’t a correlation between spending and success?

(Although, of course, wages remain the main financial factor in success.)

Cheap and cheerful: you might get an Arbeloa, but of course, the odds are that you’ll more likely get a Nunez or Josemi. Still, you have to give every cheap player the benefit of the doubt, as you don’t know which one they’ll be. You can’t not pay £2.6m for Arbeloa because Josemi was rubbish for a similar fee.

Equally, paying £15m or more doesn’t guarantee a success; but it tends to improve the odds.

However, a manager has to weigh up the need for a strong squad against the needs for a strong XI. Invest £60m in two players and serious injuries can ruin your season. Invest £60m in six players, and you may be stronger all-round, but lacking that world-class edge. Benítez certainly started off by having to build a squad, so lacking in depth and talent was the one he inherited (which was far weaker than Houllier’s very fine 2001-era set-up.)

Over half of the money Benítez has spent has been on clear successes (£119m).

£83m has been spent on mixed successes, although Aquilani could be exempted as he’s mixed purely because he’s not had a chance to be either a success or a flop.

Less than £30m has been spent on outright flops; or approximately the price of Andrei Shevchenko. (Or Juan Sebastian Veron.)

Okay, so would you trust Benítez with your money?

Well, of those 42 players, 25 have either been sold for a profit or currently have an increased value.

(Incidentally, that does not include Dirk Kuyt, whose age counts again him in resale terms, but who is easily worth the £9m Liverpool paid for his services, and his improved reputation and extra-special fitness means the Reds could get £9m if they chose to sell right now.)

But get this.

With 16 signings holding their value, only FIVE players have left for a loss, or seen their value decrease. And one of those was an outright success (Luis Garcia), who was sold as he reached the end of his shelf-life; the Reds ‘lost’ £2.5m, but won the Champions League, and some £30m in the process.

That leaves Jermaine Pennant, Fernando Morientes, and of the current squad, Andrea Dossena and Ryan Babel.

Even their biggest detractors would say that free transfers Andriy Voronin and Philipp Degen would bring at least £1m into the coffers, if not more; last summer Hertha Berlin would have been prepared to pay £4m for Voronin had they qualified for the Champions League. Now, we don’t want players on Bosmans simply to sell for small profits, but Voronin is a handy, if unspectacular player; perfect squad man, really.

Josemi? Swapped for Kromkamp. Kromkamp? Sold for the £2m he was valued at as part of the swap deal. Nunez? Left for a small profit. Bellamy? Sold for a profit. Robbie Keane? Money back (if he plays enough games for Spurs). Paletta? Money back, sell-on clause. Leto? Profit and sell-on clause.

Crouch? £4m profit. Sissoko? Massive profit in percentage terms of the fee paid. Carson? £2m loan to Villa, £3.4m sale, for a £750,000 investment. Alonso? £20m pure profit.

Now, some of these profits are in line with inflation, although the transfer record is pretty stable right now, so not much is changing in terms of prices.

So it’s not like when Liverpool bought Stan Collymore for £8.5m and sold him for £7m, at a time when the record had already rocketed to £15m; making £7m a bigger loss in real terms. After all, a top striker in 1997 was worth twice as much money as in 1995, as everyone adjusted their values accordingly.

But the five players sold for a loss by Benítez, or whose values have dropped, cost £38m. They were sold, or are now worth, a total of £18m. This makes a £20m loss on Benítez’s ‘poor’ investments, although, of course, the values of Babel and Dossena could still rise or fall, and Garcia was a footballing success.

(Of course, this doesn’t include profits Rafa made on inherited signings, such as Djimi Traore, Florent Sinama-Pongolle, Danny Murphy, et al, nor the money recouped for players whose value was shot after Houllier’s dismissal, such as Biscan, Kirkland, Cheyrou, Le Tallec and El Hadji Diouf. So this is not about anyone but Benítez’s business.)
Overall Spending

In total, excluding the few hundred thousand spent here and there on this or that youth player, and ignoring money recouped, I make it that Benítez has spent around £230m (click to view Ins and Outs).

From his own signings who were subsequently sold, he has thus far raised £105m.

The value of the current squad, excluding inherited players (therefore not counting Carragher and Gerrard), is around the £220m mark.

In other words, the £230m Benítez has spent is now ‘worth’ around £325m.

Since 2004, the average price of a player has risen by around 10% if based on the transfer record; therefore ‘inflation’ would mean that £230m should be worth £243m.

Now, the current squad values are purely my own subjective take on the matter. A player is, after all, only worth what someone is willing to pay.

However, they could therefore just as easily be a little too low as too high. Ultimately, a player is only worth what someone else would be willing to pay. Based on that, I feel that my estimations are in the ballpark.

Would a club pay £60m for Fernando Torres, if he was on the market? I believe so, without doubt. They might even pay £70m, or up towards Ronaldo’s £80m. But £60m now seems a fair figure.

Barcelona were reportedly wanting to pay £25m for Javier Mascherano. So that’s easy enough.

For me, £12m would be a snip for Pepe Reina, but goalkeepers are classically undervalued, according to ‘Soccernomics’, so I valued him thus. Glen Johnson is still worth the £17m paid; whatever your views on his value, Chelsea and Manchester City were prepared to match Liverpool’s offer a few months ago. So he is worth £17m.
Conclusion

So there you have it. I fail to see how anyone can oppose the points I’ve raised, but of course, they will. Unfortunately, I have resorted to using facts, and meticulously explained arguments, to back up my ideas, rather than go on a ‘hunch’, or looking at a picture of Josemi and deducing “Rafa’s signings are therefore ”.

[fivecups]

Tomkins list that goes with the above article:

[lakes10]

the net spend this a loda of , i would not even care if we made a profit in net spend , all i care about is the fact that Rafa has had the money to build a good till over the years and has not.

[kazza]

28.07.2008 Robbie Keane - Tottenham - £19,300,000 - Sold for £16,000,00 could rise to £19m if he wins silverware there

Stopped reading there mate. We by all accounts at the time paid 20.5 million quid for him. The selling fee was undisclosed, but we're being asked to believe that Spurs, knowing full well we were desperate to move him on, on transfer deadline day, paid 16.3 million quid plus add ons to buy him back?

Sorry mate, I don't buy it. I know they're not your numbers, but Redknapp isn't a mug and that would have been a mug thing to do.

Of course you don't buy it because it does not fit into your angle. If anyone was desperate it was Spurs to buy him as they were looking dodgy at the time. Go and check before you comment. Redknapp is no mug but you readily assume Rafa is 

[bigmick]

28.07.2008 Robbie Keane - Tottenham - £19,300,000 - Sold for £16,000,00 could rise to £19m if he wins silverware there

Stopped reading there mate. We by all accounts at the time paid 20.5 million quid for him. The selling fee was undisclosed, but we're being asked to believe that Spurs, knowing full well we were desperate to move him on, on transfer deadline day, paid 16.3 million quid plus add ons to buy him back?

Sorry mate, I don't buy it. I know they're not your numbers, but Redknapp isn't a mug and that would have been a mug thing to do.

Of course you don't buy it because it does not fit into your angle. If anyone was desperate it was Spurs to buy him as they were looking dodgy at the time. Go and check before you comment. Redknapp is no mug but you readily assume Rafa is 

[NANNY RED]

Dont know were to stick this so ill shove it in here

Tonight Echo


Rafa Benitez in talks with bosses over Liverpool FC's Champions League situation
Nov 7 2009

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Rafael Benitez has held talks with his Liverpool bosses over the implications if the club fail to reach the last 16 of this season’s Champions League.

Discussions were also held on if the club fail to qualify for next season’s lucrative European competition.

The Liverpool manager revealed today that the club did not budget this term for anything beyond the group stages.

And Benitez insisted he was confident that financial problems next season will be avoided “because we will achieve a top four finish”.

Liverpool have never failed to reach the last 16 under Benitez’s management, but they are in grave danger of that eventuality now with qualification from Group E out of their hands after the midweek draw in Lyon.

They must hope that Lyon win their next match away to Fiorentina, and that Liverpool win their final two group games to produce the “miracle” Benitez admits they need now.

Reaching the Champions League next season is also under threat with them currently sixth in the Barclays Premier League, a point behind fourth-placed Manchester City, who are at Anfield on November 21.

Before that Liverpool face Birmingham at Anfield on Monday, needing to get their current form back on track.

Liverpool face earning £10million less from their European campaign this season if they do not reach the last 16, with another £10million lost if they do not qualify for next season’s group stages.

Benitez says: “I spoke to Christian Purslow (Liverpool’s managing director) the other day about the finances.

“The first thing, though, is that we have confidence we can still reach the last 16 of the Champions League this season.

“But whatever happens, the budget was done for this season based on us only qualifying for the group stages. And we did that, that is complete.

“Whether we can still bring in more money, we will wait and see. The commercial department is working very hard, for the next season (in Europe) it is a question of time.

“The Premier League is a long race, we must keep going. I am confident the team will finish in the top four and we are able to continue to do well in Europe, so let’s start against Birmingham with the right result.

“We have to do our job against Birmingham, and then I can guarantee that things will start to get easier.”

Improving their league position would be easier if Benitez could get Fernando Torres and Steven Gerrard fit following groin problems.

Gerrard seems unlikely to be available for the Birmingham game, while Torres has a much better chance.

Benitez is likely to risk Torres again, following the striker’s trip to visit a Spanish specialist on Thursday who is believed to have suggested a three-week break for the club’s top scorer.

Benitez also hopes that neither Spain or England will select Torres and Gerrard for international friendlies next weekend.

He wants the pair to have intensive treatment throughout the two week international break ahead of Manchester City’s visit to Anfield.

Benitez has held discussions with Spanish FA officials and believes he has a gentleman’s agreement that Torres will not be called up for Spain’s home friendly with Argentina next Saturday.

Benitez has not held similar conversations with England over Gerrard’s fitness.

England play Brazil in Doha next weekend, and Benitez would be furious if Gerrard was selected.

For Monday’s match, Liverpool have Fabio Aurelio, Albert Riera and Martin Skrtel back in training, although there are still doubts over Glen Johnson and Martin Kelly.

Benitez says: “The injury situation is improving, several players have been in light training. But there is a big difference, though, between being fit and being available.

“Gerrard has trained after being unable to do so for 15 days. He cannot be considered to be fit.

“Torres is a little better. He will train and work with the physios but whether he will be OK to play against Birmingham, we do not know yet.

“He could play and we must be careful with him. We will look at the situation after every training session.”

He added: “The experience I have had for many years with this sort of problem is to carry on and see how players react. Some can play all season with the problem, some need to stop and rest. They are all different.

“Torres is the one who can play. He has been in pain but he wants to play for the team, he has a great mentality. I believe we can carry on with him.

“Let us see how we do in the next game, then they will have 15 days of the international break to get fit, then let’s see how they are after that.”

[Penguins]

the net spend this a loda of , i would not even care if we made a profit in net spend , all i care about is the fact that Rafa has had the money to build a good till over the years and has not.

I know of noone who writes so much horse**** as you Lakes.

Statements likes this really expose you for what you are:

A mainstream fan with no clue whatsoever!

Net spend is damn important. You believe Rafa could have bought 5 Torres type of players without whealing and dealing.

Try to get something through your think skull for a change 

16.6 million/ season is not enough to build a new championship winning team. That is a fact!

[bigmick]

One stat which has caught my eye a couple of times of the last couple of weeks is that as our "payroll" is the sixth highest in the Premiership, we are infact punching equal to our wieght as we are sixth. A couple of points and questions come off of that.

Firstly, I can't help thinking that such numbers are indicative of a desperation in some quarters to make things look better than they are. We've done transfer spending (we've spent more than Arsenal and Man Utd since Rafa has been manager), we tried to say it was all "add ons" (it wasn't) and now we're onto wages. I don't think I've ever heard wages used as a justification for a league position either high or low, but lets look at it anyway.

The first question to ask is how do people actually know what a club is paying out in wages? Presumeably they take their info from the financial balance sheet released at the end of the year (or at least someone else does and then they quote it). The problem with that of course is that the information is out of date as it's historic rather than current. Manchester United for example will have been paying a fair old wack to Ronaldo and Tevez, and they aren't any more. That reduction (and of course Antonio Valencia and Michael Owens wages) won't appear on the balance sheet until the end of this financial year, effectively a season behind. You could also make the point about Arsenal letting both Koulo Toure and Emanuel Adebayor go. Both players will have been amongst their highest earners, and clearly Vermaelen won't be getting paid as much as the two put together.

And what of us? Well we know from the widespread reports that Glen Johnson came in on a fantastic contract, and at 18-20 million quid Aquilani won't have come for peanuts either. Then of course there has been the much publicised improved contracts for Gerrard, Torres, Kuyt etc and none of these will feature until the next financial statement.

So how much are the clubs actually paying in wages today? Well the reality is of course that nobody knows. Nobody will know until next year and the financial reports come out. Whether or not the figures are noteworthy enough to be even debated is questionable, but as we don't even know what they are I think they can be safely discounted. It's quite possible that we will suddenly have jumped up from 6th highest spender on wages up to 2nd highest, I simply don't think it's relevent. Before you know where you are if you go down this route, you're saying that as Rafa is only the fifth highest paid manager in the league (I don't know if he is, I just made that up) then by rights we should only finish fifth. It makes no sense really.

A better barometer of whether or not we are over or underachieving this season is to do it the more traditional way. We were second last season, four points behind the eventual Champions. The team which won it sold the World player of the year, and one of the best strikers in the World. They bought a bloke from Wigan who without being rude isn't the World player of the year, and Michael Owen on a free. We sold two players with a combined transfer value of 35 million quid, and bought two players with a combined transfer value of 37 million quid (I'm talking out of our first team here). Now, either we just completely fluked our second position last season, or we are actually a good team. My guess is it's the latter, so therefore my conclusion is that at the moment, we are underachieving a tad. Simple really when you think about it.

[Penguins]

Sure, we might be underachieving, but we had much more luck with injuries last season than this season. It is clearly well documented that we have the luxury of a good squad depth like our rivals. With the exeption of Babel none of the players that normally comes of the bench have cost more than 5 million.

Normally what you pay for is what you get and I believe firmly in that. When you get freebie they won't perform like 15 million players and 15 million players won't perform like freebies.
And there hasn't been the money for Rafa to both have a very strong strating 11 and a strong squad in case of injuries.

[bigmick]

Sure, we might be underachieving, but we had much more luck with injuries last season than this season. It is clearly well documented that we have the luxury of a good squad depth like our rivals. With the exeption of Babel none of the players that normally comes of the bench have cost more than 5 million.

Normally what you pay for is what you get and I believe firmly in that. When you get freebie they won't perform like 15 million players and 15 million players won't perform like freebies.
And there hasn't been the money for Rafa to both have a very strong strating 11 and a strong squad in case of injuries.

On the injuries there's no argument. We have been unlucky over the last few weeks (we did lose quite a few before they kicked in mind) and there's no denying it.

Your point about the bench and players coming off it is innaccurate. If everybody was fit, Dossena wouldn't get a game and he cost more than 5 million. Skyrtel wouldn't get a game and ditto, Lucas wouldn't, Riera arguably wouldn't (although he would in my team), Babel wouldn't and no doubt there's someone else who I can't think of.

Had the other clubs all spent more than us (and they haven't) then I would be much more inclined to take your point about us not having the money to build a squad more seriously.

I wish when people debated this stuff they would understand that it isn't my intention to slaughter the manager when I say what I do. I'm not moaning because we've spent good money, as I've said many times I broadly think Rafa has bought pretty well, I just point out the fact that when people use "spend" as a significant reason for our poor showing this season, it's utter nonsense on many levels.

We are not doing well this season for a couple of reasons:

The main one is that we sold Alonso and didn't have a replacement for him who was fit and able to play. Lucas couldn't fill the role as we now know, and this has had a massive effect on how well we've gone.

Our pre season wasn't intense enough IMHO, and it took us a few games to properly get started.

The zonal system wasn't properly honed, and we looked dodgy from set pieces.

It has taken and is still taking us time to find our style. Are we going to expansive or reactive, what is our tempo?

We have been a bit unlucky.

We have had some injuries.

We have had the occasional odd selection.

We didn't sufficiently cover certain positions on the pitch in case of injury.



They are the reasons why we're struggling, right there.

[Penguins]

But even if we have spent just as much or more since Rafa arrived when it comes to Manure and Arsenal look att where those teams were when Rafa took over?

The had been fighting it out for the top prize for years having quality players in their squads and players that had been in many title challanges. In comparison, no matter how much you want to glorify them, our team sucked. Few players had title challenge experience and none of them(bar Gerrard and Carra) was ever going to figure in a title winning squad. The team had finished over 30 pts after the winners and the few quality players were on the wrong side of 30 or approaching it.

That meant a complet overhaul was neccesary as the last few years we wasted alot of money with nothing to show for the future.

Meanwhile Manure had a team filled with quality(even though i hate them) both for then and the future and spent large amounts on players we could ever dream of in Rooney and Ferdinand for example.

So your comparison that Rafa might have spent 83 million and Fergie only 75 since Rafa took over bears little relevance.


And about Alonso. We needed a replacement but the thing is we couldn't use all the money we got for Alonso and we needed top class. I believe that Aquilani was the best bet when it was bang for your buck.
And I do not at all believe it is a coincidence that we only had to pay 5 million up front for him didn't play a big part in it all.

My guess we didn't even have 17 million to spunk up right there and then even if I have no proof it seems quite obvious to me that was the case.

I do agree on all the other points mentioned why we are struggling though.

I really think this "attacking fullback style" isn't working well at all. I do think Johnson and Insua have been good overall but or centre backs just can't cope with that kind of style.
We have no real force at the back I feel right now, a leader.
I think Carra's star is fading and Agger and Skrtel just isn't good enough or injured too much to help matters.
Would be nice with a world class leader at the back....

[LFC2007]

On the point about wages, I'm pretty sure that over the past five years or so our wage bill has been on average about £7-10m less than Arsenal's, a further £5-10m less than the Manc's and about £30-50m less than Chelsea's.

I'm not doing a Tompkins or anything, but that's a notable difference that can only have put as at a disadvantage in the transfer market. I wouldn't expect the situation to be that much different now, even accounting for the presumed net increase arising out of the Johnson/Aquilani/Kyrgiakos acquisitions (+ contract extensions) and the departures of Alonso/Arbeloa/Hyypia/Keane.

[LFC2007]

Before you know where you are if you go down this route, you're saying that as Rafa is only the fifth highest paid manager in the league (I don't know if he is, I just made that up) then by rights we should only finish fifth. It makes no sense really.

I agree the argument Tompkins makes is defeatist because it doesn't correlate to the obvious fact that us and Arsenal have both challenged in spite of the difference in wages, but it is true to say that the ability to spend up to 70% more than your competitors on wages is very likely to give you a considerable advantage. The strength of that correlation is borne out in the fact that the two highest overall spenders have had the most success on the pitch over the past five years. 

I don't, however, think the manager's pay is a valid comparator given that all top level managers will be on similar levels of pay - give or take a million quid (compared with say a £50m difference in overall wages between us and Chelsea).