Liverpool FC Forum

by **Ace Ventura** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:43 pm

Sabre wrote:Ace...

I agree selling and trying a lot of players is not the ideal situation. I guess no matter who you ask mate, no fan would acknowledge that's a good thing.

However when you don't have all the spending power available, like I think Tomkins has shown, you'll always have to do a bit of gambling, sometimes you'll get a solid player like Arbeloa, sometimes you won't.

If we had the same money to compete, we would have bought an Alves directly, and not a succession of Krompamps, Arbeloas and Degens.

Sabre, i understand that part, with us not having as much money as united and Chelsea thats something that does mean at times Rafa has to gamble.

What i mean though is the massive changes to the squad every summer.
And they seem to not really have much logic to them.
We sold Crouch who scored plenty when he came in for the odd games here and there.
I wanted him to stay but maybe he wanted more games, personally if i was Rafa i would have just said to him i dont want to sell you, you are an important part of the squad and i will give you what games i can etc...

But we sold him and we signed Keane, not that bad really but still we seemed short of options upfront.
Keane then doesnt really do it for one reason or another (thats an issue for a different thread) and we sell him halfway through a season where we are in with a shout of the league for the first time in years.
And we dont replace him.

I think ave gone off tangent here, thats obviously a different complaint of mine to the one you questioned.

On the area you quoted, there is always too many changes to the squad and most of them are pointless as the players we are bringing in are either of a similar level or maybe not even as good as that.
Added to that they then sometimes take time to settle in and adapt to the league and our style of play.
Just makes no sense to me at all.

by **tubby** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:59 pm

5live moaning Rafa has spent loads of money..... :angry:

Ferrrrk of will you can't we have 1 night of no slagging off.

by **Owzat** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:08 pm

Value of players used in the Premiership

1992/93 £19.400m (25 players)
1993/94 £22.435m (27 players)
1994/95 £25.225m (21 players)
1995/96 £36.100m (19 players)
1996/97 £34.275m (22 players)
1997/98 £34.875m (24 players)
1998/99 £36.695m (25 players)
1999/00 £51.420m (23 players)
2000/01 £66.720m (26 players)
2001/02 £68.150m (26 players)
2002/03 £81.450m (23 players)
2003/04 £91.700m (26 players)
2004/05 £98.950m (29 players)
2005/06 £96.200m (24 players)
2006/07 £111.850m (29 players)
2007/08 £138.250m (25 players)
2008/09 £147.300m* (23 players)

*includes Keane who has already been sold

Isn't it rather ironic we talk of spending when our top scorer in the Premiership in 12 of the previous 16 seasons has been a homegrown player. Carragher is one of, if not the, best defender and also cost nothing. The three players with most appearances in the Premiership are Gerrard, Carragher and Hyypia and they cost us a meagre £2.6m between them.

One interesting stat is that we've profitted from an own goal 28 times in the Premiership - that's a goal every 23.5 games, more frequent than our CBs or FBs score.

by **red187** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:03 pm

Ok so I thought the best way to illustrate my point would be to show the squad Rafa inherited and his current one, the arguement is that Rafa has wasted the money given to him, I sorry but looking at the squad lists, man for man it is a better squad than the one that was left when Rafa took over. Net and gross spend figures don't reflect the main issue, we are in a better position than five years ago.

GOALKEEPERS

JERZY DUDEK PEPE REINA
CHRIS KIRKLAND DIEGO CAVALIERI
PATRICE LUZI CHARLES ITANDJE

DEFENDERS

SAMI HYYPIA SAMI HYYPIA
STEPHANE HENCHOZ ANDREA DOSSENA
JAMIE CARRAGHER JAMIE CARRAGHER
STEVE FINNAN FABIO AURELIO
JOHN ARNE RIISE ALVARO ARBELOA
DJIMI TRAORE EMILIANO INSUA
ALOU DIARRA DANIEL AGGER
JOHN WELSH PHILLIP DEGEN
JON OTSEMBOR MARTIN SKRTEL
ZAK WHITBREAD

MIDFIELDERS

STEVEN GERRARD STEVEN GERRARD
HARRY KEWELL ALBERT RIERA
DIETMAR HAMANN XABI ALONSO
DANNY MURPHY YOSSI BENAYOUN
VLADIMIR SMICER JERMAINE PENNANT
SALIF DIAO RYAN BABEL
IGOR BISCAN JAVIER MACHERANO
RICHIE PARTRIDGE LUCAS LEIVA
BRUNO CHEYROU JAY SPEARING
DARREN POTTER DAMIEN PLESSIS
MICHAEL FOLEY-SHERIDAN NABIL EL ZHAR
DANIEL SJOLUND

ATTACKERS

MICHAEL OWEN FERNANDO TORRES
EL HADJI DIOUF ANDRIY VORONIN
MILAN BAROS DIRK KUYT
ANTHONY LE TALLEC DAVID NGOG
FLORENT SINAMA PONGOLLE KRISTIAN NEMETH

Pick the best eleven from both squads and I think anyone here would be hard pressed to make a case for the 2004/05 team beating the 2008/09 team on a regular basis.
Lets suppose for a second we could take five years of the 2004/05 squad apart from the players still in the squad how many would make it into our first team. As I see it depending on formation maybe Owen Riise and Smicer on a good day.

by **jono** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:58 am

The Spaniard would no doubt rather the Manchester United manager spent his free time bringing his maths up to scratch.

Ferguson yesterday insisted he was "amazed" by Benitez's claim after Liverpool's 4-1 win at Old Trafford last week that the difference between the two clubs was "about £100 million" spent in transfer fees over the last five years.

"I worked out in the last five years Liverpool have spent £24 million more than Manchester United," Ferguson said. "I talked to some people in the sports technology department and told them to check it out. He is well ahead of us in spending in the last five years.

"In that time, we've signed 18 players, eight of them young ones. We like to develop our players but other clubs are maybe different. Rafa has a different philosophy from me about producing players, but that is the great thing about football. Everyone has a different way of doing things."

Benitez may wish to ask Ferguson to show his working. The figures suggest that it is, as the Spaniard posited, United who have spent substantially more since he swapped the Mestalla for Merseyside.

In terms of gross spend, the difference is not vast. Ferguson's purchases have set United back some £185 million, while Benitez has parted with just a little shy of £180 million. It is in the net spend, though, that shows the true extent of United's vastly superior financial power.

Benitez has financed much of his spending through player sales, systematically upgrading and replacing his squad as he was able. His wheeling and dealing have raised some £108 million for Liverpool, giving a net spend in his time at the club of £72.22 million.

Ferguson, unencumbered by the need for capital to bolster his resources, has managed to raise a mere £70 million from sales, resulting in a net spend of £112.2 million.

It may not be the £100 million Benitez sardonically suggested in the aftermath of his triumph at Old Trafford, but his point was sound. It is unreasonable to expect Liverpool to catch up on the field as they lag so far behind off it.

With Benitez's new contract now signed and his tenure at Anfield secure until 2014, though, Ferguson expects the Spaniard to get to work without delay on closing the spending gap between the two clubs.

Ferguson said: "You will see Rafa produce an incredible spree. That is an absolute certainty now he has signed a new contract. They talk of a recession but there will not be one at Liverpool.

"There is no doubt they will have a big spending purge. That is Rafa's way. But we will address their challenge, just as we did with Chelsea. It doesn't matter where the challenge comes from, whether it be Liverpool, Chelsea or Arsenal. You try to be No 1."

Even Ferguson at his most obtuse would not suggest for a moment he has been suddenly cast in the role of Premier League pauper. While he is adamant summer transfer policy has not yet been discussed at the European champions, he has received loyal backing in the transfer market in his 23 years at Old Trafford.

He said: "We never discuss targets at this time. But it has always been the same here, even under (former chairman) Martin Edwards. If I wanted a player, the club would try to find the money. That will still be the case. The Glazer family have always delivered."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport....ed.html

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:11 am

red187 wrote:Ok so I thought the best way to illustrate my point would be to show the squad Rafa inherited and his current one, the arguement is that Rafa has wasted the money given to him, I sorry but looking at the squad lists, man for man it is a better squad than the one that was left when Rafa took over. Net and gross spend figures don't reflect the main issue, we are in a better position than five years ago.

GOALKEEPERS

JERZY DUDEK PEPE REINA
CHRIS KIRKLAND DIEGO CAVALIERI
PATRICE LUZI CHARLES ITANDJE

DEFENDERS

SAMI HYYPIA SAMI HYYPIA
STEPHANE HENCHOZ ANDREA DOSSENA
JAMIE CARRAGHER JAMIE CARRAGHER
STEVE FINNAN FABIO AURELIO
JOHN ARNE RIISE ALVARO ARBELOA
DJIMI TRAORE EMILIANO INSUA
ALOU DIARRA DANIEL AGGER
JOHN WELSH PHILLIP DEGEN
JON OTSEMBOR MARTIN SKRTEL
ZAK WHITBREAD

MIDFIELDERS

STEVEN GERRARD STEVEN GERRARD
HARRY KEWELL ALBERT RIERA
DIETMAR HAMANN XABI ALONSO
DANNY MURPHY YOSSI BENAYOUN
VLADIMIR SMICER JERMAINE PENNANT
SALIF DIAO RYAN BABEL
IGOR BISCAN JAVIER MACHERANO
RICHIE PARTRIDGE LUCAS LEIVA
BRUNO CHEYROU JAY SPEARING
DARREN POTTER DAMIEN PLESSIS
MICHAEL FOLEY-SHERIDAN NABIL EL ZHAR
DANIEL SJOLUND

ATTACKERS

MICHAEL OWEN FERNANDO TORRES
EL HADJI DIOUF ANDRIY VORONIN
MILAN BAROS DIRK KUYT
ANTHONY LE TALLEC DAVID NGOG
FLORENT SINAMA PONGOLLE KRISTIAN NEMETH

Pick the best eleven from both squads and I think anyone here would be hard pressed to make a case for the 2004/05 team beating the 2008/09 team on a regular basis.
Lets suppose for a second we could take five years of the 2004/05 squad apart from the players still in the squad how many would make it into our first team. As I see it depending on formation maybe Owen Riise and Smicer on a good day.

Reina
Finnan
Aurelio
Carra
Hyypia
Kewell
Gerrard
Masch
Smicer..... I would probably pick Kuyt myself
Owen
Torres

By my reckoning that's 7 that were here when Rafa came? I would also be torn between Masch and Hamann.

So thats 7 possibly 8 !

Stick 7 subs on :-

Dudek
Riise
Agger
Alonso
Hamann
Baros
Cisse or Pongole

by **aCe'** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:02 am

s@int wrote:
red187 wrote:Ok so I thought the best way to illustrate my point would be to show the squad Rafa inherited and his current one, the arguement is that Rafa has wasted the money given to him, I sorry but looking at the squad lists, man for man it is a better squad than the one that was left when Rafa took over. Net and gross spend figures don't reflect the main issue, we are in a better position than five years ago.

GOALKEEPERS

JERZY DUDEK PEPE REINA
CHRIS KIRKLAND DIEGO CAVALIERI
PATRICE LUZI CHARLES ITANDJE

DEFENDERS

SAMI HYYPIA SAMI HYYPIA
STEPHANE HENCHOZ ANDREA DOSSENA
JAMIE CARRAGHER JAMIE CARRAGHER
STEVE FINNAN FABIO AURELIO
JOHN ARNE RIISE ALVARO ARBELOA
DJIMI TRAORE EMILIANO INSUA
ALOU DIARRA DANIEL AGGER
JOHN WELSH PHILLIP DEGEN
JON OTSEMBOR MARTIN SKRTEL
ZAK WHITBREAD

MIDFIELDERS

STEVEN GERRARD STEVEN GERRARD
HARRY KEWELL ALBERT RIERA
DIETMAR HAMANN XABI ALONSO
DANNY MURPHY YOSSI BENAYOUN
VLADIMIR SMICER JERMAINE PENNANT
SALIF DIAO RYAN BABEL
IGOR BISCAN JAVIER MACHERANO
RICHIE PARTRIDGE LUCAS LEIVA
BRUNO CHEYROU JAY SPEARING
DARREN POTTER DAMIEN PLESSIS
MICHAEL FOLEY-SHERIDAN NABIL EL ZHAR
DANIEL SJOLUND

ATTACKERS

MICHAEL OWEN FERNANDO TORRES
EL HADJI DIOUF ANDRIY VORONIN
MILAN BAROS DIRK KUYT
ANTHONY LE TALLEC DAVID NGOG
FLORENT SINAMA PONGOLLE KRISTIAN NEMETH

Pick the best eleven from both squads and I think anyone here would be hard pressed to make a case for the 2004/05 team beating the 2008/09 team on a regular basis.
Lets suppose for a second we could take five years of the 2004/05 squad apart from the players still in the squad how many would make it into our first team. As I see it depending on formation maybe Owen Riise and Smicer on a good day.

Reina
Finnan
Aurelio
Carra
Hyypia
Kewell
Gerrard
Masch
Smicer..... I would probably pick Kuyt myself
Owen
Torres

By my reckoning that's 7 that were here when Rafa came? I would also be torn between Masch and Hamann.

So thats 7 possibly 8 !

Stick 7 subs on :-

Dudek
Riise
Agger
Alonso
Hamann
Baros
Cisse or Pongole

yep.... got to agree with that

by **fivecups** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:24 pm

Source: BBC (similar to Jonos with slightly different figures as usual)

Ferguson predicts Benitez spree
Sir Alex Ferguson
Ferguson took issue with Benitez over his transfer spending claims

Sir Alex Ferguson expects Rafa Benitez to spend big in the transfer market after signing a new deal at Liverpool.

Manchester United boss Ferguson said of his rival: "I think you will see Rafa producing an absolute spending spree, now he has signed a new contract.

"There's talk about a recession but I don't think there will be one at Liverpool this year."

After protracted negotiations, Benitez agreed a new deal earlier this week which ties him to Liverpool until 2014.

Ferguson also disputed the Spaniard's recent claim that United have massively outspent Liverpool on transfers in recent years.

He said United's own figures showed Liverpool had spent £24m more in overall terms.

"He's well ahead of us in spending in the last five years," Ferguson claimed.

In terms of net spending - taking into account income from sales - the clubs are much the same.

Liverpool's net spending over five years on players is £82.5m and United's has been £85.5m. Meanwhile, Chelsea spent £154.8m net on players during that time and Arsenal just £3.4m.

Ferguson claimed his philosophy included developing young players as well as signing stars, while Benitez was more focused on bringing in established players.

He added: "We have signed 18 players in the last five years and eight of those have been young players.

"There's a balance, it's about doing the thing correctly. We like to try to develop young players and we will always do that. That's the nature of the club.

"Other clubs are maybe different and obviously Rafa has a different philosophy from mine.

"But that's the great thing about football - everyone has a different way of doing things."

by **tubby** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:34 pm

Rafa has to hasnt he? He has come so close this year (and it is still not over) but he knows he cannot afford to slip behind again.

by **tubby** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:45 am

Has this been posted elsewhere? Anyway quite a good read.

TOMKINS: FERGUSON IS WRONG
Paul Tomkins 22 March 2009

Thankfully, most media outlets seem to have seen the massive inaccuracy in Alex Ferguson's figures relating to Liverpool's spending.

That he should even choose to come out with such figures in the first place is interesting, given his rather undignified reaction to Rafa's 'fact' press conference a couple of months back.

I'm also still smiling over his 'we were the better side' comments following their total humiliation last week, which every neutral I've spoken to found hilarious. That United played so well was obviously the reason Old Trafford was so empty in the last 10 minutes. He's also had a pop by excluding Rafa's name from the best managers in the league, which seems a bit childish for a pensioner.

You can't argue with Ferguson's success as a manager, but you can with some of the things he says.

This season may be a learning curve for Liverpool, with the league United's to lose even before their two main rivals were drawn against each other in the Champions League (which yet means the teams aspiring to catch United play each other in titanic, exhausting battles, as seen with Chelsea and Arsenal facing Liverpool last season while United get the easy draw.)

But the United manager is clearly worried, particularly as stability has been put in place at Anfield regarding the manager's future.

That the United manager should already be talking about Liverpool's future spending is fascinating. Why do so, unless he's worried?

Ferguson talks about the young players United have signed, and bizarrely says that Rafa, a man who started out in youth development, does things differently.

Perhaps Torres, Reina, Alonso, Mascherano, Agger, Lucas, Babel and Skrtel weren't all young players – aged 20-23 – when Rafa signed them after all, and all the teenage talent brought to the club, including Insua, Nemeth, Pacheco, Plessis and Ngog, is just a mirage?

How many players in their 30s has Rafa brought to the club? I can't think of one before or after Pellegrino, at 33, in 2005. Nor one as old as Henrik Larsson or Edwin van der Sar.

Robbie Keane was the oldest major signing Benítez has made, and perhaps the fact that he turns 29 this summer was why he was shipped out so quickly; at that age, if it doesn't look like it's working, you can't bide your time, particularly if a good offer comes in before the age-related depreciation takes place.

But the major flaw in Ferguson's argument is the fact that he already had half of his squad in place in 2004 when Rafa arrived.

He hasn't needed to rebuild an entire squad from scratch, merely add the £15m-£30m adornments. Rafa has clearly had to deal in quantity to cover all positions, but Ferguson has had the luxury of looking solely at quality.

So the two situations are poles apart. Ferguson had already spent big on players like Rio Ferdinand before Rafa pitched up.

He already had the players who emerged because of his youth system, which took almost seven years to bear fruit beyond one player (Giggs emerged in year five). Benítez would only be at that stage in 2011.

Indeed, if you add together every single player Rafa has bought (and there have been around 60, many of whom were mere kids), it still does not reach the total cost of United's current squad.

Even if you also add the cost of those players Rafa inherited who are still at the club (and there are just three), it still does not reach the total cost of United's current squad.

Including players out on loan (but not the full Tevez fee due this summer), United's squad costs over £215m, compared with Liverpool's £134m.

Let me remind you of what I said a few weeks back:

“Unless Ferguson is banned from fielding players like Ferdinand and Ronaldo (which would be illogical), or forced to start from scratch in 2004 (again illogical), it is not a fair comparison, is it? – I mean, come on, use your brain for a second here.”

Benítez is trying to overturn an established superpower, one that still has a dozen-or-so players who predate his arrival in England. Rafa has just three who were good enough and young enough to endure (not that Hyypia was young, but like Giggs he is evergreen).

As well as buy players, Rafa has had to change the culture of the club to fit in with his ideas, as all managers do; Ferguson did that 20 years ago. It's why it took him so long to win the title, as you cannot change things overnight.

Unless Benítez was going to try and compete for honours with the likes of Diao, Cheyrou, and Diouf, or players like Smicer, Dudek, Hamann and Henchoz, who are now all in their mid-30s (and therefore had a very short shelf-life), or injury-prone stars like Harry Kewell, Liverpool needed a fairly complete overhaul.

Particularly as Owen and Heskey had left, and Djibril Cissé was about to arrive, all of which had been pretty much decided before Rafa took the job. (Also, including Cissé as a Benítez signing only further skews the figures.)

So the inaccuracies are clear for all to see. But let's switch things a little.

How did Ferguson overtake Liverpool? The situation was very similar to that now, even if it was a long time ago now.

Remember, both Ferguson and Benítez arrived aged 44, and inherited squads that had averaged 4th over the previous four seasons, and finished 4th the season before they arrived. All the fours, then!

Each had a massive burden of expectation, brought about by a desperately long wait for the title. Alex Ferguson's average league position in his first five seasons at United was 8.6 (11th, 2nd, 11th, 13th, and 6th). Benítez's, if Liverpool finish only 3rd this season, will be 3.6.

But Ferguson faced in Liverpool in the '80s an established team with a top-class manager. He couldn't get close to Dalglish during their time in the respective dugouts.

Ferguson spent more money between 1986 and February 1991 (£12.8m gross, £9.87m net) than Dalglish managed in his six seasons (£12.5m gross, but only £5.77m net), but got nowhere near to toppling the Reds in that time.

So United's net spend was virtually twice that of Liverpool, and yet Ferguson still didn't trouble Dalglish. The money Ferguson spent wisely in the late '80s on players like Ince, Pallister, Hughes and Bruce took four years to have any effect on the league title. This is only Torres and Mascherano's second season.

So why did Ferguson spend so much more than Dalglish?

Well, Dalglish (like Ferguson in 2004) had a lot of his squad already in place.

Grobbelaar, Hansen, McMahon, Whelan and Nicol all spanned the entire period when Dalglish and Ferguson managed the two English superpowers.

(Liverpool raised £3.2m from selling Ian Rush in 1987, but the Reds also spend almost as much to bring him back a year later.)

Those men formed the heart of Dalglish's Liverpool.

They were five players who didn't need to be signed between 1986 and 1991; the kind of quality that could cost a king's ransom if they hadn't already been snapped up before at the top of their powers.

Ian Rush, the sixth name, also had a Liverpool connection which meant that although he needed to be re-signed, it was a relatively easy deal because of his time at Anfield.

Of course, Rush's initial departure led to the greatest influx of talent seen under Dalglish: the wonderful quartet of Aldridge, Beardsley, Barnes and Houghton. So Dalglish was partly 'blessed' in that Rush, whom he inherited, at least raised enough money to rebuild the attack upon his transfer.

Ferguson has enjoyed similar bonuses more recently: selling his best players for big fees as they approached their 30s (such as Stam, Beckham and Van Nistelrooy). Such sales now help keep Ferguson's net spend down, but in his first five years he couldn't get such impressive sums for Ron Atkinson's flops. So his net spend was very high for the times.

Again, make the comparison with Benítez and the likes of Diao and Cheyrou, who raised nothing.

Benítez never had such a luxury. Owen's value wasn't great due to his contract situation, leaving £10m less coming in. The only seriously saleable asset was Steven Gerrard.

The biggest profits Rafa has made have been on players he himself bought: Crouch, Bellamy, Sissoko. Of course, he hasn't been in the job long enough to sell his real gems, in the way Ferguson and Wenger (with Henry and Vieira) have picked the perfect time to cash in on world-class players aged 29/30/31.

If Rafa wanted to sell Torres he could make a massive profit, but thankfully the striker still has five years before he even reaches 30. So it's not relevant. Ideally, Torres would score loads of goals, win Liverpool titles, and return to his beloved Atletico no earlier than 2014 for a big fee.

Therefore you cannot ignore the way Ferguson overcame Liverpool – not by spending more, but by spending twice the amount.

So there you have it. It took the resignation of Dalglish to open the way for Ferguson, who had spent twice as much money but only averaged 9th place between 1986 and 1991. No wonder United fans wanted him out in 1990. But it just goes to show how difficult it is to overtake a side that already has the momentum, but that the best managers get there in the end.

If Ferguson is thinking back to how he did so, then no wonder he's feeling worried.

by **fivecups** » Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:48 pm

Supplied by Benitez Rocks from Bleacherreport.com

There appears to be a trend growing amongst media outlets, “expert” pundits, and rival supporters who ensure a negative air surrounds Liverpool Football Club and more commonly its manager, Rafa Benitez.

It seems he can do no right in the eyes of some people—his own supporters included—and more false claims appear every week that serve only to derail him from his aims.

As more and more newspapers churn out sensational headline after headline and television pundits spout opinion as fact; the more people are brainwashed by these stories.

Many lazy debaters claim their opinion to be fact or truth whilst they simply recycle misleading newspaper propaganda as their own knowledge or belief.

Biased supporters who choose to jump on the slander bandwagon when it involves a rival team are common place, and this only adds to the ever-growing ideology of a story perceived as fact.

Ideology: “a system that derives ideas exclusively from sensation or a set of ideas proposed by the dominant group of a society to all members of this society.”

“Organizations that strive for power will try to influence the ideology of a society to become closer to what they want it to be. Organizations and other groups (e.g. Media Outlets) try to influence people by broadcasting their opinions.”

One such myth which seems to have appeared recently has been the same tired line about Rafa Benitez and his transfers since his time at Liverpool.

You will hear people claiming things like:

“A larger proportion of Rafa's signings have been expensive and poor.”

This does of course depend on how a person interprets the words expensive and poor—the latter obviously being down to their personal opinion of a player.

For example if someone wants to use the barometer of anything over a million pounds to be expensive and any player other than Messi or Ronaldo is considered poor; then anyone will struggle to argue against that logic—me included.

We can address the “expensive” part of the argument first:

£20-30+ million: 1 (1)

Torres

£10-20 million: 4 (3)

Mascherano, Keane, Babel, Alonso

£5-10 million: 14 (9)

Dossenna, Riera, Agger, Skrtel, Reina, Benayoun, Leiva, Kuyt, Pennant, Crouch, Bellamy, Sissoko, Morientes, Garcia

£0-5 million: 47 (36)

Degan, Cavelieri, Ngog, Plessis, Insua, Leto, Itandje, Voronin, Arbeloa, El Zhar, Aurelio, Palletta, Fowler, Kromkamp, Barragan, Nunez, Zenden, Gonzalez, Carson, Pellegrino, Josemi, Martin, Antwi, Hobbs, Miki Roque, Gulacsi, Anderson, Poloskei, Crowther, Hansen, Saric, Ayala, Weijl, Blanco, Flora, Mendy, Ajdarevic, Simon, Bouzanis, Nemeth, Pacheco, Palsson, Brouwer, Durán, Huth, Domínguez,

(Numbers in brackets are players still at the club)

It is easy to see that the majority of Rafa’s signings have been below the £10 million mark and nothing like the fabrication that he has bought mostly “expensive” signings.

Especially when you consider that 49 of his 66 signings are still at the club and the selling on fee cannot yet be determined.

Here are some more comments and claims made about Rafael Benitez:

“He has bought 53 players for £190 million and sold 56 for £108 million, clearly a loss of £82 million proves he doesn’t have a clue in the transfer market.”

This is a full rundown of Rafael Benitez’ signings since he joined Liverpool in June 2004:

Players bought in by Benitez: 66

Players still at the club: 49

First Team: 18

Alonso, Reina, Agger, Aurélio, Kuyt, Arbeloa, Mascherano, Lucas, Torres, Itandje, Benayoun, Babel, Skrtel, Degen, Dossena, Cavalieri, Ngog, Riera.

Reserve Team: 22

El Zhar, Insúa, Palsson, Brouwer, Durán, Huth, Domínguez, Pacheco, Nemeth, Plessis, Hansen, Saric, Ayala, Weijl, Blanco, Flora, Mendy, Ajdarevic, Simon, Bouzanis, Crowther, Poloskei

Out on Loan: 9

Andriy Voronin, Jermaine Pennant, Sebastian Leto, David Martin, Godwin Antwi, Jack Hobbs, Miki Roque, Peter Gulacsi, Paul Anderson

A figure of 49 players bought by Rafa are still playing for the club with the majority (22) bought as youth players for the reserve team—with the idea for future revenue if they perform to their potential. It will also save the club a great deal of money if they turn out to be superstars worth a large transfer fee.

From that 49 figure, there are 18 still playing for the first team and contributing on a very large scale with the majority of them being priced by many as a greater figure than when the players were initially bought by Rafa.

From the nine players out on loan, only two are established players with the other seven being young reserve players gaining experience at other clubs—with the hope of either returning to Liverpool’s first team or making a profit to invest in future transfers.

Players Sold On by Benitez: 56

Players Bought by Other Managers and Sold on by Benitez: 39

Players Bought and Sold on by Rafa Benitez: 17

For me, this is the key point from which poorly informed debaters’ opinions collapse. Most propaganda articles or rival supporters will wildly claim that Rafa has sold "56" players and made little money in return.

They claim the “majority” of the "56" players the Liverpool manager has sold on have been at a loss and “proves” his failings in the transfer market. This is such a misleading statement to make that I really don’t know how people can still get away with it.

For starters, Benitez has sold 39 players bought by other Liverpool managers.

Benitez cannot be held accountable for selling a player at a loss when Benitez was not the one who identified the player as a target in the first place or sanctioned the over-inflated transfer fee.

You can only really judge him on the players he has bought and sold since he has been at the club and this brings the true figure down to just 17 players.

Profit: 7

Carson +2.25, Barragan +0.43, Sissoko +2.6, Crouch +4.0, Gonzalez +2.0, Bellamy +1.5, Nunez +0.5

Loss: 6

Garcia -2.0, Morientes -3.3, Palletta -0.8, Josemi (swapped for) Kromkamp -0.25, Idrizaj -0.19, Keane -3.0 (could be even less depending on contract triggers)

Even: 4

Pellegrino, Zenden, Fowler, Padelli (all four players were brought in and moved on for a free transfer)

So the true extent of Rafa’s failings in the transfer market is just six players from 17, coming with a loss of just under £10 million within four and a half years—the most expensive loss being just £3.3 million; nothing like the losses achieved by other established Premier League managers.

Hopefully that is one media myth thats been eradicated.

by **stmichael** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:10 pm

bavlondon wrote:Has this been posted elsewhere? Anyway quite a good read.

TOMKINS: FERGUSON IS WRONG
Paul Tomkins 22 March 2009

Thankfully, most media outlets seem to have seen the massive inaccuracy in Alex Ferguson's figures relating to Liverpool's spending.

That he should even choose to come out with such figures in the first place is interesting, given his rather undignified reaction to Rafa's 'fact' press conference a couple of months back.

I'm also still smiling over his 'we were the better side' comments following their total humiliation last week, which every neutral I've spoken to found hilarious. That United played so well was obviously the reason Old Trafford was so empty in the last 10 minutes. He's also had a pop by excluding Rafa's name from the best managers in the league, which seems a bit childish for a pensioner.

You can't argue with Ferguson's success as a manager, but you can with some of the things he says.

This season may be a learning curve for Liverpool, with the league United's to lose even before their two main rivals were drawn against each other in the Champions League (which yet means the teams aspiring to catch United play each other in titanic, exhausting battles, as seen with Chelsea and Arsenal facing Liverpool last season while United get the easy draw.)

But the United manager is clearly worried, particularly as stability has been put in place at Anfield regarding the manager's future.

That the United manager should already be talking about Liverpool's future spending is fascinating. Why do so, unless he's worried?

Ferguson talks about the young players United have signed, and bizarrely says that Rafa, a man who started out in youth development, does things differently.

Perhaps Torres, Reina, Alonso, Mascherano, Agger, Lucas, Babel and Skrtel weren't all young players – aged 20-23 – when Rafa signed them after all, and all the teenage talent brought to the club, including Insua, Nemeth, Pacheco, Plessis and Ngog, is just a mirage?

How many players in their 30s has Rafa brought to the club? I can't think of one before or after Pellegrino, at 33, in 2005. Nor one as old as Henrik Larsson or Edwin van der Sar.

Robbie Keane was the oldest major signing Benítez has made, and perhaps the fact that he turns 29 this summer was why he was shipped out so quickly; at that age, if it doesn't look like it's working, you can't bide your time, particularly if a good offer comes in before the age-related depreciation takes place.

But the major flaw in Ferguson's argument is the fact that he already had half of his squad in place in 2004 when Rafa arrived.

He hasn't needed to rebuild an entire squad from scratch, merely add the £15m-£30m adornments. Rafa has clearly had to deal in quantity to cover all positions, but Ferguson has had the luxury of looking solely at quality.

So the two situations are poles apart. Ferguson had already spent big on players like Rio Ferdinand before Rafa pitched up.

He already had the players who emerged because of his youth system, which took almost seven years to bear fruit beyond one player (Giggs emerged in year five). Benítez would only be at that stage in 2011.

Indeed, if you add together every single player Rafa has bought (and there have been around 60, many of whom were mere kids), it still does not reach the total cost of United's current squad.

Even if you also add the cost of those players Rafa inherited who are still at the club (and there are just three), it still does not reach the total cost of United's current squad.

Including players out on loan (but not the full Tevez fee due this summer), United's squad costs over £215m, compared with Liverpool's £134m.

Let me remind you of what I said a few weeks back:

“Unless Ferguson is banned from fielding players like Ferdinand and Ronaldo (which would be illogical), or forced to start from scratch in 2004 (again illogical), it is not a fair comparison, is it? – I mean, come on, use your brain for a second here.”

Benítez is trying to overturn an established superpower, one that still has a dozen-or-so players who predate his arrival in England. Rafa has just three who were good enough and young enough to endure (not that Hyypia was young, but like Giggs he is evergreen).

As well as buy players, Rafa has had to change the culture of the club to fit in with his ideas, as all managers do; Ferguson did that 20 years ago. It's why it took him so long to win the title, as you cannot change things overnight.

Unless Benítez was going to try and compete for honours with the likes of Diao, Cheyrou, and Diouf, or players like Smicer, Dudek, Hamann and Henchoz, who are now all in their mid-30s (and therefore had a very short shelf-life), or injury-prone stars like Harry Kewell, Liverpool needed a fairly complete overhaul.

Particularly as Owen and Heskey had left, and Djibril Cissé was about to arrive, all of which had been pretty much decided before Rafa took the job. (Also, including Cissé as a Benítez signing only further skews the figures.)

So the inaccuracies are clear for all to see. But let's switch things a little.

How did Ferguson overtake Liverpool? The situation was very similar to that now, even if it was a long time ago now.

Remember, both Ferguson and Benítez arrived aged 44, and inherited squads that had averaged 4th over the previous four seasons, and finished 4th the season before they arrived. All the fours, then!

Each had a massive burden of expectation, brought about by a desperately long wait for the title. Alex Ferguson's average league position in his first five seasons at United was 8.6 (11th, 2nd, 11th, 13th, and 6th). Benítez's, if Liverpool finish only 3rd this season, will be 3.6.

But Ferguson faced in Liverpool in the '80s an established team with a top-class manager. He couldn't get close to Dalglish during their time in the respective dugouts.

Ferguson spent more money between 1986 and February 1991 (£12.8m gross, £9.87m net) than Dalglish managed in his six seasons (£12.5m gross, but only £5.77m net), but got nowhere near to toppling the Reds in that time.

So United's net spend was virtually twice that of Liverpool, and yet Ferguson still didn't trouble Dalglish. The money Ferguson spent wisely in the late '80s on players like Ince, Pallister, Hughes and Bruce took four years to have any effect on the league title. This is only Torres and Mascherano's second season.

So why did Ferguson spend so much more than Dalglish?

Well, Dalglish (like Ferguson in 2004) had a lot of his squad already in place.

Grobbelaar, Hansen, McMahon, Whelan and Nicol all spanned the entire period when Dalglish and Ferguson managed the two English superpowers.

(Liverpool raised £3.2m from selling Ian Rush in 1987, but the Reds also spend almost as much to bring him back a year later.)

Those men formed the heart of Dalglish's Liverpool.

They were five players who didn't need to be signed between 1986 and 1991; the kind of quality that could cost a king's ransom if they hadn't already been snapped up before at the top of their powers.

Ian Rush, the sixth name, also had a Liverpool connection which meant that although he needed to be re-signed, it was a relatively easy deal because of his time at Anfield.

Of course, Rush's initial departure led to the greatest influx of talent seen under Dalglish: the wonderful quartet of Aldridge, Beardsley, Barnes and Houghton. So Dalglish was partly 'blessed' in that Rush, whom he inherited, at least raised enough money to rebuild the attack upon his transfer.

Ferguson has enjoyed similar bonuses more recently: selling his best players for big fees as they approached their 30s (such as Stam, Beckham and Van Nistelrooy). Such sales now help keep Ferguson's net spend down, but in his first five years he couldn't get such impressive sums for Ron Atkinson's flops. So his net spend was very high for the times.

Again, make the comparison with Benítez and the likes of Diao and Cheyrou, who raised nothing.

Benítez never had such a luxury. Owen's value wasn't great due to his contract situation, leaving £10m less coming in. The only seriously saleable asset was Steven Gerrard.

The biggest profits Rafa has made have been on players he himself bought: Crouch, Bellamy, Sissoko. Of course, he hasn't been in the job long enough to sell his real gems, in the way Ferguson and Wenger (with Henry and Vieira) have picked the perfect time to cash in on world-class players aged 29/30/31.

If Rafa wanted to sell Torres he could make a massive profit, but thankfully the striker still has five years before he even reaches 30. So it's not relevant. Ideally, Torres would score loads of goals, win Liverpool titles, and return to his beloved Atletico no earlier than 2014 for a big fee.

Therefore you cannot ignore the way Ferguson overcame Liverpool – not by spending more, but by spending twice the amount.

So there you have it. It took the resignation of Dalglish to open the way for Ferguson, who had spent twice as much money but only averaged 9th place between 1986 and 1991. No wonder United fans wanted him out in 1990. But it just goes to show how difficult it is to overtake a side that already has the momentum, but that the best managers get there in the end.

If Ferguson is thinking back to how he did so, then no wonder he's feeling worried.

People go on about Rafa rotating. If anyone's been rotating this season it's been Ferguson.

I think Rafa has been much more judicious in his use of rotation this season. Like every manager who wants to win the big trophies, he has rotated his squad. However, I think he's picked his moments more sensibly this year. Certainly, he seemed to be less aggressive in his rotation at the start of the season than in previous campaigns and that was rewarded with points. Maybe the subsequent dip in results was partially attributable to fitness, but I can't accept that tactics didn't play the greatest role in all those draws. Certainly, we do look fresher than anyone else though (bar Arsenal actually, who I'm glad are so far behind as to be out of it).

by **fivecups** » Sat May 23, 2009 12:46 pm

Post from LFCfan4life RAWK:

all figures are from www.lfchistory.net

It angers me when Rafa Benitez is attacked as being poor in the transfer market. As we all know there are plenty of reasons why players move one they were bought with 'potential' they never realised, they were homesick, they were 'stop gaps' and so traded up for a better player, they wanted regular playing time or they just ended up not being good enough.

Rafa has transfered a total of 51 professional players to liverpool football club in the past 5 seasons spending a total of £189,866,000

In that period he has sold a total of 57 professional players for £108,075,000

Thats a NET spend of £81,791,000 on all transfers

Yet he is always criticised for his own transfer dealings and how he signed flops costing us lots of money so i thought i would do the sums and come to a conclusion.

Of those 51 professional players bought

14 were young players signed for the reserve team in the hope that they would develop to either make us money or hopefully become part of our first team squad

Insua signed for £1,300,000 and El Zhar signed for £200,000 made that step up in to our first team squad this season.

9 players remain in our reserves or on loan getting experience and have cost a total of £1,040,000

15.08.2005 Godwin Antwi - Real Zaragoza - Unknown likely to be small compensation fee
15.08.2005 Miki Roque - Lleida - Unknown likely to be small compensation fee
22.08.2005 Besian Idrizaj - LASK Linz - £190,000
01.01.2006 Paul Anderson - Hull City - Free swapped with John Welsh
12.01.2006 David Martin - MK Dons - £250,000 rising to £1m depending on appearances
24.01.2007 Jordy Brouwer - Ajax - Unknown likely to be small compensation fee
30.01.2007 Francisco Durán - Malaga - £330,000
31.01.2007 Ronald Huth - Tacuary FC - Unknown likely to be small compensation fee
28.06.2007 Mikel San José Domínguez - Athletic Bilbao - £270,000

and 3 have since moved on and transfered to other clubs

21.01.2005 Scott Carson - Leeds United - £1,000,000, loaned to Villa for £1m and then sold for £3.25m rising to a potential £4m
04.07.2005 Antonio Barragan - Sevilla - £240,000 Sold for £675,000
18.08.2005 Jack Hobbs - Lincoln City - £150,000 Sold for an unknown fee most certainly more than we paid.

these 3 players cost £1,390,000 and sold for at least £4,075,000 thats a profit of £2,685,000 not including the £1m loan fee, £750,000 add ons or any fee over £150,000 for Hobbs.

22 are in the first team squad, or were before being out on loan, and they will be in contract at the end of the season

20.08.2004 Xabi Alonso - Real Sociedad - £10,700,000
04.07.2005 Jose Reina - Villareal - £6,000,000
12.01.2006 Agger - Brøndby - £5,800,000
05.07.2006 Fábio Aurélio - Valencia - Free
18.08.2006 Dirk Kuyt - Feyenoord - £9,000,000
21.08.2006 Nabil El Zhar - St Etienne - £200,000 - Moved up from reserves
31.01.2007 Álvaro Arbeloa - Deportivo - £2,500,000
11.05.2007 Lucas Leiva - Gremio - £5,000,000
04.07.2007 Fernando Torres - Atletico Madrid - £20,200,000
06.07.2007 Andriy Voronin - Leverkusen - Free
12.07.2007 Yossi Benayoun - West Ham - £5,000,000
01.07.2007 Sebastian Leto - Club Atlético Lanús - £1,800,000
13.07.2007 Ryan Babel - Ajax - £11,500,000
09.08.2007 Charles Itandje - Lens - Nominal Fee
26.08.2007 Emiliano Insúa - Boca Juniors - £1,300,000 - Moved up from reserves
11.01.2008 Martin Skrtel - Zenit St Petersburg - £6,500,000
29.02.2008 Javier Mascherano - Media Sports Investment - £17,000,000
03.07.2008 Philipp Degen - Dortmund - Free
04.07.2008 Andrea Dossena - Udinese - £7,000,000
11.07.2008 Diego Cavalieri - Palmeiras - £3,500,000
24.07.2008 David Ngog - Paris St Germain - £1,500,000
31.08.2008 Albert Riera - Espanyol - £8,000,000

Thats a first team squad assembled for £122,500,000 with only one player purchase inherited from previous management Sami Hyypia(£2.5m) who is moving on this summer.

15 players were bought for the first team and have since moved on

26.07.2004 Josemi Rey - Malaga - £2,000,000 - Exchanged for Kromkamp who sold for £1.7m
17.08.2004 Antonio Nunez - Real Madrid - £1,500,000 - Unknown fee believed to be what we paid £1.5m.
20.08.2004 Luis Garcia - Barcelona - £6,000,000 - Sold for £4,000,000
05.01.2005 Mauricio Pellegrino - Valencia - Free
13.01.2005 Fernando Morientes - Real Madrid - £6,300,000 - Sold for £3,000,000
04.07.2005 Boudewijn Zenden - Free left for Free
14.07.2005 Mohamed Sissoko - Valencia - £5,600,000 - Sold for £8,200,000
20.07.2005 Peter Crouch - Southampton - £7,000,000 - Sold for initial £8,750,000 rising to £11,000,000
20.10.2005 Mark Gonzalez - Albacete - £1,500,000 - Sold for £3,500,000
04.01.2006 Jan Kromkamp - Villareal - Exchange for Josemi - Sold for £1,700,000
27.01.2006 Robbie Fowler - Man City - Free left for Free
01.07.2006 Craig Bellamy - Blackburn - £6,000,000 - Sold for £7,500,000
04.07.2006 Gabriel Paletta - Club Atlético Banfield - £2,000,000 - Sold for £1,200,000 and we own 50% of his economic rights
26.07.2006 Jermaine Pennant - Birmingham - 6,700,000 - Left for Free
28.07.2008 Robbie Keane - Tottenham - £19,300,000 - Sold for £16,000,00 could rise to £19m if he wins silverware there

These players were purchased for £63,900,000 and sold for £56,850,000 not including the add-ons of £5,250,000 which could be received for Crouch and Keane. Thats a loss of £7,050,000 or just £1,800,000 if the add-ons are received. The most lost on one single transfer is £6,700,000 for Pennant and after that £3.3m each on Keane and Morientes.

Worst case scenario without receiving any add ons or including loan fees we have lost a total of £4,365,000 on players bought in and then sold since Rafa Benitez arrived in 2004/05. At best a £2,635,000 PROFIT!!! YES PROFIT on all his own transfers while compiling a squad of this quality by spending just £122,500,000 and a net spend of only £81,791,000 in the past 5 years. He didn't even profit as much as he should of when Owen, former european footballer of the year and only 24, moved on for £8.5m instead of the £20m he should have gone for if his contract was longer, in comparison the mancs got £25m for Beckham.

How can any one call our manager poor in the transfer market?

If you compare these numbers above with just these two brilliant :P transfers dealings in the past few years 1) Veron - signed for £30m and sold for £15m and 2) Shevchenko - signed for £30m sold for next to nothing.

we have fought against squads like the mancs who include Rio(£30m), Rooney(£30m), Bebartov(£30m), Tevez(£10m loan fee), Carrick(£18m), Ronaldo(£12m) theres £130m right there and then theres park(£4m), nani(£14m), anderson(£15-18m), the twins(£5-10m), hargreaves(£18m) etc

Chelsea have Cech(£7m), Bosingwa(£16m), Carvalho(£20m), Mikel(£16m), Essien(£24m), Dropba(£24m), Anelka(£15m), Malouda(£13m) thats £135m and they have plenty more in their first team squad like Deco(£8m), Ivanovic(£9m), Kalou(£8m), Ferreira(£13m)

feel free to point out any mistakes and i will rectify them - this should be a reference thread to educate any ill informed 'friends'.

by **bigmick** » Sat May 23, 2009 1:07 pm

fivecups wrote:28.07.2008 Robbie Keane - Tottenham - £19,300,000 - Sold for £16,000,00 could rise to £19m if he wins silverware there

Stopped reading there mate. We by all accounts at the time paid 20.5 million quid for him. The selling fee was undisclosed, but we're being asked to believe that Spurs, knowing full well we were desperate to move him on, on transfer deadline day, paid 16.3 million quid plus add ons to buy him back?

Sorry mate, I don't buy it. I know they're not your numbers, but Redknapp isn't a mug and that would have been a mug thing to do.

Also, as S@int has very eloquently pointed out many times, net spend is less important than total spend. the object when you are Liverpool manager is not to buy and sell players at a profit, or indeed to necessarily lessen the losses, it is to buy good players. Simple as that.

By and large having said all of that, I think Rafa has bought reasonably well. There were far too many "options and possibilities" players as we sought to build a squad of umpteen different permutations, able to counter each and every nuance we would come up against, but other than that it's not been too bad.

All that is with the obvious exception of last Summer, where the managers transfer dealings were nothing short of farcical. Taking that out of the equation, I don't think he's done too bad.

Another thing which is hard to quantify with signings is longevity and value. people talk about Mourinho for instance spending big money at Chelsea, which obviously he did. Signings such as Drogba though for 24 million quid, or Essien for mid 20's were fantastic buys. Carvallio at 20 million was a top buy, and these players if under a decent contract and if sold tomorrow would significantly reduce any "net spend" figure. That's where I personally can't give too much credence to the numbers. By selling Keane for instance (who proved to be a truly awful buy, utterly disasterous) we have made ourselves look much better in the transfer market. Were he still languishing on the bench, we'd be a significant amount further in the red. Chelsea on the other hand because they actually signed some good players who are still there, appear to have spent more (which they actually have).

No, the fiugures don't tell the whole tale for me.

by **fivecups** » Sat May 23, 2009 11:39 pm

bigmick wrote:
fivecups wrote:28.07.2008 Robbie Keane - Tottenham - £19,300,000 - Sold for £16,000,00 could rise to £19m if he wins silverware there

Stopped reading there mate. We by all accounts at the time paid 20.5 million quid for him. The selling fee was undisclosed, but we're being asked to believe that Spurs, knowing full well we were desperate to move him on, on transfer deadline day, paid 16.3 million quid plus add ons to buy him back?

Sorry mate, I don't buy it. I know they're not your numbers, but Redknapp isn't a mug and that would have been a mug thing to do.

Also, as S@int has very eloquently pointed out many times, net spend is less important than total spend. the object when you are Liverpool manager is not to buy and sell players at a profit, or indeed to necessarily lessen the losses, it is to buy good players. Simple as that.

By and large having said all of that, I think Rafa has bought reasonably well. There were far too many "options and possibilities" players as we sought to build a squad of umpteen different permutations, able to counter each and every nuance we would come up against, but other than that it's not been too bad.

All that is with the obvious exception of last Summer, where the managers transfer dealings were nothing short of farcical. Taking that out of the equation, I don't think he's done too bad.

Another thing which is hard to quantify with signings is longevity and value. people talk about Mourinho for instance spending big money at Chelsea, which obviously he did. Signings such as Drogba though for 24 million quid, or Essien for mid 20's were fantastic buys. Carvallio at 20 million was a top buy, and these players if under a decent contract and if sold tomorrow would significantly reduce any "net spend" figure. That's where I personally can't give too much credence to the numbers. By selling Keane for instance (who proved to be a truly awful buy, utterly disasterous) we have made ourselves look much better in the transfer market. Were he still languishing on the bench, we'd be a significant amount further in the red. Chelsea on the other hand because they actually signed some good players who are still there, appear to have spent more (which they actually have).

No, the fiugures don't tell the whole tale for me.

Those figures came from lfchistory.net which is considered to be a reliable site. We signed Keane for £19 million which could have risen to £20.5 but obviously didn't from my memory. Im not sure how much we sold him for - I think £15 million was mentioned at the time. £16 rising to 19 million sounds very high - I think Rafa said we would loose around £3-4 million.

We've discussed net/ gross spend quite a bit before in this thread. Saint pointed out that net spend took no account of profit made from selling previous managers players. Equally though, gross spend fails to account for money made from selling players eg. Sissoko or Crouch which was subsequently used to buy new players. I think net spend plus profit from the sale of players already at the club was more reasonable. I agree though that these numbers don't factor in the value of the current squad which as you say is rather important.

Im sure there is a perfect model out there somewhere I just don't know what it is.

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