Liverpool FC Forum

[Flight]

Didi, Murphy, Pongolle and Crouch all wanted to leave and asked to, for first team football.

Murphy never asked to leave mate, he was devastated when he was told he was no longer wanted.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Danny was told he wouldn't be first choice and wouldn't get many games. Then Charlton came in with a £2.5mill bid and Murphy was told it was up to him. Carra talks about it in his book and says Danny has regretted the decision ever since.


If that's not the case I apologise

[bigmick]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Danny was told he wouldn't be first choice and wouldn't get many games. Then Charlton came in with a £2.5mill bid and Murphy was told it was up to him. Carra talks about it in his book and says Danny has regretted the decision ever since.


If that's not the case I apologise

Hey fella no need to apologise, whether or not Danny Murphy wanbted to leave or was told to leave doesn't have a huge influence on the debate.

FWIW I've enjoyed your input to the forum. I disagree with pretty much all of where you're coming from, but at least you've brought an argument to the table, and it's definately been enough to make me re-assess my opinion. It hasn't made me change it, but I've looked at it really closely.

It's a pleasant change for someone to come into the debate and not go for the easy get outs, and to actually argue their point from a pro-Rafa standpoint. 

Like I said, no need for any apologies whether you're right or wrong on Danny Murphy. The exchanges between you and S@int have been some of the best on the forum for ages IMHO.

[Flight]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Danny was told he wouldn't be first choice and wouldn't get many games. Then Charlton came in with a £2.5mill bid and Murphy was told it was up to him. Carra talks about it in his book and says Danny has regretted the decision ever since.


If that's not the case I apologise

Hey fella no need to apologise, whether or not Danny Murphy wanbted to leave or was told to leave doesn't have a huge influence on the debate.

FWIW I've enjoyed your input to the forum. I disagree with pretty much all of where you're coming from, but at least you've brought an argument to the table, and it's definately been enough to make me re-assess my opinion. It hasn't made me change it, but I've looked at it really closely.

It's a pleasant change for someone to come into the debate and not go for the easy get outs, and to actually argue their point from a pro-Rafa standpoint. 

Like I said, no need for any apologies whether you're right or wrong on Danny Murphy. The exchanges between you and S@int have been some of the best on the forum for ages IMHO.

I'm not exaggerating when I say that's the best post I've read all year. Not because of anything to do with me, but because its from someone who disagrees about Rafa but is being reasonable.

The biggest worry for me is the effect the tabloid journalism in the UK is having in splintering LFC supporters against each other.

[Flight]

I've also been thinking about the best measure of a managers transfer prowess. I'd always thought Net spend was best but Saint made the excellent point that a new manager gets money from the sale of his predecessors players - something I hadn't considered. So perhaps net spend plus this equity is fairest? Gross spend doesnt seem to make sense. I can't really see the value of Tomkins analysis either - he totals the amount spent on the current squad. That fails to take into account money spent on players no longer at the club - for instance the loss on Robbie Keane or the gains on players like Peter Crouch. If he wants to argue that Liverpool are overperfoming based on the value of our squad it would be more accurate to include players who've come through the academy - Gerrard and Carra being the obvious ones. The value of those players in subjective and even that doesn't give a value for the true value of our current squad - for that you would have to estimate the current value of each player - for instance - Dossena is probably not worth what we paid for him, Aurelio would have some value in the current market. To estimate current value for us and the other teams would of course be highly subjective.

I've listed what I think are players Rafa sold who were Houllliers. The total for them is £43,750,00 (done in my head). If we add that to the net spend of £81,791,000 his spend would be around £125 million. The problem with this parameter is that it 's difficult to compare to other teams.

I can edit these names if people think they are wrong.

What do people think about that as a measure?

1. Danny Murphy Charlton £2,500,000 10.08.2004
2. Michael Owen Real Madrid £8,500,000* 14.08.2004
3. El Hadji Diouf Bolton £3,500,000 15.06.2005
4. Alou Diarra Lens £2,000,000 23.06.2005
5. Milan Baros Aston Villa £6,500,000 23.08.2005
6. Zak Whitbread Millwall £200,000 13.06.2006
7. Djimi Traore Charlton £2,000,000 09.08.2006
8. Neil Mellor Preston £500,000 30.08.2006
9. Chris Kirkland Wigan Ath. £3,500,000* 27.10.2006
10. Darren Potter Wolves £250,000* 18.01.2007
11. Stephen Warnock Blackburn £1,500,000 22.01.2007
12. Florent S.-Pongolle Recreativo de Huelva£2,700,000 04.05.2007
13. Danny O' Donnell Crewe £100,000 13.06.2007
14. Djibril Cissé Marseille £6,000,000 09.07.2007
15. John Arne Riise AS Roma £4,000,000 01.07.2008
16. Anthony Le Tallec Le Mans Undisclosed 02.07.2008
Total: £43,750,000

That's an interesting post mate; I think if you were to do that then offset what the present squad would fetch, apart from Stevie, Carra and Sami who were already here I agree, that would give a decent assessment of whether Rafa has done a decent job in the transfer market.


Is our present squad worth £125mill, with the exceptions noted ?  Genuine question.



As an aside, I suspect we would get back at least what we paid for Dossena. Whether or not he will adapt to the English game time will tell, but he is still Italy's first choice left back and the Real goal can only help his stock.

Lucas also is not our favorite player, but he is Brazils youngest ever footballer of the year at 19 (won in the four years before him by Kaka, Tevez, Robihno and Alex, is still only 22 and turned down numerous top European clubs to join us including Inter.


I suggest, even the two most pilloried of his purchases would at least bring back in what we paid for them.

(I strongly believe they will both go on to become good players but that's just my opinion   -  Carra was bloody rubbish in his first few years for us, but good job we stuck with him).

[Flight]

One thing that isn't considered is which players the top four already had when Rafa arrived, to put into context what he took on.


EXISTING PLAYERS AT TOP FOUR CLUBS WHEN RAFA ARRIVED


ARSENAL

Almunia
Toure
Clichy
Eboue
Fabregas
Van Persie
Bendtner


CHELSEA

Cech
Carvalho
Terry
Ferreira
J Cole
Lampard
Drogba


MANCS

Ferdinand
O'Shea
Neville
Ronaldo
Giggs
Scholes
Fletcher
Rooney


LIVERPOOL

Carragher
Gerrard
Sami

Is a side of Dudek, Finnan, Warnock/Riise, Carragher, Hyypia, Diouf/Smicer, Kewell, Gerrard, Hamann, Owen and Cisse such a bad starting XI?

I agree with you mate, some great players there. I live just around the corner from Stevie and Sami (rumor is Nando has bought the house opposite Stevie) and sometimes bump into Sami jogging along the train track. Didi is a legend - simple as; I'm sure we all miss him massively.

Unfortunately, the march of time has cost us and Rafas hand was forced.


Dudek - surely no debate that Reina was a brilliant purchase ?

Warnock - local lad, top attitude very aggresive - positionally could just not learn what the training staff spent years trying to teach him, watch any game he played in for us and he is two yards off the line of the rest of the back four time and time again

Riise - one legged donkey whose early years made him look better than he was, due to the way we constantly hoofed it out of defense under Houllier

Sami - legend, but 36 this year

Carra - If I was gay ....

Finnan - time has caught up with him and his recent play at his new club has been extremely poor

Kewell - crocked, simple as

Didi - same age as Sami

Diouf - I wouldn't on him if he was on fire, good riddance and played poorly for us (Ged gave him and the Sheriff massive wages and a lengthy contract instead of keeping Anelka ... /sigh)

Vladi - top player who was blighted by constant injury - although he was always played wide out of position by Ged, when he had scoring records for his country playing in the hole

Cisse - not good enough, can't get a game ahead of Jones for Sunderland

Owen - he forced us to sell him


I'm not saying that side didn't have some great players, but time has robbed us of them.


I think you also have to remember that an awful lot of the dross we had Houllier had given unreasonably long contracts to on massive wages. A lot of them we couldn't even give away.

[Ace Ventura]

Its a good thread this, best for a while.


On my part i totally agree with saint about offloading too many players every season.
People can defend Rafa on this to an extent by saying they were players that were not good enough for Liverpool etc.
But if you sell them and then bring in players of the same level of quality or even worse quality in some instances then thats obviously a mistake.

Its easy to sit there and say Cisse doesnt have a footballing brain, he sulks around the pitch with a bad attitude and all that, but if you sell him and then bring in players that dont score enough goals thats when you have problems.

To be fair to Rafa on this he may be thinking (well he was obviously thinking) that the new players will come in and be a big hit.
But it seem to me like its gamble after gamble, i am convinced that players like Bellamy have been moved on to quick and lets be honest the striking options we have at the moment are probably the worst out of the top six.
Even Everton have Saha, Jo, Yakubu and Vaughan, if you take Torres out of our attack then its a serious worry.

So regardless of looking at actual figures at the end of the day Rafa has had lots of money to build and shape his own squad and lets be honest its not at all great in a couple of areas.

Whichever way you dres it up thats not good enough and is definately the managers fault.

[fivecups]

So should we then penalise a manger that gets full use out of a player, but gets little for him at the end of his career rather than a manager that sells a player at or near his peak? We are not a selling club, so imo the only true way to judge would be to set an arbitrary figure for the squad he took over and then reassessing it at a moment in time.

Rafa took over a despirited team, not a poor team. The squad had weaknesses but also some excellent players. Dudek ,Hyypia, Hamann, Finnan, Carra , Gerrard, Riise, Baros, Kewell, Pongolle, Owen, Kirkland ,Warnock.  I think without doubt they would ALL GET IN OUR SQUAD TODAY.

They had just come fourth in the league, with a manager that had lost a lot of their belief and a team that was totally despirited. So they can't have been that bad can they ? Or perhaps the Liverpool side that finished 4th last season was equally poor and despirited? 

No imo the only way to give a reasonable assessment of how much a manager has spent is to take the gross cost of his spending and accept that bad buys will be included even if he ships them out early. I accept fivecups example, but cannot think of a way to avoid it. I also believe the real cost of a bad buy is not only how much you lose when you sell him, but the time lost, the points lost and the opportunity to buy another player is lost as your money is tied up in the bad buy. 

As I said before people will make their own judgement calls no matter what figure is finally accepted anyway.

How much is Reina worth for example. £6million? £10million..... £20million. The only time you will really know is when and if he is ever sold. Always accepting that price is not only based on how good they are, but their age, the length of their contract , how many clubs are interested at that particular moment in time and whether the player wants a move or not in the first place.

No, I will stand by my gross spend as being imo the best measure, accepting it has flaws and that it will always be open to further interpretation.

I think that using net spend plus equity accounts for that. Rafa inherited Houlliers squad and he can use that equity in different ways. For instance Owen left immediately so Rafa got £8.5 million to spend but no contribution towards our play from him. Gerrard has obviously stayed and Rafa has reaped the benefits of that, however, he's got no money for him from transfers. Others have been used as a combination of both - Riise's equity, for instance, has been used both as a player and what then in transfer fees when he moved to Roma.

It's overly simplistic - I agree that buying and selling too many players will lose time in developing a team. Also there is a considerable cost in agents fees, signing on fees and lawyers fees. Also players wages need to be considered as they are a massive part of a clubs turnover.

[Flight]

Its a good thread this, best for a while.
Whichever way you dress it up thats not good enough and is definately the managers fault.

This is a cheap shot this and I apologise for it in advance, but :


Real Madrid   4-0

The critics says Real were poor


Mancs 1-4 LFC


?


It has always been my contention that Rafa has done, what many critics have said he should do, and invested in a small number of expensive purchases (Torres)


Where would we be if Torres and Gerrard had been fit all season ?

Top, in my mind, without a doubt.

[Owzat]

If the team Houllier left was as poor as you say how was it possible to win the Champions league with 9 players from it and reach the final of the League cup, even accepting that probably the second best player from that Houllier team was sold (Owen)without even making any contribution.

The same team that finished 30 points off the top of the Prem.


And that wasn't underperforming, that was about the right level for that same team, without Owen.

If you mean 04/05, we finished 27 points off the top and there were two contributing factors :-

1) Chelsea had a fantastic season :

- 95 points is a top flight record for 38 games
- 57 GD is only one off equalling the best GD for 38 games
- 29 wins is a 38 game record
- they lost only one game all season

2) Liverpool switched off around the Juventus QF, most certainly because the league was all but gone if not gone, and naturally focus would switch. Maybe we could have been a bit better and managed 4th, but the mancs finished 3rd with 77 points which is 19 more than we finished with

Before the Juve QF we had 50 points from 31 games, we managed just 8 more points from the last 7 games. We lost away to Palace, Citeh and Arsenal, drew at home to Boro and spudz

[Owzat]

I am compiling some stats about the Liverpool squads, transfer values etc. I haven't quite finished, I'd like to go back beyond Dalglish's reign to build up a picture of the values of players he and Souness in particular had available.

But so far it looks like this, more or less complete for players signed by each with little scope for major change :-

Benitez : 52 signings, £204.450m (Average £3.932m, 10.4 signings per season)
Houllier : 49 signings, £119.300m (Average £2.435m, 8.2 signings per season)
Evans : 22 signings, £40.900m (Average £1.859m, 5.5 signings per season)
Souness : 15 signings, £18.625m (Average £1.242m, 4.3 signings per season)
Dalglish : 20 signings, £11.160m (Average £588k, 3.6 signings per season)

"Signings" include youth team players who made first team appearances under each manager - or signed a contract if you like. It is noticable that the number of signings per season has increased as well as the money spent, the latter you would expect as fees are much different these days.

Record Fee

Benitez : £21m Torres
Houllier : £14m Cisse/£11m Heskey (depends how you view Cisse's signing)
Evans : £8.5m Collymore
Souness : £2.9m Saunders
Dalglish : £2.8m Rush

So a definite shift in record fees, Souness and Dalglish in the most comparable eras but then you can see how the cost of strikers has increased, albeit Torres is far and away the best striker of our modern era signings. Newcastle bought Alan Shearer for £15m, just 12 months after we signed Collymore for £8.5m

Signings Per Season (excluding Youth)

Benitez : 9.2
Houllier : 6.5
Evans : 4.0
Souness : 3.7
Dalglish : 3.3

Further emphasises the way football has changed, a lot more focus on squad with more subs allowed etc. Some will be down to trying to find the right players in the quest for the elusive Premiership. It's a significant difference if you also take into account the advent of transfer windows, you can buy players only a few months a year nowadays.

[nobybob]

what is the cost of our first team squad compared to other first team squads, i.e what did we pay per player and what is the value of players already here, players sold is not relevant, what is relevant is if our first team squad is valued at higher than say the stoke squad. lets say torres was 20 million, lets say gerrard is worth 30 million, mash 17 million, kuyt 11 million, theres 78 million on 4 players, i would imagine thats more than the whole stoke squad.
 
net spend is not important, what is important is the value of the players on the pitch, the value of the current squad

 

This is a complete contradiction in terms, don't you realise that net spend has a huge impact on the current squad?  Most people would agree that on our day Liverpool are more than capable of beating anyone, but that in order to win the league reserve strength in all positions is required. This is were manwho and chelski have a huge advantage  with  £100M worth of players sitting on the bench in the event of injury or maybe just for that period in the season were even the best players go through a lack of form. If Rafa is short of money then it all becomes a balancing act, in order to strengthen the squad he has to sell some of it (weakening it ) then buy better players for the same money. Do you think that the other clubs out there are going to buy our under performing players for overinflated money?? only if we are really lucky, but you can guarantee that when we show any interest in  a good player in good form the price goes crazy (g. Barry for example ) thus rafa is forced into compromises such as buying his 3rd,or maybe even 4Th choice players instead of his 1st choice. and maybe selling a player that he would really like to keep for the squad, of perhaps its just  a case of OK if i buy Torres i have to sacrifice having a couple of good backups in these positions etc(weakening the squad ). So he compromises and gets stick of some in here for buying this particular player who is just not good enough, or selling that player who we really should have kept. And these are the same people who then go on about the squad just not being as strong in depth as manwho etc and how we will never win the league under Rafa.  Chelski and the mancs dont have this problem if a particular part of the team or the squad needs improvement they just go out and buy simple as!!! no compromising the cheque book just comes out. So in my opinion NET SPEND has a huge impact and taking this into consideration Rafas achievements have been nothing short of miraculous and he deserves much more credit of some than he gets.

[Ace Ventura]

Its a good thread this, best for a while.
Whichever way you dress it up thats not good enough and is definately the managers fault.

This is a cheap shot this and I apologise for it in advance, but :


Real Madrid   4-0

The critics says Real were poor


Mancs 1-4 LFC


?


It has always been my contention that Rafa has done, what many critics have said he should do, and invested in a small number of expensive purchases (Torres)


Where would we be if Torres and Gerrard had been fit all season ?

Top, in my mind, without a doubt.

We may well have been top had we been able to play Gerrard and Torres together more often this season.

Big but here though......

if the rest of the team or squad are not good enough to step upto the plate in the run of the mill league games then the buck stops with the manager as he signed them and has created this squad.

We have been unlucky having our star striker injured so frequently and for the majority of the season, but at the end of the day Rafa sold Crouch, bought Keane and then sold him as well.
So the manager left us short in that area without a doubt.
We wont go into the Keane thing as people have differing opinions on why he was sold, the only point imo regarding the Keane transfer thats worth considering is, despite how poor he had looked for us could we have done with him in the second half of the season ?
I think yes.

Dont want to get on Rafas back really after the best week i have had in many a year, i will give him massive credit for that.
I am still p!ssed after celebrating that performance all night, but it still doesnt detract from some of the clear mistakes he has made regarding transfers and shaping the squad.

[Sabre]

Ace...

I agree selling and trying a lot of players is not the ideal situation. I guess no matter who you ask mate, no fan would acknowledge that's a good thing.

However when you don't have all the spending power available, like I think Tomkins has shown, you'll always have to do a bit of gambling, sometimes you'll get a solid player like Arbeloa, sometimes you won't.

If we had the same money to compete, we would have bought an Alves directly, and not a succession of Krompamps, Arbeloas and Degens.

[tubby]

Rafa has to sell a lot of players becasue most of his money comes from sales.

[lakes10]

A lot of it is not what we have spent but on the amout of players that have come to our club over the years Rafa has been here


If anyone would like to work on a stat.

How many players has Rafa taken to Liverpool and how many have the other top for done so in the same time??