Liverpool FC Forum

[Penguins]

It is all clear as day for everyone to see how far behind financially we are but some doesn't care and just demand no errors from rafa and the title, title, title.

It's is immature and boring at this stage really...

And some comments here... jeez.

It doesn't matter how much you spend to be succesful and Mourinho was a great manager.

That is pure garbage and nothing else.

Rafa has had a hell of a job on his hands since day 1 when  he came and has done a fantastic job with the resources, turmoil at the club and what not.
That is a fact!

That we won league titles 20-30 years ago means jack ****
now and the reality today is what some people has to look at.
We spend less that Tottenham and only the league title is good enough 
The club has been run from the top by incompetent people
for almost 20 years now with no stadium in sight and ownership with never enough money.
Fergie spends 30 million on veron, Mourinho spends 30 million in Shevshenko. So what?
Business as usual and next week they'll buy Rooney and Drogba.
If Rafa makes one mistake like that and it all goes to hell.
Just pathetic how unrealistic and far from reality some people's views are 

[Flight]

You have to admire Tomkins, he has finally come up with a way to TOTALLY ignore any bad buys that the manager makes (How Houllier would have loved him ) any players that have been sent out on loan (Pennant suddenly becomes a freebie) AND changes a £200million spend into £127million.

Maybe we should be asking how, if the manager has spent circa £200million WHY the squad is only WORTH £127million ?

Net Spend 92 - 09 Purchased  Sold     Nett       Per Season
1 Chelsea £538,690,000 £185,750,000 £352,940,000 £20,761,176 
2 Manchester United £398,150,000 £190,565,000 £207,585,000 £12,210,882 
3 Liverpool £380,115,000 £177,670,000 £202,445,000 £11,908,529 
4 Manchester City £274,380,000 £80,553,000 £193,827,000 £11,401,588 
5 Tottenham £347,200,000 £174,317,500 £172,882,500 £10,169,559 
6 Newcastle £304,195,000 £175,225,000 £128,970,000 £7,586,471 
7 Aston Villa £218,190,000 £92,225,000 £125,965,000 £7,409,706 
9 Sunderland £152,765,000 £52,480,000 £100,285,000 £5,899,118 
8 Middlesborough £179,285,000 £86,770,000 £92,515,000 £5,442,059 
10 Arsenal £259,940,000 £180,724,000 £79,216,000 £4,659,765 
11 Everton £194,745,000 £139,970,000 £54,775,000 £3,222,059 
12 Portsmouth £108,100,000 £91,195,000 £16,905,000 £994,412 
13 Blackburn Rovers £164,650,000 £151,335,000 £13,315,000 £783,235 
14 West Ham £148,582,000 £173,282,000 -£24,700,000 -£1,452,941 
     

Net Spend 04 - 09 Purchased    Sold            Nett         Per Season 
 
1 Manchester City £171,020,000 £49,900,000 £121,120,000 £24,224,000 
2 Chelsea £248,450,000 £117,300,000 £131,150,000 £26,230,000 
3 Liverpool £212,490,000 £102,030,000 £110,460,000 £22,092,000 
4 Manchester United £176,450,000 £76,050,000 £100,400,000 £20,080,000 
5 Tottenham £226,100,000 £137,250,000 £88,850,000 £17,770,000 
6 Aston Villa £95,150,000 £21,255,000 £73,895,000 £14,779,000 
9 Sunderland £80,580,000 £11,650,000 £68,930,000 £13,786,000 
7 Newcastle £120,750,000 £83,400,000 £37,350,000 £7,470,000 
8 Middlesborough £62,200,000 £32,500,000 £29,700,000 £5,940,000 
10 Everton £80,100,000 £56,900,000 £23,200,000 £4,640,000 
12 Arsenal £102,050,000 £81,720,000 £20,330,000 £4,066,000 
11 Portsmouth £85,200,000 £71,010,000 £14,190,000 £2,838,000 
13 West Ham £75,145,000 £61,625,000 £13,520,000 £2,704,000 
14 Blackburn Rovers £36,100,000 £36,290,000 -£190,000 -£38,000 
             
   Leeds United £5,900,000 £13,050,000 -£7,150,000 -£1,787,500 


The first table shows spends since 1992 to 2009, the second just during Rafa's time at Liverpool.

These figures quoted are from a site that is a right load of old . Its called www.transferleague.co.uk and is known to be very biased. Look at its front page - its designed to highlight Rafas 'spend'.

As a quick example, it lists Nando as costing us £26.5million and includes Cisse as a Rafa buy at £14million, when he was signed and sealed when Rafa got here and nothing to do with him. Thats £20mill discrepancies for a start.


One thing that isn't considered is which players the top four already had when Rafa arrived, to put into context what he took on.



EXISTING PLAYERS AT TOP FOUR CLUBS WHEN RAFA ARRIVED


ARSENAL

Almunia
Toure
Clichy
Eboue
Fabregas
Van Persie
Bendtner


CHELSEA

Cech
Carvalho
Terry
Ferreira
J Cole
Lampard
Drogba


MANCS

Ferdinand
O'Shea
Neville
Ronaldo
Giggs
Scholes
Fletcher
Rooney


LIVERPOOL

Carragher
Gerrard
Sami

[Reg]

I´ve just totted up the numbers and reckon it looks like:

Chelsea - £114m
Manchester Utd - £85m
Arsenal - £83m
Newcastle Utd - £52m
Liverpool - £4.83 plus a tube of smarties

Good to see Riise scored his penalty last night by the way, bet he had is heart in his mouth as he ran up........

[Penguins]

Please don't post such things that include common sense.

Since we have 50% the resources I expect no mistakes from Rafa and to get all his buys totally right. Even if he can't buy expensive players I demand the cheaper buys to become just as good as our rivals bigger buys. It is surely just down to mentality and not how good they are. With the right mentality
we will win no matter what...
I have waited 20 years for the damn title. It is Rafa's fault
we haven't won it...

That is stoneage mentality!

[Penguins]

It is so funny now that the truth is there for everyone
to see, that all the Rafa bashers don't want to mention it, talk about it or even argue it.
Beacuse that would mean Rafa has done great with his limited resources.

But then you can put your head in the sand and say things like:

"Money isn't that important" Fergie would win with Stoke just as easy.
Mourinho is just so great compared to Rafa.
He was given 400 million in 2-3 years and got 2 league titles and 1 FA cup. What an achivement.
Even if Rafa only get 30% as our rivals he must scout better, never do mistakes, buy only 1 player each year and fill out squad with ressies. Then it is all about mentality.
If Rafa can get those reserve players to play fast attacking fotball we will win the title. If the reserves players can't do it it is Rafa's fault. I remember 1978, when we dominated and I demand nothing less now. We are Liverpool and winning is everything.   If we don't win I will complain and dislike the manager for not bringing the title no matter that things have changed and circumstances are different. You only needed 11 player back then so you only need 11 players now.

Just pathetic to read that garbage.
We have no god given right to win. Souness that *****
destroyed our team, our dreams. And Rafa has brought back
some belief that we can dream. And we should support the team win or loose and realise what a head start that ***** Souness gave the mancs.

Here is some nice reading for those who believe money actually does matter:

From The Telegraph

Liverpool must close financial gap or risk lagging behind European elite

When Liverpool and Real Madrid collided on Tuesday night in the sort of atmosphere unique to Anfield on European occasions, they did so as sporting equals.

By Paul Kelso
Last Updated: 8:37AM GMT 11 Mar 2009

They may have only met once before in a competitive tie prior to this year's Champions League, the 1981 European Cup final, but as the most successful sides in the competition's history, with 14 titles between them, they dine at its highest table.

At Madrid they expect nothing less, and as the richest club in Europe they have resources to match their ambitions. At Liverpool expectations are just as high, but financial realities mean that they punch above their weight every time they pass the last 16 stage in Europe.

In financial terms Liverpool are quarter-finalists at best, ranked only seventh in the recent Deloitte's European money list with an annual revenue of £167 million dwarfed by Real's table-topping £290 million. Domestically, the club trail a distant fourth to their Premier League rivals.

The internal feuding between co-owners George Gillett and Tom Hicks, outgoing chief executive Rick Parry and manager Rafael Benítez has dominated attention for the last six months, but closing the financial gap is the club's priority.

The raw numbers are chastening. Liverpool's commercial earnings last season were £51.5 million, £10 million less than Chelsea's, £13 million short of Manchester United's and better than Arsenal's £44 million only because the Gunners took a large portion of their £90 million deal with Emirates up front.

The gap in match-day revenue is even more startling. United take more than £3 million-a-game courtesy of Old Trafford's 76,000 seats, 9,000 of which are part of corporate hospitality packages, and generated £101 million last season.

Arsenal, with 7,000 premium seats in the 60,000 Emirates selling in the nearby City of London market, generated £94.6 million. Even Chelsea, with a comparable capacity, brought in £74.5 million, a full £25 million more than the £39.2 million generated at Anfield last season.

There are many on Merseyside who will tell you that the relative scarcity of corporate seats at Anfield – just 2,800 of the 46,000 come with prawn sandwiches – is one of the prime reasons for the sort of crackling atmosphere generated last night. It is a source of pride that the club have, relatively speaking, resisted the commercialisation so prevalent elsewhere.

The fans may cherish Anfield's authenticity but for owners with acquisition loans to service and expansion plans to realise, closing the financial gap is a priority. To do that they will have to overhaul a commercial operation that has been left standing by their rivals, and more importantly build the 73,000 capacity stadium that Hicks and Gillett promised when they bought the club.

The commercial failings of the club is the principal reason for the removal of Parry as chief executive, a move engineered by Hicks, now clearly the dominant partner in the dysfunctional relationship with Gillett.

With Parry leaving in May, responsibility for financial growth is in the hands of Ian Ayre, the former Huddersfield chief executive appointed as the clubs first commercial director by Hicks in 2007.

Ayre acknowledges the club have fallen behind, but is confident that they can make ground quickly. "It's fair to say that we should be stronger commercially given that we are the most successful club in English football historically," he told The Daily Telegraph. "The challenge is different here though, because you have to preserve the very unique values and history of this club. For every supporter who says we should be squeezing more money from the brand you'll find one who wants the unique nature of it protected. We have to respect that view, because there are people at Anfield every week for whom the club means everything."

Squaring that circle will never be easy, but with owners schooled in the hyper-commercial American sports market change is inevitable. Ayre is already targeting Asia, mindful that no English club have made a sustained impact on the market, and has plans for a number of new products including a touring version of the Anfield museum close to fruition.

The club are also targeting a greatly increased shirt-sponsorship deal. Carlsberg pay just £7 million a year for their deal with the owners confident that they can more than double that.

A new stadium will do more than any sponsorship to elevate Liverpool into the European commercial elite, with the new Anfield predicted to raise at least £50 million more per season while maintaining corporate seats at about five per cent of capacity.

"We have real support for the stadium plans because the supporters know it will be good for everyone. We're like a family that has outgrown its home, and its time to move on to a place where we can give all our supporters a fantastic experience as well as providing a magnet for tourism and the city," Ayre said.

Realising that vision will be the biggest challenge of all. The stadium plans have been approved and planning permission received, but with the credit markets frozen and uncertainty over the ownership of the club persisting, there is no prospect of work starting any time soon.

Until the search for fresh investors to break the Hicks-Gillett deadlock is successful, Liverpool will continue to compete in the slipstream of richer continental rivals.

[B][U][B][I][U]

[Owzat]

One thing that isn't considered is which players the top four already had when Rafa arrived, to put into context what he took on.


EXISTING PLAYERS AT TOP FOUR CLUBS WHEN RAFA ARRIVED


ARSENAL

Almunia
Toure
Clichy
Eboue
Fabregas
Van Persie
Bendtner


CHELSEA

Cech
Carvalho
Terry
Ferreira
J Cole
Lampard
Drogba


MANCS

Ferdinand
O'Shea
Neville
Ronaldo
Giggs
Scholes
Fletcher
Rooney


LIVERPOOL

Carragher
Gerrard
Sami

I assume you mean are still at the same club that were when Rafa took over. That's Rafa's choice, personally I think he has got rid of a few he could have kept (Cisse, Pongolle and Warnock for starters). And a number weren't got rid of until last summer - Finnan, Kewell and Riise. It also ignores a few situations like the one with Owen, maybe that could have worked out better. Either way it gives Houllier a zero cost player in Owen, Rafa a -£8m "net" if you subscribe to that theorem!

Surely you judge property by what you own, you don't own a £200k house and say it is only a £50k house because you sold your £150k house to buy it! Even more so if you didn't buy the house you sold in the first place! That may be where the money came from, but if you sold that £200k house then you'd be looking at recouping around £200k for it so that is what it is worth. Same applies to players, how much Rafa got for Cisse, Owen, Riise, Finnan, etc has no bearing on what the current squad is worth.

We had a pretty large squad when Rafa arrived, in 1st team squad and saleable assets. Rafa loaned a lot of them out before eventually selling them off here and there.

Squad When Rafa Took Over

GKs (3) : Dudek, Kirkland, Bernadi

CBs (4) : Hyypia, Henchoz, Medjani, Whitbread

FBs (5) : Finnan, Warnock, Riise, Traore, Vignal

MF (11) : Gerrard, Hamann, Kewell, Smicer, Diao, Murphy, Potter, Le Tallec, Cheyrou, Diarra, Biscan

CFs (6) : Owen, Cisse, Pongolle, Mellor, Baros, Diouf

Quite a bumper squad to start with by any standard, I haven't included arguable cases like Welsh, Partridge and Otsemobor (not sure if Babbel was ever an option for Rafa if he was still here) And it was a good enough starting platform to win a European Cup with - with a few signings. Even Houllier wants some credit for Istanbul 2005.

Signed 04/05 : Alonso, Luis Garcia, Nunez, Josemi (Summer) and Pellegrino, Carson and Morientes (January)

Is a side of Dudek, Finnan, Warnock/Riise, Carragher, Hyypia, Diouf/Smicer, Kewell, Gerrard, Hamann, Owen and Cisse such a bad starting XI?

The unfortunate thing was a lot of the other players were terrible, I said elsewhere that we had a good side but Houllier bought badly latterly and we ended up with Biscan, Traore, Cheyrou, Le Tallec, Diao, Medjani and rubbish like that. If they'd all been snips it wouldn't be so bad, didn't Houllier get wrapped up in buying "the next Henry", "the next Vieira", "the next Zidane", "the next Desailly" ? Problem was the players he bought were French, but that's where the similarity ended.

[fivecups]

Thomkins got the figures wrong in that article; he has apologised for it.


Rafa has only spent £80million, net, over 5 years and has had to replace all but three members of the first team (including nearly 36 year old Sami) as well as rebuilding the youth and reserve teams.

Players bought

Players sold


Anyone who criticizes Rafas expenditure is not in touch with reality.

Flight - I haven't see this - have you a source?

[Flight]

Thomkins got the figures wrong in that article; he has apologised for it.


Rafa has only spent £80million, net, over 5 years and has had to replace all but three members of the first team (including nearly 36 year old Sami) as well as rebuilding the youth and reserve teams.

Players bought

Players sold


Anyone who criticizes Rafas expenditure is not in touch with reality.

Flight - I haven't see this - have you a source?

Click on the links mate. At the bottom of each is a total for players sold and players bought. take one figure away from the other. I checked out the figures on there and on the transfer website quoted earlier in the thread.

The only mistake I found on LFChistory is that they have a £5mill purchase price down for Lucas, when I believe he cost £6mill ?


Mistakes found on www.transferleague.co.uk  :

They are £6mill out on the cost of Torres;

they include Cisse in their assessment of Rafas purchases at £14million

Diarra we got £2mill for (they don't even list him)
Nunez we got £2mill for (they list no fee)
Paletta we got £1.2mill (they list no fee)
Owen we got £8.5 mill (they list £8mill)
Kirkland we got £3.5mill (they list £3mill)
Kromkampf we got £1.75mil (they list £1.5mill)
Gonzalez we bought for £1.5mill (they reckon we paid £4.5mill)

There are numerous other mistakes and they all add up.


In summary, the inaccuracies on that website inflate Rafas net spend by roughly 42%. They claim Rafa has spent much more than Mr Ferguson, when the reality is Rafa has spent just over £1mill a year more than Villa or £2mill a year more than Sunderland.


Of course, the tabloids lies propagate the untruth that Rafa is the biggest waster of transfer funds in the modern game.

[bigmick]

It is so funny now that the truth is there for everyone
to see, that all the Rafa bashers don't want to mention it, talk about it or even argue it.
Beacuse that would mean Rafa has done great with his limited resources.

But then you can put your head in the sand and say things like:

"Money isn't that important" Fergie would win with Stoke just as easy.

Rather than attempting to paraphrase what "Rafa bashers" are saying, just make your point. Nobody has said Ferguson would win the title with Stoke, don't be silly.

Once I'd read that, I didn't read the rest of your post or the long one which followed it. Once somebody starts being purposefully daft there is no point in talking to them.

This fella Flight is bringing a new perspective to the "net spend" debate. He is making by far the most compelling case for the defence of rafa in the transfer market I have heard in a long time. I would have thought people who agree with the thrust of what he's on about, and believe that the manager is doing the very best he possibly can under impossible circumstances, ought to sieze upon his findings and back them up. If you dilute his findings with bizarre nonsense though, it dilutes his point.

I've just quickly scouted down your posts and picked out a few more:

"Even if Rafa only get 30% as our rivals he must scout better, never do mistakes, buy only 1 player each year and fill out squad with ressies. Then it is all about mentality."

"You only needed 11 player back then so you only need 11 players now."

"It doesn't matter how much you spend to be succesful and Mourinho was a great manager".



Mind you, you did also say "just pathetic to read that garbage", so we do agree on something anyway.

[fivecups]

Thomkins got the figures wrong in that article; he has apologised for it.

Sorry mate, I meant this bit.

[fivecups]

This is the full list from LFChistory.net that Flight linked. I'd be interested to hear Owzat's/ Saint/ Bab Bob's or anyone elses opinion on the fees, overall spent and recouped to see if we can get a definitive list. I know some of the fees are undisclosed which makes exact totals difficult but it would be useful for us to have as complete as list as possible.

1. Josemi Rey Malaga £2,000,000 26.07.2004
2. Antonio Nunez Real Madrid £1,500,000* 17.08.2004
3. Luis Garcia Barcelona £6,000,000 20.08.2004
4. Xabi Alonso Real Sociedad £10,700,000 20.08.2004
5. Mauricio Pellegrino Valencia Free 05.01.2005
6. Fernando Morientes Real Madrid £6,300,000 13.01.2005
7. Scott Carson Leeds United £1,000,000 21.01.2005
8. Antonio Barragan Sevilla £240,000 04.07.2005
9. Boudewijn Zenden Free Transfer Free* 04.07.2005
10. Jose Reina Villareal £6,000,000 04.07.2005
11. Mohamed Sissoko Valencia £5,600,000 14.07.2005
12. Peter Crouch Southampton £7,000,000 20.07.2005
13. Godwin Antwi Real Zaragoza Unknown 15.08.2005
14. Miki Roque Lleida Unknown 15.08.2005
15. Jack Hobbs Lincoln City £150,000* 18.08.2005
16. Besian Idrizaj LASK Linz £190,000* 22.08.2005
17. Mark Gonzalez Albacete £1,500,000* 20.10.2005
18. Paul Anderson Hull City Player Exchange* 01.01.2006
19. Jan Kromkamp Villareal Player Exchange* 04.01.2006
20. Daniel Agger Brøndby £5,800,000 12.01.2006
21. David Martin MK Dons £250,000* 12.01.2006
22. Robbie Fowler Man City Free 27.01.2006
23. Craig Bellamy Blackburn £6,000,000 01.07.2006
24. Gabriel Paletta Club Atlético Banfield  £2,000,000 04.07.2006
25. Fábio Aurélio Valencia Free 05.07.2006
26. Jermaine Pennant Birmingham £6,700,000 26.07.2006
27. Dirk Kuyt Feyenoord £9,000,000 18.08.2006
28. Nabil El Zhar St Etienne £200,000 21.08.2006
29. Daniele Padelli Sampdoria On Loan* 12.01.2007
30. Jordy Brouwer Ajax Undisclosed* 24.01.2007
31. Francisco Durán Malaga £66,000* 30.01.2007
32. Ronald Huth Tacuary FC Undisclosed 31.01.2007
33. Álvaro Arbeloa Deportivo £2,500,000 31.01.2007
34. Javier Mascherano West Ham On Loan 20.02.2007
35. Lucas Leiva Gremio £5,000,000 11.05.2007
36. Mikel San José Domínguez Athletic Bilbao  £270,000 28.06.2007
37. Sebastian Leto Club Atlético Lanús £1,800,000 01.07.2007
38. Fernando Torres Atletico Madrid £20,200,000 04.07.2007
39. Andriy Voronin Leverkusen Free* 06.07.2007
40. Yossi Benayoun West Ham £5,000,000 12.07.2007
41. Ryan Babel Ajax £11,500,000 13.07.2007
42. Charles Itandje Lens Undisclosed 09.08.2007
43. Emiliano Insúa Boca Juniors £1,300,000* 26.08.2007
44. Martin Skrtel Zenit St Petersburg £6,500,000 11.01.2008
45. Javier Mascherano Media Sports Investment£17,000,00029.02.2008
46. Philipp Degen Dortmund Free* 03.07.2008
47. Andrea Dossena Udinese £7,000,000 04.07.2008
48. Diego Cavalieri Palmeiras £3,500,000 11.07.2008
49. David Ngog Paris St Germain £1,500,000 24.07.2008
50. Robbie Keane Tottenham £19,000,000 28.07.2008
51. Albert Riera Espanyol £8,000,000 31.08.2008
Rafael Benítez bought 51 players for £189,866,000

[fivecups]

1. Markus Babbel VfB Stuttgart Free 16.07.2004
2. Danny Murphy Charlton £2,500,000 10.08.2004
3. Michael Owen Real Madrid £8,500,000* 14.08.2004
4. Stephane Henchoz Celtic Free 28.01.2005
5. Vladimir Smicer Bordeaux Free 13.06.2005
6. El Hadji Diouf Bolton £3,500,000 15.06.2005
7. Mauricio Pellegrino Alaves Free* 17.06.2005
8. Alou Diarra Lens £2,000,000 23.06.2005
9. Mark Smyth Unknown Free* 01.07.2005
10. Paul Harrison Unknown Free* 01.07.2005
11. Richie Partridge Unknown Free* 01.07.2005
12. Patrice Luzi Unknown Free* 01.07.2005
13. Gregory Vignal Portsmouth Free* 01.07.2005
14. Igor Biscan Panathinaikos Free* 01.07.2005
15. Jon Otsemobor Rotherham United Free* 01.07.2005
16. Antonio Nunez Celta Vigo £2,000,000* 29.07.2005
17. Milan Baros Aston Villa £6,500,000 23.08.2005
18. John Welsh Hull City Player Exchange* 01.01.2006
19. Josemi Rey Villareal Player Exchange* 02.01.2006
20. Zak Whitbread Millwall £200,000 13.06.2006
21. Bruno Cheyrou Rennes Undisclosed 29.06.2006
22. Robbie Foy Unknown Free* 01.07.2006
23. David Raven Carlisle £0* 03.07.2006
24. Fernando Morientes Valencia £3,000,000 05.07.2006
25. Dietmar Hamann Bolton Free 11.07.2006
26. Antonio Barragan Deportivo £675,000 03.08.2006
27. Djimi Traore Charlton £2,000,000 09.08.2006
28. Carl Medjani Lorient Free 12.08.2006
29. Neil Mellor Preston £500,000 30.08.2006
30. Jan Kromkamp PSV Eindhoven £1,750,000 31.08.2006
31. Chris Kirkland Wigan Ath. £3,500,000* 27.10.2006
32. Darren Potter Wolves £250,000* 18.01.2007
33. Stephen Warnock Blackburn £1,500,000 22.01.2007
34. Salif Diao Stoke Free 25.01.2007
35. Florent S.-Pongolle Recreativo de Huelva£2,700,000 04.05.2007
36. Daniele Padelli Sampdoria Returns from loan 08.06.2007
37. Danny O' Donnell Crewe £100,000 13.06.2007
38. Jerzy Dudek Real Madrid Free* 01.07.2007
39. Boudewijn Zenden Marseille Free* 01.07.2007
40. Robbie Fowler Cardiff Free* 01.07.2007
41. Luis Garcia Atletico Madrid £4,000,000 03.07.2007
42. Djibril Cissé Marseille £6,000,000 09.07.2007
43. Craig Bellamy West Ham £7,500,000 10.07.2007
44. Mark Gonzalez Real Betis £3,500,000 17.07.2007
45. Gabriel Paletta Boca Juniors £1,200,000* 26.08.2007
46. James Smith Stockport Cou. Free 28.12.2007
47. Mohamed Sissoko Juventus £8,200,000 28.01.2008
48. Lee Peltier Yeovil Free* 31.01.2008
49. John Arne Riise AS Roma £4,000,000 01.07.2008
50. Harry Kewell Free Transfer Free 01.07.2008
51. Anthony Le Tallec Le Mans Undisclosed 02.07.2008
52. Peter Crouch Portsmouth £11,000,000* 11.07.2008
53. Danny Guthrie Newcastle £2,250,000 14.07.2008
54. Scott Carson WBA £3,250,000* 18.07.2008
55. Steve Finnan Espanyol Undisclosed* 31.08.2008
56. Robbie Keane Tottenham £16,000,000* 02.02.2009
Rafael Benítez sold 56 players for £108,075,000

Net from this source: £81,791,000

[fivecups]

I've also been thinking about the best measure of a managers transfer prowess. I'd always thought Net spend was best but Saint made the excellent point that a new manager gets money from the sale of his predecessors players - something I hadn't considered. So perhaps net spend plus this equity is fairest? Gross spend doesnt seem to make sense. I can't really see the value of Tomkins analysis either - he totals the amount spent on the current squad. That fails to take into account money spent on players no longer at the club - for instance the loss on Robbie Keane or the gains on players like Peter Crouch. If he wants to argue that Liverpool are overperfoming based on the value of our squad it would be more accurate to include players who've come through the academy - Gerrard and Carra being the obvious ones. The value of those players in subjective and even that doesn't give a value for the true value of our current squad - for that you would have to estimate the current value of each player - for instance - Dossena is probably not worth what we paid for him, Aurelio would have some value in the current market. To estimate current value for us and the other teams would of course be highly subjective.

I've listed what I think are players Rafa sold who were Houllliers. The total for them is £43,750,00 (done in my head). If we add that to the net spend of £81,791,000 his spend would be around £125 million. The problem with this parameter is that it 's difficult to compare to other teams.

I can edit these names if people think they are wrong.

What do people think about that as a measure?

1. Danny Murphy Charlton £2,500,000 10.08.2004
2. Michael Owen Real Madrid £8,500,000* 14.08.2004
3. El Hadji Diouf Bolton £3,500,000 15.06.2005
4. Alou Diarra Lens £2,000,000 23.06.2005
5. Milan Baros Aston Villa £6,500,000 23.08.2005
6. Zak Whitbread Millwall £200,000 13.06.2006
7. Djimi Traore Charlton £2,000,000 09.08.2006
8. Neil Mellor Preston £500,000 30.08.2006
9. Chris Kirkland Wigan Ath. £3,500,000* 27.10.2006
10. Darren Potter Wolves £250,000* 18.01.2007
11. Stephen Warnock Blackburn £1,500,000 22.01.2007
12. Florent S.-Pongolle Recreativo de Huelva£2,700,000 04.05.2007
13. Danny O' Donnell Crewe £100,000 13.06.2007
14. Djibril Cissé Marseille £6,000,000 09.07.2007
15. John Arne Riise AS Roma £4,000,000 01.07.2008
16. Anthony Le Tallec Le Mans Undisclosed 02.07.2008
Total: £43,750,000

[Penguins]

That argument won't work cause then Rafa would have had 43.75 million less to buy new players for most likely.

So i totally disagree.

Sorry Bigmick if I was a bit provocative but I was exadurating
to get get my point through.
Because that is how some fans/supporters really think it is.
Rafa is expected, yes expected to win the title no matter what, and no matter what circumstances are.
We are Liverpool, who has so many titles, so patience is zero
even if Rafa took over a team that had been also rans for 15 years.

And yes, I find that pathetic to demand miracles, or close to it
from a man that has brought belief back after a long period of suffering at incompetent leadership, which is not Rafa's fault.

Do I think rafa is some angel who never makes mistakes?
No, he makes mistakes, both tactically and in the transfer market. But so does everyone since mangers are also humans.
I still say Rafa does way fewer mistakes and lesser in significance than his other counterparts.

With the limited resources Liverpool has to give to any manager that represent the club I dare to say no one out there can do a much better job both by bring us success as much on as off the field.
Even if some doesn't care about the CL, players do and it makes a heck of a difference to our budget.
When you have less resources it is the sensible way to build from the back out and Rafa has done that.
But for us to get our offensive side sorted rafa would need
at least 50 million NET spend this summer without having been forced to sell to buy. Something that never has happened so far. Before Rafa came we had never been to a CL semifinal ever and a europena cup semi final since 85 and now we have been to the semis 3 times in the past 4 years, maybe even 4 times in the past 5 years!
But common sense will never prevail it seems as eveyone is just blinded by the title, title, title instead of seeing the great achievement Rafa has done with what he has been given.

He didn't exactly come to a finished product when he arrived.
No matter what some say that team was on the down and not 1 player that strengthened the team had arrrived the past 2 years. Even carragher and Gerrrard wasn't the same players as they are today, far from it. Carra was a bit part player and became a cornerstone in the team. Gerrard went from great to world class.
And the average age and value of the team. brrr

[fivecups]

That argument won't work cause then Rafa would have had 43.75 million less to buy new players for most likely.

So i totally disagree.

I'm not sure what you mean there - will you clarify?