Liverpool FC Forum

[Effes]

A new manager just wouldn't get the money for that mate, (Im not saying you were indicating otherwise).

What I was alluding to, was that a new manager wouldn't make any excuses,  he'd add
any "essentials" to the squad and then have a good feckin go at it.

[heimdall]

The scary thing was watching manure tonight, loads of youngsters in the team but still thrashed Fulham away. When people accuse me of being too critical it's only becuase I get so annoyed when I look at clubs like Arsenal, Manure and Chelsea and see how much better they are building for the future. IMHO we are standing absolutely still if not moving backwards, in relation to the others, under Rafa and that is what so p1sses me off.

A new manager inheriting the present squad would be fairly depressed I think although I think a motivator like Mourinhio could work much better with them becuase I think there is a hell of a lot more talent in the squad than rafa lets them show.

[Cool Hand Luke]

I thought I would list the 10 most expensive players in our squad in terms of transfer fee and compare them to Man Utd’s 10 most expensive players.

Please note that I gathered these figures purely as a fact finding mission and not with an anti or pro agenda.

It would be interesting to know peoples take on the figures which won’t be 100% accurate but close enough.

Liverpool

1. Fernando Torres – £25,000,000
2. Javier Mascherano – £18,600,000
3. Ryan Babel – £11,500,000
4. Xabi Alonso – £10,500,000
5. Dirk Kuyt – £9,000,000
6. Albert Riera – £8,000,000
7. Andrea Dossena – £7,000,000
8. Jermaine Pennant – £ 6,700,000
9. Martin Skrtel – £6,500,000
10. Pepe Reina – £6,000,000

Total = £108,800,000


Man Utd (excluding Carlos Tevez as he is on loan)

1. Dimitar Berbatov – £ 30,750,000
2. Rio Ferdinand – £ 29,100,000
3. Wayne Rooney – £27,600,000
4. Michael Carrick – £ 18,600,000
5. Anderson – £18,000,000
6. Owen Hargreaves – £17,000,000
7. Nani – £15,000,000
8. Cristiano Ronaldo – £ 12,240,000
9. Zoran Tosic – £8,000,000
10. Nemanja Vidic – £7,000,000

Total =£183,290,000



Difference: £74,490,000

[bigmick]

They're certainly interesting figures. I think Ferdinand was actually signed before Rafa became the manager. If we take that into account, and were Cisse and Robbie Keane still at the club my guess is it would be a whole lot closer than it looks there. We've also been in quite a good position in that we've had the services of Gerard for free, as well as Carragher.

I guess the thing which it indicates to me though is that 200 million quid (which is around what the two clubs have spent over the last five years) is an awful lot of money. It's a lot of money if you buy and sell 57 players or whatever it is we've done, and it's a lot of money if you concentrate your resources and buy good players and keep them. One policy appears to be more successful than the other though I think.

[Cool Hand Luke]

One thing that really irks me looking at the Man Utd squad is how many players they can call upon who came through their system and cost them nothing. The below list excluded all the youngsters Fergie has been using this season to rotate and fill gaps.

Gary Neville
Wes Brown
John O'Shea
Jonny Evans
Ryan Giggs
Paul Scholes
Darren Fletcher

[bigmick]

One thing that really irks me looking at the Man Utd squad is how many players they can call upon who came through their system and cost them nothing. The below list excluded all the youngsters Fergie has been using this season to rotate and fill gaps.

Gary Neville
Wes Brown
John O'Shea
Jonny Evans
Ryan Giggs
Paul Scholes
Darren Fletcher

Definately makes a huge difference Luke there's no question about it.That said, in fairness to our manager the fact he's been here five years rather than 20 is a reasonable excuse on that score. If he does stay on as manager, that's one area where we can hopefully espect to see huge improvements over the next couple of seasons.

[fivecups]

Tomkins breakdown of squad prices can be viewed here. in a similar way to CHL's. Don't know how to add these images to the thread.

[account deleted by request]

TRANSFERS

Year ending 1999

£32.2m   Gross Expenditure
£6.8m   Gross Income
£25.4m   Net Expenditure

Year ending 2000

£20.1m   Gross Expenditure
£5m   Gross Income
£15.1m   Net Expenditure

Year ending 2001

£20.5m   Gross Expenditure
£13.7m   Gross Income
£6.7m   Net Expenditure

Year ending 2002

£38.8m   Gross Expenditure
£15.4m   Gross Income
£23.4m   Net Expenditure

Year ending 2003

£16.9m   Gross Expenditure
£4.7m   Gross Income
£12.2m   Net Expenditure

Year ending 2004

£19.2m   Gross Expenditure
£2.3m   Gross Income
£16.9m   Net Expenditure

Year ending 2005

£46.1m   Gross Expenditure
£13.2m   Gross Income
£32.9m   Net Expenditure




Year ending 2006

£41.7m   Gross Expenditure
£16.8m   Gross Income
£24.9m   Net Expenditure

Year ending 2007

£70.0m   Gross Expenditure
£26.0m   Gross Income
£44.0m   Net Expenditure

Total between 1st August 1999 and  31st July 2007

£305.4m   Gross Expenditure
£103.9m   Gross Income
£201.5m   Net Expenditure

Between 1st August 2004 and 31st July 2007 LFCs transfer dealings were

£157.8m Gross expenditure
£55.9m gross income
£101.9m net expenditure


Since then can only be an estimate given some of the unknowns (Mascherano, Riera and Keane fees).


Figures ripped from RAWK supplied by TTNBD (He uses actual Liverpool accounts to obtain information)

[taff]

I thought I would list the 10 most expensive players in our squad in terms of transfer fee and compare them to Man Utd’s 10 most expensive players.

Please note that I gathered these figures purely as a fact finding mission and not with an anti or pro agenda.

It would be interesting to know peoples take on the figures which won’t be 100% accurate but close enough.

Liverpool

1. Fernando Torres – £25,000,000
2. Javier Mascherano – £18,600,000
3. Ryan Babel – £11,500,000
4. Xabi Alonso – £10,500,000
5. Dirk Kuyt – £9,000,000
6. Albert Riera – £8,000,000
7. Andrea Dossena – £7,000,000
8. Jermaine Pennant – £ 6,700,000
9. Martin Skrtel – £6,500,000
10. Pepe Reina – £6,000,000

Total = £108,800,000


Man Utd (excluding Carlos Tevez as he is on loan)

1. Dimitar Berbatov – £ 30,750,000
2. Rio Ferdinand – £ 29,100,000
3. Wayne Rooney – £27,600,000
4. Michael Carrick – £ 18,600,000
5. Anderson – £18,000,000
6. Owen Hargreaves – £17,000,000
7. Nani – £15,000,000
8. Cristiano Ronaldo – £ 12,240,000
9. Zoran Tosic – £8,000,000
10. Nemanja Vidic – £7,000,000

Total =£183,290,000



Difference: £74,490,000

74 million difference. That to me is a huge amount and no re working of the stats is going to make it different.  Compared to Man Uts and Chelsea we are behind in the spending ranks.  But I also dont see the point anymore in this thread as it just gets twisted to prove how poor Rafa is

[LegBarnes]

Ok question fella's I seen micks point about 22 man squad do we all think that is way to go ?

If so who in team would you like to see go with rafa if he leaves or gets sacked.

Who would you bring in to this prem winning 22

Any ideas ?

money is a thing here see if you can wheel and deal and lets say we get taken over and you get 60 mil transfer budget.

I would do mine right now but I am tierd I put mine up tomorrow at some point get transfering !!!

[heimdall]

Ok question fella's I seen micks point about 22 man squad do we all think that is way to go ?

If so who in team would you like to see go with rafa if he leaves or gets sacked.

Who would you bring in to this prem winning 22

Any ideas ?

money is a thing here see if you can wheel and deal and lets say we get taken over and you get 60 mil transfer budget.

I would do mine right now but I am tierd I put mine up tomorrow at some point get transfering !!!

I think if the squad, which is one of the biggest in the prem I think, is trimmed down to 22 then that would release some money, certainly in terms of wages, and that even the players who are unsuitable for us, e.g Babel, Lucas, Kuyt etc could still fetch a decent amount of money. I think the problem is firstly that a lot of the players are not good enough but more importantly that they are not the players we need. I think a new manager wouldn't be too unhappy looking at our squad but would identify quite a few areas that need improving as do most of us. 

[Flight]

Okay, I've seen different numbers bandied about from different sources with different "spin" about what it means.  Some have us as spending more than the Mancs under Rafa while others suggest we're well off the pace in our spending.  Some say we need to focus on net spend, while some contend that gross spend is a valid measure.  And, of course, everyone is using the spending figures--that is, the spending figures they find credible--to pass judgment on our progress under Rafa.  My sense is that all this information is kicking about in various threads so I thought it might be valuable to have one thread, where we might get to the bottom of how much we've spent under Rafa, relative to our chief rivals, and what that might mean when it comes to judging our progress.

To get the debate started, since I'm not up on all the nuances of our spending myself, I thought I'd bring in everyone's favourite pundit, Paul Tompkins, to chum the waters of debate as it were.


----
TOMKINS: END SHOCKING TRANSFER MYTH
Paul Tomkins 04 March 2009

Okay, it must end NOW! I've reached breaking point. The shocking transfer myth must be put to rest, once and for all.
paul tomkins

I've tried in the past, but the media misinformation continues to gather pace like some ill-founded rumour. It's dangerous, because it causes unjust criticism.

Let's make one thing clear: Liverpool have nowhere near the most expensive squad in the Premiership.

No. Where. Near.

Indeed, there are three clubs who have spent at least 50 per cent more on their current squad than Liverpool.

Shocked? Well, you should be if you believe what's spouted out on TV. But it's true. And one of the clubs is not a name you'd necessarily expect.

It doesn't help that some people – such as Jamie Redknapp last night – focus on Rafa's gross spend, rather than the net amount. Effectively, this means counting all the right-backs he's bought as one big outlay, rather than looking at how he's replaced one with another for roughly the same £2m fee.

Working with just the gross spend, you add the £2m of Josemi to the £2m value of Kromkamp (even though it was a swap), to the £2.6m paid for Arbeloa. But none of these players were at the club at the same time, and each was traded to get to the point where an outright success was secured, as happened with the final purchase.

So even though the total cost of getting Arbeloa was just the £2.6m paid, people will use a figure almost three times as high. That is illogical.

(Another note, Jamie: Liverpool have three right-backs on the books, not just one; but the promising Darby, like Arbeloa, was injured and Degen has had a first season ruined by various ailments. So it's wrong to criticise the manager for an unbalanced squad and playing a midfielder out of position when three right-backs are unavailable.)

It's like the housing market: you don't just go in and buy a mansion straight from school. (Okay, so maybe some footballers do, but not the normal people of this world. As someone stuck with renting, I'm speaking generally here!)

You start with an affordable house; you then use the money from selling that to buy your next property. Most people can only get to own a big house having traded their way up over a number of years.

Yet when someone asks how much you spent on your house, you don't add all the houses you've ever bought together, do you?

If you own a £220,000 house, you don't say £470,000 because you add the £90,000 starter home and the £160,000 step up. That would be moronic.

According to the excellent and reliable www.LFCHistory.net, Rafa's gross spend is approximately £188m, but his net spend is only £108m, given that around £80m has been recouped.

(I'd hazard a guess that a large proportion of the £108m net spend has also been recouped through Champions League progress rewards, particularly with the Reds being the top-ranked team based on his five-year tenure.)

So it's easy to pluck a figure of '£195m' from the air, live on air, and make it seem like that should make a team champions, or ultra-close challengers.

But it's only the cost of the current squad that counts. Because that's all a manager can choose from; he can't go back in time and select a player he sold in order to trade up, just as you can't just turn up to one of your old houses and let yourself in.

You simply cannot add Rafa having spent £5.8m on Sissoko to the £18m on Mascherano, because the two were never part of the same set-up; one was bought and sold for a profit, and as with a house, the money reinvested in a step-up. If Sissoko isn't bought and then sold, Mascherano probably doesn't arrive.

Is that really too tough to grasp?

From my own experience in writing 'Dynasty', I can attest that researching transfer fees is never easy, given the amount of undisclosed fees and various add-ons (for various things, like appearances, trophies won, national caps and the cultivation of unexpectedly daring hairstyles).

But taking each fee as the most a club has expect to pay when add-ons are activated, I've calculated the cost of the most expensive squads in the league, and listed them below.

(Note: while it's impossible to be 100 per cent accurate with the figures in the public domain, I'd say that overall it's at least 95 per cent of the true amount, and with rival teams I've actually been generous and excluded a couple of players whose cost just isn't listed anywhere I could find.)

The most expensive squads (excluding players out on long-term loan) are as follows:

Chelsea £207m
Manchester United £206m*
Spurs £188m
Manchester City £140m
Liverpool £127m

(*£226m if Carlos Tevez's deal made permanent, given that it is initially a unique two-year £10m agreement, and very different from 99.9 of transfer deals. Effectively United are winning games with a £30m player.)

So what does this tell us?

Let's start with the leaders. United's squad contains the most home-grown players, such as Giggs, Scholes, Neville, O'Shea, Brown and Fletcher, who all arrived for free.

So that shows that it is a long-established core supplemented by a lot of expensive signings added one by one to a unified collection. In other words, classic, spot-on building of a squad when already established at the very top.

But it shows that even if you work with the unfair use of Rafa's gross spend, it still doesn't match what Ferguson has spent on his current squad, let alone those who have been bought and sold for record fees in the past.

And this is utterly, utterly critical, and beyond the grasp of some people who cannot analyse things with common sense.

After all, what does it matter how much Rafa has spent since 2004 if Ferguson is currently fielding players like Ferdinand (£30m) and Ronaldo (£12.8m) who were bought before then?

Isn't Rafa – in the real world – competing with a team whose construction started well before he arrived?

Unless Ferguson is banned from fielding players like Ferdinand and Ronaldo (which would be illogical), or forced to start from scratch in 2004 (again illogical), it is not a fair comparison, is it? – I mean, come on, use your brain for a second here.

After all, how much as Harry Redknapp spent since he took over at Spurs? I make it almost £50m. How much has Rafa spent since Harry Redknapp took over at Spurs? Nothing. But only a nutter would compare the two in this deeply skewed way.

Rafa has been in his job about five times as long as Harry, so you obviously wouldn't dare compare their teams. And yet Ferguson has been in his job about five times as long as Rafa, and yet the Spaniard is expected to have Liverpool as champions by now.

Chelsea and Spurs are actually the more interesting examples in many ways. I knew Spurs had spent a lot, but to have a current squad that cost almost £200m shocked me. Add together the cost of Bentley, Pavyluchenko, Palacios, Bale, Defoe, Bent, Keane and Modric and you more-or-less end up with the cost of Liverpool's entire squad.

I could be sarcastic – or media-style sensationalistic – and say that with that much spent, any manager should be able to win almost all of his matches, but it wouldn't be fair or logical. It's far more complex than that, and even a good manager like Redknapp has his work cut out.

Chelsea and Spurs have had seven managers between them since 2007. This means different men making expensive signings and ending up with a mixed squad. Based on expenditure, both of these clubs are massively underachieving this season. Almost certainly to blame for that is the hierarchy having itchy fingers when it comes to firing managers.

Of course, this analysis doesn't include wages, either. You don't get the very top players in the world without also having to pay them a king's ransom. Michael Ballack must be most expensive free transfer ever, with wages reported to be around £130,000 a week, or about £30m over five years. Again, Liverpool are no way near the highest payers, either.

So there you have it. By all means print it out and pass it around; 'pass it on', as the saying goes, including to those in the media who could do with reading it. By all means quibble over some of the finer details, as there is a tolerance of a few percent on the accuracy of the figures, but the overall gist is very much sound and robust.

Note: as all good schoolteachers tell you to do, my workings are there to see, and will be available to view on my website.

LINK

Thomkins got the figures wrong in that article; he has apologised for it.


Rafa has only spent £80million, net, over 5 years and has had to replace all but three members of the first team (including nearly 36 year old Sami) as well as rebuilding the youth and reserve teams.

Players bought

Players sold


Anyone who criticizes Rafas expenditure is not in touch with reality.

[Flight]

Compare Rafas spend with what other Prem teams have spent on their squad :


Chelsea £207m
Manchester United £206m (without a fee for Carlos Tevez)
Spurs £188m
Manchester City £140m

Liverpool £88m

I don't know what Wengers is, but I'd be interested to find out. Also Arsenal pay nearly £20mill a year more in wages than we do.


Interesting that, the difference in our wage bill and Arsenals alone, is more than Rafa has had to spend on players.

[bigmick]

It's interesting and all that, but if you look at the sites which detail spend per club net, gross etc they don't agree with your figures. Anyway, as always it comes back to whether or not you believe in the manager and where he's taking us. It also comes down to what you cosider to be the pinnacle of your ambition.

I would have thought pretty much everyone believes in the manager as far as Europe is concerned, but it's in our league where the belief numbers thin out a bit. You fairly obviously believe not just in Europe, but also that in the league that he is getting us as high as is possible, and that presuemably one day we'll win it under him. I hope you're right, although obviously I don't share your belief domestically. We will no doubt find out over the next two or three seasons.

[Flight]

It's interesting and all that, but if you look at the sites which detail spend per club net, gross etc they don't agree with your figures. Anyway, as always it comes back to whether or not you believe in the manager and where he's taking us. It also comes down to what you cosider to be the pinnacle of your ambition.

I would have thought pretty much everyone believes in the manager as far as Europe is concerned, but it's in our league where the belief numbers thin out a bit. You fairly obviously believe not just in Europe, but also that in the league that he is getting us as high as is possible, and that presuemably one day we'll win it under him. I hope you're right, although obviously I don't share your belief domestically. We will no doubt find out over the next two or three seasons.

Good post mate and well said. Lets hope we continue to see improvement over the next 2-3 years.

Only thing I would propose is the figures I've quoted are from www.LFChistory.net which has na excellent reputation for stats and is no anti or pro Rafa.



Another point which needs taking into consideration is wages. If you are considering player costs then its wrong not to. Fortunately, we have a totally accurate source for this - Deloittes annual Football review. Heres the latest recorded annual wage costs  :


Chelsea - £114m
Manchester Utd - £85m
Arsenal - £83m
Liverpool - £69m
Newcastle Utd - £52m


Arsenals actually fell from the previous year by £6.7mill from £89.7 mill.


In other words. the difference in wage cost between us and Arsenal, on its own, is more than Rafa has had to spend on players since he got here.