Liverpool FC Forum

[JC_81]

He buys Cech and Robben (£19million)they were also his first purchases for Chelsea.

It's an interesting spin on things, but on the point above, Robben and Cech were signed by Chelsea - or at least the deals were set up - before they went for Mourinho as manager.  They weren't his signings actually.

I do think the gist of your post is right though, we do need more quality than quantity.

Just another pie in the sky suggestion, what if one of Mourinho's first 'Liverpool signings' in 2004/05 was Ferreira for 20-odd million? 

I argued this back when Chelsea were winning the league that the guts of that title winning squad was there before Mourinho went there.  Cech, Terry, Gallas, Lampard, Bridge, Joe Cole and Robben were all already there or had already agreed to sign when Mourinho arrived.  Mourinho made a solid team out of an already top class selection of players.  He added Carvalho and Drogba, and later Essien who were 3 big, big signings, but in the transfer market he didn't always make good decisions.

He let Diarra go after playing him at RB.  Ferreira was a bad buy.  They went over the top for Cashley Cole.  Ballack has underperformed.  Shevchenko was poor.  Mikel isn't up to it imo.  Kalou and Malouda were dreadful buys to replace Robben and Duff.

My point is we didn't have the luxury at that point of being able to spend 2o million on a player when the squad was in need of a complete overhaul.  We couldn't have afforded a 20 million flop.  Ours needed major reconstruction unlike the Chelsea one he inherited.  Wages is an issue too.  The likes of Drogba and Essien came in on salaries that were probably more than the likes of Gerrard were on at the time.

In the last 2-3 seasons though I completely agree.  We should have changed policy and spent bigger money on less players.

[account deleted by request]

It's easy to look at things from the armchair in hindsight. Robben is a good player but his character stinks and Essien has a dark streak about him I would not want either at this club. Whats to say both those players only went to chelsea becasue they saw they had loads of money so it was a given they would be surrounded by likewise talent.

I think you are missing the point I was trying to make Bav(most people do    ) I was trying to show that quality not quantity may have been a better way to go, whichever players were picked. They were just convienient choises for me mate, I have no doubt Mourinho would have bought differently at Liverpool than he did at Chelsea, as the teams needed strengthening in different areas.

[account deleted by request]

He buys Cech and Robben (£19million)they were also his first purchases for Chelsea.

It's an interesting spin on things, but on the point above, Robben and Cech were signed by Chelsea - or at least the deals were set up - before they went for Mourinho as manager.  They weren't his signings actually.

I do think the gist of your post is right though, we do need more quality than quantity.

Just another pie in the sky suggestion, what if one of Mourinho's first 'Liverpool signings' in 2004/05 was Ferreira for 20-odd million? 

I argued this back when Chelsea were winning the league that the guts of that title winning squad was there before Mourinho went there.  Cech, Terry, Gallas, Lampard, Bridge, Joe Cole and Robben were all already there or had already agreed to sign when Mourinho arrived.  Mourinho made a solid team out of an already top class selection of players.  He added Carvalho and Drogba, and later Essien who were 3 big, big signings, but in the transfer market he didn't always make good decisions.

He let Diarra go after playing him at RB.  Ferreira was a bad buy.  They went over the top for Cashley Cole.  Ballack has underperformed.  Shevchenko was poor.  Mikel isn't up to it imo.  Kalou and Malouda were dreadful buys to replace Robben and Duff.

My point is we didn't have the luxury at that point of being able to spend 2o million on a player when the squad was in need of a complete overhaul.  We couldn't have afforded a 20 million flop.  Ours needed major reconstruction unlike the Chelsea one he inherited.  Wages is an issue too.  The likes of Drogba and Essien came in on salaries that were probably more than the likes of Gerrard were on at the time.

In the last 2-3 seasons though I completely agree.  We should have changed policy and spent bigger money on less players.

Hopefully my post to Bav above will have answered most of your points mate, but I do admit that Mourinho's buying is not perfect by any means.

My opinion is Rafa has had three pretty good seasons in the transfer market and two pretty awful ones (2006 and this season)

[Bad Bob]

Just for a moment IMAGINE Mourinho had taken over Liverpool back in 2004. 

1st season
He comes in and looks at the squad and instead of buying Josemi, Xabi and Garcia (£20million) manages to persuade Owen to stay (not impossible for a manager of his charisma ? ) He buys Cech and Robben (£19million)they were also his first purchases for Chelsea.

Interesting, 'what if' scenario, mate.  Alternatively, let's imagine that Jose comes in and Owen still leaves because, charismatic or not, Mourinho's Liverpool still look like a massive project and the lure of Madrid is strong.  Let's also imagine that he doesn't get Robben because, after all, he never signed him in the first place, Ranieri did (LINK) and only because Abramovich offered PSV more money than Man U...two teams that would surely have outbid us no bother in 2004 (and would Robben, who pre-signed for Chelsea in March of 2004, have want to come here with Houllier still in charge anyway?).  Let's then imagine that Jose also failed to sign Cech because, again, Ranieri had already lined him up for Chelsea long before Jose was hired/Houllier was fired (LINK). 

No, I think a far more likely scenario is that, in his first season at Liverpool, given the funds available, Jose would have been doing his shopping in Portugal and we would have been seeing the likes of Tiago, Paulo Ferreira, Helder Postiga and perhaps Ricardo Carvalho in the team.  You might still make a case that these players would have filled some holes in their own right but I think the prospects are a little less sunny than the scenario you've outlined.

[Bad Bob]

He buys Cech and Robben (£19million)they were also his first purchases for Chelsea.

It's an interesting spin on things, but on the point above, Robben and Cech were signed by Chelsea - or at least the deals were set up - before they went for Mourinho as manager.  They weren't his signings actually.

I do think the gist of your post is right though, we do need more quality than quantity.

Just another pie in the sky suggestion, what if one of Mourinho's first 'Liverpool signings' in 2004/05 was Ferreira for 20-odd million? 

I argued this back when Chelsea were winning the league that the guts of that title winning squad was there before Mourinho went there.  Cech, Terry, Gallas, Lampard, Bridge, Joe Cole and Robben were all already there or had already agreed to sign when Mourinho arrived.  Mourinho made a solid team out of an already top class selection of players.  He added Carvalho and Drogba, and later Essien who were 3 big, big signings, but in the transfer market he didn't always make good decisions.

He let Diarra go after playing him at RB.  Ferreira was a bad buy.  They went over the top for Cashley Cole.  Ballack has underperformed.  Shevchenko was poor.  Mikel isn't up to it imo.  Kalou and Malouda were dreadful buys to replace Robben and Duff.

My point is we didn't have the luxury at that point of being able to spend 2o million on a player when the squad was in need of a complete overhaul.  We couldn't have afforded a 20 million flop.  Ours needed major reconstruction unlike the Chelsea one he inherited.  Wages is an issue too.  The likes of Drogba and Essien came in on salaries that were probably more than the likes of Gerrard were on at the time.

In the last 2-3 seasons though I completely agree.  We should have changed policy and spent bigger money on less players.

Dammit, you take all the time to dig out the links and lay out the post and, in the meantime, someone else waltzes in, makes all the points you were making and moves on. 

[account deleted by request]

The point is not who he bought in my imaginary scenario, but maybe a different buying policy ? Maybe more selective and less scattergun than Rafa ? 

That was the only point I was really trying to make, the rest was just a bit of fun (for me if no-one else    )

I genuinely didn't know he didn't buy Cech or Robben..... bit of a surprise that! Although I could argue that maybe it was similar to Arsenal with Vierra in that he may have picked them even though he wasn't manager at the time?

[tubby]

Well this summer (assuming he signs the new contract) he has to be able to splash out and bring in real quality on the right, at RB and up front.

[Flight]

The point is not who he bought in my imaginary scenario, but maybe a different buying policy ? Maybe more selective and less scattergun than Rafa ? 

I'm not sure how Rafa could have been less scattergun'.

Of the squad he had when he arrived only three are good enouch and not crocked so able to still be here, one of them is Sami, who is nearing the end of his career.

Rafa has had to buy pretty much two players for every position on the pitch. On top of that he has had to buy reserves and youth players.


Not only has he done well at that, we now have the strongest first 11 we have had in two decades and, for the first time since 1985, we are the top ranked team in Europe by EUFA.

[account deleted by request]

The point is not who he bought in my imaginary scenario, but maybe a different buying policy ? Maybe more selective and less scattergun than Rafa ? 

I'm not sure how Rafa could have been less scattergun'.

Of the squad he had when he arrived only three are good enouch and not crocked so able to still be here, one of them is Sami, who is nearing the end of his career.

Rafa has had to buy pretty much two players for every position on the pitch. On top of that he has had to buy reserves and youth players.


Not only has he done well at that, we now have the strongest first 11 we have had in two decades and, for the first time since 1985, we are the top ranked team in Europe by EUFA.

After 5 years that goes for virtually ANY team mate. Take a look at the mancs five years ago and then today. Only really Giggs ,Neville, Scholes and Ferdinand left. And three out of the four are no longer considered regulars.

We had a good enough team to win the CL, win the FA CUP and attain the highest points we have so far by the end of 2006. Since then we have spent £140 million and won nothing.

Maybe the scattergun approach didn't work quite so well ? 

While finishing top of any table is nice, I would prefer to be sat at the top of the League table rather than a top ranked in Europe table.

We have the strongest eleven we have had in two decades ......and yet have won less with it than we did with a team that was full of poor players (according to some)

[tubby]

Saint if that 140Mil was spent on perhaps 3 or 4 players we might have won something but it has been spent on many players as Rafa does not have that kind of money to buy proven quality 1st time.

[Effes]

The sattergun approach hasn't orked for me, if anything it was to sustain Rafa's rotation
policy that he follows like the Bible.

We are not gonna see anything new off Rafa - I agree with the conception that if we/Rafa find ourselves
in a similar position next New year, we will see poorer teams fielded for Champs League progress.

Rafa is in a way, sustaining is own reign at Liverpool by Champs League progression to the latter stages.
The revenue we accrue comes in very handy indeed.

My thoughts are - sacking a manager is only a good idea if you get someone in who is better.

I'll begrudgingly stick for the time being, and just hope something happens in the league.

[oakton]

Rafa has had to buy pretty much two players for every position on the pitch. On top of that he has had to buy reserves and youth players.


Not only has he done well at that, we now have the strongest first 11 we have had in two decades and, for the first time since 1985, we are the top ranked team in Europe by EUFA.

no he hasn't
we still need another striker, 2 wingers and 2 full backs

[bigmick]

It's unfortunate after GYBS's intervention that all threads turn into Mourinho ones, particularly given the FACT that he won't ever be managing Liverpool. As for the Robben and Cech signings, it's true they were signed by Ranieri. As it happens though, in my eyes the absolutely stengthens the perception that he (Mourinho) did an unbelieveable job at Chelsea.

He arrived at a club who had finished second in the league the previous season. They had been eleven points behind the winners (Arsenal) and had picked up 79 points. This was in Ranieri's final season, when he'd been at Chelsea for four seasons I think it was, and had spent large chucks of Abrhamovic's money. BTW, I've got a hunch that Ranieri also signed Makekeli but I might be wrong on that. Anyway, he took over from the arch rotator Ranieri, and he was walking into a Premiership in which Arsenal had gone unbeaten throughout the previous season (and were a fantastic team, they would have p!ssed on this Manc one IMHO) and he also had a rejuvenated and determined Manc team to deal with, as well as us raring to go under Rafa, and looking to improve on the fourth of Houlliers final season.

He had a good squad, but he also had the likes of Robben and Cech, not his signings and I assume he had never met them before, to shape into a team. Yes he bought some big time players, but even then that brings disharmony into a dressing room as players come in on big money. Stalwarts such as John Terry and Frank Lampard could have been forgiven for thinking they were getting bypassed, while the signings who had been recruited by Ranieri could have been forgiven for thinking they'd walked into a circus. The new signings of course didn't have a season or two to get acclimatised. Carvalho didn't have a dozen games to get bossed by centre forwards before he realised the physicality of the league, Drogba had to score from game one, and the unfairly I think maligned Paulo Ferriera had to get into it from game one.

And did they ever get into it? Ranieri's signings, Mourinho's signings, players already there, they gelled instantly. One of the first things Mourinho did was decide that he wanted a squad of 22 players and no more. He has a theory that too many players means it's hard to keep them all happy, harder to get the squad to gel, encourages the manager to rotate too much. So anyway he sold off a bunch of players and went with his 22. Could he overhaul an 11 point deficit against Arsenal though, and stay ahead of the Mancs? How would we go? Would the new players gel? Who were these blokes Robben and Cech, would they take to the new manager? Would the new manager take to them as they weren't his signings?

The rest of course is history. 95 points, a Premiership record and a league title which was in the bag long before the end of the season. Unbelieveable.

Anyway, this thread is about how well we've spent 200 million quid, lets talk about that. Question, if Rafa did leave and go to Real Madrid at the end of the season, how would a new manager view the squad he has been left, particularly if the owners said there was little money for new transfers?

[Effes]

Anyway, this thread is about how well we've spent 200 million quid, lets talk about that. Question, if Rafa did leave and go to Real Madris at the end of the season, how would a new manager view the squad he has been left, particularly if the owners said there waslittle money for new transfers?

Ive had "moments" this season Mick, where Ive just had a hunch Rafa is gonna go.
Ive had mixed feelings about it too.

Re a new manager - only a manager worth his salt is gonna pick the squad up and go with it, adding a RM and striker to boot.
Any manager insisting it needs an overhaul or a cash injection, will stumble and fail.

[bigmick]

Anyway, this thread is about how well we've spent 200 million quid, lets talk about that. Question, if Rafa did leave and go to Real Madris at the end of the season, how would a new manager view the squad he has been left, particularly if the owners said there waslittle money for new transfers?

Ive had "moments" this season Mick, where Ive just had a hunch Rafa is gonna go.
Ive had mixed feelings about it too.

Re a new manager - only a manager worth his salt is gonna pick the squad up and go with it, adding a RM and striker to boot.
Any manager insisting it needs an overhaul or a cash injection, will stumble and fail.

We need more than a RM and a striker Eff. We need at least two strikers IMHO unless you take the view that either N'Gog or Babel are up to it. Strikers get injured, if you only sgn one, what happens when Torres gets injured? We play the new bloke, and what happens when you need to bring a new striker on as sub/need to rest someone/he gets suspended etc? You cannot seriously expect to challenge for the title if David N'Gog plays as your lone striker over often. We need AT LEAST two strikers IMHO, and they normally cost money, lots of it.

We need a right midfielder. I won't say any more or the thread will be four pages longer in ten minutes time.

We need cover for our left midfielder, and we need cover for our right back. Depending on how long we are going to keep wheeling Hyppia out, we are going to need a centre half as well.

We don't have anybody who is young, on the fringe of the first team and looking like they are a fantastic prospect (blokes like Pachecho are not near the team yet). I'm on about blokes who have made a dozen appearances as sub and everyone knows they are going to make it. Remember players like Gerrard, Owen, Fowler etc. Players like that I mean.

The squad is ill balanced, threadbare in places and needs an overhaul. This applies regardless of who is the manager. the only way around that, is if someone can get say Babel to suddently become the footballer he's looked like he could possibily be in flashes. Perhaps someone can get inside El Zhars head and make him into a quality right midifelder. Maybe Lucas could suddently develop under careful nurturing. Given the likelyhood of any of that happening at the moment under the current and probably future regime, we probably need some new players.