Liverpool FC Forum

[LFC2007]

The mancs sold Beckham , sold Van Nistelroy . Chelsea sold Gallas, Duff and Robben, all players that would walk into our team at the time they were sold. When have we had to sell a player that would get in one of their teams?

Up to now we have never been a selling club, we don't sell good players. Maybe things will change this season, but up to now we have only sold players when we thought we had better, or they wanted to go. So to use the fact that along with every other club we have to sell players who have been or are going to be replaced as a reason for our current problems is a little misleading.

If money wasn't an issue I suspect we would've kept Bellamy and wouldn't have opted for Voronin.

If the offer for Sissoko wasn't as reasonable as it turned out to be and the fact that we required a CB, I think Rafa would've kept him. The offer was reasonable, it also happened to coincide with Sissoko's poor form and Mascherano's good form, so he was sold.

Ideally too, I think Rafa would've kept Garcia.

We've sold playing values which ideally Rafa would've liked to have kept, but for the fact that the offers were reasonable, in tandom with the fact we needed to fund more important targets in the likes of Mascherano, Babel, Torres and Skrtel.

[LFC2007]

1) It was part of the Torres deal, I believe, perhaps that was a necessity in order to sanction the deal?

1) Two seperate deals as far as I am aware, Garcia was infact sold before we bought Torres. The point being that Garcia wanted to go.

   

2) Because Mascherano's form was excellent, and Sissoko's was very poor at that time. His opportunity to play at Juventus isn't being inhibited by the form of top class midfielders.

2) So infact there would have been no point keeping Sissoko if he couldn't play without being inhibited by the form of our top class midfielders?

3) With hindsight, it's very comfy to judge. Kuyt's goal ratio was pretty good in his first season, indeed, esteemed poster Bigmick, and others thought he'd be a 'legend'. Voronin, a poor signing. Every manager has them.

3) The only way you can judge a managers success or failure in the transfer market is with hindsight ?

We had to sell in order to buy, therefore placing an immediate contraint on our ability to spend in the transfer window. Not every club has that, just ask Chelsea, Man U, Barcelona, Real Madrid, AC Milan, Inter Milan.

4) All clubs have to work within the limits of their budget (even Chelsea will have a budget however loosely structured) Most clubs have to sell good players......  we are one of the few clubs that don't sell our stars. (unless they ask to go)

(Milan) Shevchenko (Madrid) Makelele,(Barca)Figo, (Inter) Zidane, I have already mentioned cHELSEA AND THE MANCS etc etc

1) I'm not certain, but I was under the impression that he was part of the Torres deal. The amount of first team action he's getting at Atletico isn't that dissimilar from what we was getting with us. Surely he could've foreseen that prospect given the quality they have up front and on the wings?


2) Or perhaps Rafa would've preferred to keep him, as when he's on form he's an exceptional player? Competition for places is healthy, and most top teams have plenty of midfield options.

3) Correct, and hence, at the start of the season the decision to play Kuyt was based on his form from the previous season, when he was a legend in making.

4) Correct, we don't sell our best players if we can help it. I'm merely stating that having to sell before you buy is a constraint.

[ruskiy playmaker]

This may not be relevant, but I have no doubt that Rafa would win the league with Man U and Chelsea's squad.

[hello_red]

This may not be relevant, but I have no doubt that Rafa would win the league with Man U and Chelsea's squad.

Agreed.

But then again most managers could I suppose but I see your point very clearly.

[bigmick]

It really does come down to the same question in the end. You can talk about this signing, that signing, this selection, the delayed gazelle or whatever else you want. It's as simple as this.

Is it possible, given the financial situation at Liverpool Football Club for the team to CHALLENGE FOR the title? If it is, and the current manager continues to fail to launch such a challenge, then it is reasonable to change him for somebody else. If it isn't infact possible to challenge under the circumstances, then it follows that sacking him for not achieving the impossible is unfair.






Now from my point of view, it is reasonable given the circumstances to expect a title challenge, at least for a fleeting week or two, once in four seasons. It follows from that that I think it is possible to do such a thing. If I didn't think it was possible, I would stick with Rafa because at least he seems like a nice enough bloke and we get the rudimentary Champions League run each year.


On the other hand of course, if we stick with Rafa and do actually challenge for the title, then all is good. It's probably worth noting that in my opinion, the team with which we played the majority of the last 20 or so games with last season is probably just about good enough to challenge for the title without any additions at all. Having said that (and before the thought police are in like a shot) I am not suggesting we don't buy anybody, that we play the same team in every single game, that we take on Sam Allardyce as fitness coach, that if we didn't rotate we'd p!ss the league or any other outlandishly mythical nonsense.

What I am saying, is that if we actually went for it we would already have challenged for the league during Rafa's reign and we wouldn't be having this particular debate. Anyhow, good thread.

[account deleted by request]

I think there will always be excuses and reasons for any manager to fail, but surely we should be looking for our manager to overcome obstacles rather than fall down before them! To get the players and the team performing to the best of their ability, rather than looking off form and struggling for no apparent reason.

I believe like Mick that our team is good enough to make a challenge.

Who can honestly say that they think Rafa got the best out of our players in every game last season? How many of our players reached their best level consistently?

We underperformed in so many games last season..... some we got away with like Derby away, other times we wern't so lucky and suffered surprising, if not humiliating defeats such as Marseille, Barnsley and Besiktas. Games in which we lost or drew not because we were assailing their goal but just couldn't get the ball in the net such as at Blackburn away , but games when we never really looked at the races such as Portsmouth and Spurs or Reading.

We need our best players playing to their optimum level and some of our other players having a great season if we are to challenge. I am not saying that £100million transfer fund wouldn't help, but if we haven't got it we have to look for other ways to bridge the gap.

FFS City did the double over the mancs, yet we get rolled over twice. Its not all about luck, to a large extent you make your own luck over the course of a season.

Reasonable expectations from any manager is getting the team to play to its best level regularly. I honestly believe Rafa failed to do this last season, if he fails again, even though we have no money, big problems with the owners and players that are tired from the Euro's I think he should go.

If at the end of the season we can look back and say we give it our best shot, did the best we can and come close (or even better win it) then he should get more time.

I honestly don't believe we gave it our best shot last season, I don't believe we did the best we could and we certainly never came close. (no matter how people try to manipulate the facts)

[Bad Bob]

Even as an avowed happy clapper I'd be prepared to see Rafa go if we produce another season like this one, all things being equal.  If we consistently draw games we should be winning, fail to turn over our main rivals in at least a couple of head-to-head games and fall out of the title race before Christmas and end up competing with the likes of Everton or Villa for fourth again I think it would be completely fair to say that we have stagnated under Rafa and we should look to other options.  My hope, of course, is that Rafa and the players bounce back from this season's disappointments in the right way and that this debate becomes more and more academic as next season progresses.

[Dalglish]

I think even the notoriously stubborn Rafa Benitez has learned many valuable lessons this season.

The first half of the season was spent rotating playters who would subsequently be fresh for the title run in .................. a run in that ultimately never came . I think Rafa's learned from that although in his defence we won all but one of the remaining 8 League games !

The month of January saw no League wins whatsover, a time when the club was in turmoil, Rafa will have noted that.

We drew too many games at home. Rafa will have taken note

We lost fewer games than in any Premiership season (4) , (Utd lost 5) Rafa will have learned from that.

The idea that we as fans have highlighted issues and scenarios that Rafa hasn't already thought of and analysed is both foolish and folly. The mans an obsessive and will probably still be all over this last season like a cheap suit !

I'm naturally cautious when it comes to change and it's why I'm reluctant to say that next season IS Rafa's last chance to land the Holy Grail. The reason why I don't think Rafa should go if he is unsuccessful is that I don't think we could get a  better manager who could do more than what he has for this club.

Arsenal haven't won the title for 4 years and underachieve in Europe to boot but Wenger's not on the chopping block from either the board or the terraces so why Benitez ?

Lets hope he lands the fecker then we don't have to discuss the options if he doesn't ! 

[red37]

I'm naturally cautious when it comes to change and it's why I'm reluctant to say that next season IS Rafa's last chance to land the Holy Grail.

Given the turbulent circumstances within the boardroom and the constraints placed upon the manager inherant with that...it maybe unfair to classify next season as 'the last chance saloon'. Now whether or not that turns out to be the case doesn't lessen the fact that, in my eyes Rafa deserves at least the minimum oportunity of a chance to redress the balance sailing upon somewhat calmer waters....should finances permit. Ultimately, the ownership of the club would determine that scenario becoming a reality or not.

Given a strong hand and the necessary backing to attempt to compete. I still believe he has it within him to orchestrate a League championship triumph.

[account deleted by request]

Arsenal haven't won the title for 4 years and underachieve in Europe to boot but Wenger's not on the chopping block from either the board or the terraces so why Benitez ?

While I don't want to get into the whole "Kissing Wengers " scenario, I think if we had sold all our best players whilst still maintaining a top 4 position and spending less than Everton, had actually challenged for the title rather than just being along for the ride and had played some of the best football in the prem for a number of years, we might be a little happier and more patient, especially as he has actually won the title a few times.

[Dalglish]

While I don't want to get into the whole "Kissing Wengers " scenario, I think if we had sold all our best players whilst still maintaining a top 4 position and spending less than Everton, had actually challenged for the title rather than just being along for the ride and had played some of the best football in the prem for a number of years, we might be a little happier and more patient, especially as he has actually won the title a few times

Theres an element of truth in everyones viewpoint on the matter Saint and your case is a strong one.

I suppose it comes down to individuals take on whether as a club we ought to be sacking managers, particularly ones who have led us to 2 CL finals, 1 FA Cup Final and 1 Carling Cup final, balanced the financial books, signed one of the most exciting forwards we have ever seen, kept the Worlds nest midfielder at the club and perhaps above all presided over some of the most exciting games of football we have ever seen and done so in a manner befitting of the Liverpool Way ..........

For all but a handful of clubs, talk of winning the Premiership is a fanciful dream. Maybe Benitez's greatest mistake is actually raising our expectations to the point where many of us started to dream that we could win it !

[account deleted by request]

While I don't want to get into the whole "Kissing Wengers " scenario, I think if we had sold all our best players whilst still maintaining a top 4 position and spending less than Everton, had actually challenged for the title rather than just being along for the ride and had played some of the best football in the prem for a number of years, we might be a little happier and more patient, especially as he has actually won the title a few times

Theres an element of truth in everyones viewpoint on the matter Saint and your case is a strong one.

I suppose it comes down to individuals take on whether as a club we ought to be sacking managers, particularly ones who have led us to 2 CL finals, 1 FA Cup Final and 1 Carling Cup final, balanced the financial books, signed one of the most exciting forwards we have ever seen, kept the Worlds nest midfielder at the club and perhaps above all presided over some of the most exciting games of football we have ever seen and done so in a manner befitting of the Liverpool Way ..........

For all but a handful of clubs, talk of winning the Premiership is a fanciful dream. Maybe Benitez's greatest mistake is actually raising our expectations to the point where many of us started to dream that we could win it !

The problem for me mate is that he reached 2 finals and won one with BASICALLY Houlliers team, spent £150million improving it and we are in the same position we were before he came .......4th.

We have a stronger team....... I would hope so after spending so much!  Yet we have achieved much less. First two seasons with mainly Houlliers players a CL win, an fa cup win, and a league cup final. Last two years with Rafa's players a CL final. Progress?

As for finals mate, we have been behind in every final we have played under Rafa, and our eventual wins have been more down to the individual efforts of an inspirational Gerrard and players who wern't in the original first eleven than anything else.

Balanced the books? We lost £21million last year, £5million the year before ?

Kept the best midfielder at the club? I thought it was Gerrards family that persuaded Gerrard to stay..... not Rafa!

The expectations have ALWAYS BEEN THERE. They were there under Evans.... remember when we bought Ince! There under Houllier 4th,3rd,2nd ...... who didn't expect 1st the season after?

The problem as I see it is we have stalled this season, we all wished and hoped for a great striker to fire us to the title...... we got the great striker but no title!

Like Kuyt, I am not arguing about his character just questioning his ability in the league! I hope he proves me wrong, but I don't think we will see a title under Rafa unless DIC come in and buy the players he needs, I think maybe someone else could do it with less.

I don't believe that every player or manager we have is necessarily the best, there is always bigger and better out there. I don't believe there is no-one who can do as good a job or better job than Rafa.

I think there are a few out there who could manage to get us 4th place!

I think if we haven't challenged for the title in 5 seasons the likelyhood of us ever challenging under Rafa without a huge input of funds begins to look slender. In which case I would suggest that we should look elsewhere for someone who can approach the problem in a different way.


I was undecided last season as to what we should do, similar failure this season and I will have no doubts mate.

[LFC2007]

Better get him out of here sharpish then.

[account deleted by request]

Better get him out of here sharpish then.

No rush, you need to be more patient,  lets give him his last chance first, you never know DIC may come to his and our rescue yet.

[bigmick]

Better get him out of here sharpish then.

No rush, you need to be more patient,  lets give him his last chance first, you never know DIC may come to his and our rescue yet.

It's an interesting one this DIC thing though Saint. I don't suppose for one second that having a huge wadge of cash makes it anything other than much easier to build a top class team, but it might not be the be all and end all.

For example, a couple of people have said that Rafa would win the Premiership if he was the manager of either Chelsea or Manchester United, and I guess he probably would go very close. Say for instance though that DIC took over tomorrow and saud Abrhamovich style, "go and buy who you wantski" would he then deliver the title? Obviously nobody knows the answer, we're all merely guessing but it would be an interesting one.

My feeling is that it is absolutely impossible for us to win the Premiership next season, regardless of who is the manager. That's not because we are outgunned financially, there have been  dodgy emails in Texas or any of that nonsense, it's simply because we are coming from too far back. I've long said that winning the title is like climbing Everest, first you've got to set up camp below the summit and go from there. This was the travesty of last season, our abject failure to ever get into position means we wasted an opportunity to set ourselves up for next term. The best we can hope for in my opinion is to launch a significant challenge, before finishing within five or six points of the eventual winners (which will almost certainly be Man Utd again).

Anyway, back tothe question about funds. If you gave Rafa unlimited funds, how long would it take for him to get a credible challenge off the ground, and would it happen at all? My guess is it would, but you'd be looking at probably two or three seasons from now for a realistic push forthe title, what with bedding players in and the like.