Liverpool FC Forum

[Owzat]

A lot of people have already written in stone that we've had a bad start to the season. Well in terms of the first three games yes, but at what point does it stop being labelled thus?

So here's some stats to put into perspective our start to the season.

Best Liverpool Premiership Starts

1. 96/97 : P6 W4 D2 L0 F11 A4 PTS 14 (GD +7)
2. 08/09 : P6 W4 D2 L0 F7 A2 PTS 14 (GD +5)
3. 93/94 : P6 W4 D0 L2 F13 A4 PTS 12 (GD +9)
4. 07/08 : P6 W3 D3 L0 F11 A2 PTS 12 (GD +9)
5. 09/10 : P6 W4 D0 L2 F16 A9 PTS 12 (GD +7)
6. 02/03 : P6 W3 D3 L0 F13 A8 PTS 12 (GD +5)
7. 95/96 : P6 W4 D0 L2 F8 A3 PTS 12 (GD +5)
8. 01/02 : P6 W3 D3 L0 F10 A7 PTS 12 (GD +3)

So in fact it's our 5th best start to a Premiership season, two better on GD and two better only by two points - not bad considering we lost two of the first three games.

It also happens to be a free scoring start, most scored by us in a Premiership season after six games but also equal most conceded, level with 92/93 and 00/01.

The champions of the previous three seasons started off with 11-13 points so pretty much as 'poorly' as we did. In fact only six times have the Champions picked up more than 12 points in the first six games in the past 13 seasons

Champions' Premiership Starts - Last 13 Seasons

01. 05/06 : P6 W6 D0 L0 F12 A0 PTS 18 (GD +12)
02. 99/00 : P6 W5 D1 L0 F16 A4 PTS 16 (GD +12)
03. 00/01 : P6 W4 D2 L0 F17 A4 PTS 14 (GD +13)
04. 03/04 : P6 W4 D2 L0 F11 A3 PTS 14 (GD +8)
05. 04/05 : P6 W4 D2 L0 F6 A1 PTS 14 (GD +5)
06. 06/07 : P6 W4 D1 L1 F12 A4 PTS 13 (GD +8)
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07. 96/97 : P6 W3 D3 L0 F16 A6 PTS 12 (GD +10)
08. 97/98 : P6 W3 D3 L0 F13 A6 PTS 12 (GD +7)
09. 01/02 : P6 W3 D2 L1 F14 A5 PTS 11 (GD +9)
10. 98/99 : P6 W3 D2 L1 F10 A6 PTS 11 (GD +4)
11. 08/09 : P6 W3 D2 L1 F8 A4 PTS 11 (GD +4)
12. 07/08 : P6 W3 D2 L1 F4 A2 PTS 11 (GD +2)
13. 02/03 : P6 W2 D2 L2 F5 A5 PTS 8 (GD 0)

So you could say our start is par for Champions, losing isn't the only way to drop points and we've lost as many as any of the previous 13 Champions and yet are still right in the mix.

So all in all we're not doing that badly compared to our own previous starts, and not so bad compared to starts made by previous Champions. If we continue to score relatively freely and can stop a few sloppy and needlessly conceded goals, then we could and should be in the mix.

We won only three games in the Premiership by the scoreline 3-2 last season, this season we've won two by that scoreline already. Two of last season's three 3-2 wins came in games 7-8. We've scored 3+ goals in all our league wins so far this season. Last season 14 of our 25 wins came scoring 3+ goals, a further seven by scoring two goals and only four via a 1-0 scoreline (Sunderland, Chelsea and Fulham away, Portsmouth at home) Evidence points towards scoring more, the defence a concern but it alone is not going to win us the league. If we continue scoring at this rate we would score 101 goals which would be a Premiership record - currently 97 set in 99/00 when Man Utd started with 16 goals in their first six games......................

[The_Rock]

Depends on where u stand :

1)If u want to win the league this season, then its a bad start.

2)If u think getting 4th is enough...then its a good/ok start.

[Owzat]

Depends on where u stand :

1)If u want to win the league this season, then its a bad start.

2)If u think getting 4th is enough...then its a good/ok start.

But did you not look at the stats? Last two seasons Man Utd picked up just ELEVEN points from their first six games, and we're only one point worse off than the season before that when they picked up just THIRTEEN.

Have you been swayed by the media/general consensus? The whole point of this thread was to show that it isn't as bad as people are making out, not even in title challenge terms. You could point to the start that Chelsea have made and say they are way ahead, but then we were way ahead of the mancs last season (seven points at one stage) and yet we didn't win the league.

No, getting 4th isn't 'enough', but I'm open enough to the fact that the mancs have made bad starts and then gone on winning runs to surge up from behind and pass the early pace-setters. We seem to at least be scoring goals and not drawing which is something very positive.

And when it suits, plenty will quote the cliche about winning when playing ugly being the sign of Champions, yet because we've lost twice already people have written us off - I didn't expect Liverpool fans to be quite so ready to write us off.

[JC_81]

Good thread.

I realised that points wise we're not actually looking that bad compared to previous seasons, interesting to see those stats though.

What I would say though is that this season there seem to be a lot of teams off to good starts in the league which made our 2 losses look all the worse.

Chelsea have won 5 from 5, United, Spurs and Villa 4 from 5 and Man City 4 from 4.  That's 5 teams with better records than us so far and Arsenal have won 3 from 5 having got tough away games at Man City and Man United out of the way.  So arguably all of the other 6 teams who have a chance of top 4 this season (imo Villa and Spurs probably don't really) are in a better position than us. 

The league is going to be tough this season, I think the winners will probably lose 5 maybe 6 games.  The key is going to be making sure you beat the little teams because we can't afford draws against them this season.  In the big games all the teams will take points off each other.  Matching what we did against them last season will be near impossible though I think.

[The_Rock]

But did you not look at the stats? Last two seasons Man Utd picked up just ELEVEN points from their first six games, and we're only one point worse off than the season before that when they picked up just THIRTEEN.

Thats the thing....(and i say this with a heavy heart) we are not manure utd. Its already a given that manure usually have a mediore start by their standard...and then they go on to have their winning run throughout x'mas and bang they are leading the pack again.

Can you see us doing that ? I really hope we can, but...... Maybe i will reserve my judgement after we play chelsea in a few weeks.........

[bigmick]

It's probably worht pointing out that we've only had two properly tricky fixtures so far (arguably three if you include West Ham away) and we've lost both of them. We'll beat Hull at Home next weekend as well which will make the stats look better, but I still think we are further behind the 8 ball than I would like. Arsenal for instance are three points behind us but with a game in hand, but they have been to both Old Trafford and to whatever the feck Man City's ground is called these days, as well as Goodison which is never easy.

No, it's not been good but at least we appear to be up and running now. I do think however that if we lose at Stamford Bridge in a couple of weeks we will be on life support unless they drop points before then.

[Sabre]

The start was very bad. But the good news is that we received the punch, stood up, and we're currently in a winning streak.

Reina the other day talked about resignation, but I see some signs of strenght in this team. Normally when you have mistakes like the ones we made yesterday defensively it's difficult to recover from that. When you see the CB are not safe, that insecurity is soon noticed in the middle. The lines doubt to step up and press. But this team seems strong enough mentally, we've seen that yesterday (against a good team, I'd say), and we've seen that after recovering from the very bad start.

[Bad Bob]

It was a dreadful first few matches but we've seen the green shoots of recovery and we're not that far off where we were at this time last year.  Each season's different, though, and what happened in the past is no template for what will happen this season.  The key is to stay in touching distance with the leaders as we find form and get injured players fit and firing.  Winning at West Ham was vital to that agenda yesterday, as teams above us WILL drop points today.  As for the idea that we don't know how to start slow and build to a title like the Mancs, that's obviously true in the literal sense that we've never done it.  But I'm not yet prepared to throw in the towel and say we can't do the same sort of things.  We played some amazing football and showed some incredible fighting spirit last season when everyone had written us off and that tells me the players have it in them to keep believing and to march into battle with the right mindset.  Nothing precludes them from doing that even more effectively this season.  For me the far bigger worry is injury to key players because I'm not sure some of our squad players have the required quality or mental resilience to carry us through.

[Scottbot]

You have to be happy after the start we made in the first 3 games. There's no doubt there are stll problems and the performances haven't been top draw but it's such a long season and the bottom line is keeping within 5-6 points of the leaders and making a run at it as the season hots up. So long as we are sitting in a similar position going into the new year i'll be fairly happy.

[Igor Zidane]

I think once today's games are over we'll look in a better position . What we want really is two draws ,but whatever the results will be ,we'd have gained on a few of the teams above us.

[bigmick]

I think once today's games are over we'll look in a better position . What we want really is two draws ,but whatever the results will be ,we'd have gained on a few of the teams above us.

Two away wins would suit me Igor as a long term outcome.

[Igor Zidane]

I think once today's games are over we'll look in a better position . What we want really is two draws ,but whatever the results will be ,we'd have gained on a few of the teams above us.

Two away wins would suit me Igor as a long term outcome.

Yeh your right mick , looking at it long term like ,but what i was getting at was whatever happens today teams above us will drop points which is always good.

Just to go off on another tangent for a mo . If the mancs lose today ,they will have had the same start as us in theory . Do you reckon people will see it like that though or will there fans think ,well it's a better start than last season ,so that's good news. I'm sort of trying to understand the mentality of different sets of fans. If there fans think there still challenging ,do ours? If we're matching  them up til now are we still on track?

Just thoughts really.

[account deleted by request]

I think once today's games are over we'll look in a better position . What we want really is two draws ,but whatever the results will be ,we'd have gained on a few of the teams above us.

Two away wins would suit me Igor as a long term outcome.

I agree Mick, although you never know, I would expect the mancs and Chelsea to be the greater threat come the end of the season, so any points they drop have to be seen as the best possible result.

[bigmick]

I think once today's games are over we'll look in a better position . What we want really is two draws ,but whatever the results will be ,we'd have gained on a few of the teams above us.

Two away wins would suit me Igor as a long term outcome.

I agree Mick, although you never know, I would expect the mancs and Chelsea to be the greater threat come the end of the season, so any points they drop have to be seen as the best possible result.

That's how I see it S@int, but I've seen them play a couple of times this season and am going to go right out on a limb here and declare Man City as potentially top three material. I gave them more credit than most pre-season, and they aren't just going to go away I don't think.

Course now I've said that they'll get smashed 4-0 at Old Trafford  I actually think the game will be a draw though, maybe 2-2.

[JC_81]

I think once today's games are over we'll look in a better position . What we want really is two draws ,but whatever the results will be ,we'd have gained on a few of the teams above us.

Two away wins would suit me Igor as a long term outcome.

Yeh your right mick , looking at it long term like ,but what i was getting at was whatever happens today teams above us will drop points which is always good.

Just to go off on another tangent for a mo . If the mancs lose today ,they will have had the same start as us in theory . Do you reckon people will see it like that though or will there fans think ,well it's a better start than last season ,so that's good news. I'm sort of trying to understand the mentality of different sets of fans. If there fans think there still challenging ,do ours? If we're matching  them up til now are we still on track?

Just thoughts really.

Even if Mancs lose today (which I can't see) they'll still have had a better start than us imo, because they'll have had games against Arsenal, Man City and Spurs out of the way, compared to Villa and Spurs in our case, and still be on the same points as us.

Don't get me wrong, I'm pleased we've won 3 league games in a row after losing 2 of the first 3, and I'm glad that points wise we are not far off last year at this stage, but it's still a pretty poor start imo.

This year I think the best 7 teams (United, Arsenal, Chelsea, City, Spurs, Villa and ourselves) will not drop that many points against any of the other sides.  The gulf used to be between top four and the rest, but I see it developing into a top 7 with a bit of a points gap to the rest.  It will be a real fight for the top 4 this season and how those teams do against each other will be critical.  We've already lost to the worst two sides from this mini-league which imo puts us in a bad position.

In the end I think we'll comfortably finish above Spurs and Villa, but what happens ahead of those two is very hard to predict at this stage.  I can't see United or Chelsea dropping out of the top 4 as they have the strongest squads, whereas ourselves, Man City or Arsenal are both at risk of not finishing top 4, yet still with a chance of actually winning the title.  It's very early days and it will be interesting to see how it pans out.

We just need to stick it out and remain within touching distance until Aquilani/Agger/Aurelio get fit (possibly all 3 would be in our strongest XI), and until the likes of Gerrard/Torres hit top form and we get the defence sorted out (theres no way we'll defend this badly all season - it can only get better).  I'm still optimistic although I'm concerned by how strong some of our rivals are looking.