Liverpool FC Forum

[Leonmc0708]

Recently Jose Mourinho parted company with a club that he, along with Abramovich’s millions, has managed to turn from perennial also-rans into Champions of England, twice.

I hated his arrogance, and I don’t like anything about the club he represented but even with all the money in the world it is still an achievement worthy of respect. (I can say that now the jumped up Matalan wearing cu.nt has gone)

Whether he left of his own volition or whether he was pushed is a moot point, the fact seems apparent that he left because somebody other than him wanted to rule the roost.  He was the manager and somebody else wanted to manage.

In this particular instance it was the owner, and while it is the source of much amusement for everyone other than Chelsea fans to watch the house made of straw get blown away, it has to be said that however unwise it may be you can understand the Russian’s position. He paid for the dream, so he wants to make it happen … wrong attitude without questions, but you can understand how it happened.

Before I continue I want to ask of you a very direct question:

What is the point of appointing an experienced and successful manager if all you want of him is to listen to what somebody else less experienced thinks?

Moving on form Chelsea to football fans in general, and more importantly people who purport to support Liverpool FC. I zoom in further still to the particular breed of fan that tends to hang out at <a href="www.liverpoolfc.tv/whoppers" target='_blank'>www.liverpoolfc.tv/whoppers</a>

Our fans are, on the whole very knowledgeable, but none the less they are fans more accustomed to working in factories than working in football. (That is absolutely nothing against factories before somebody takes it the wrong way). Despite the gulf in experience so many are arrogant enough to think that we know better than a man that has taken a second tier team in Spain to the La Liga title, despite Real Madrid’s millions and Barcelona’s might? Exactly the same man in fact that won the Champions League with Liverpool, against all the odds it could be argued. The rotation policy has been the same from the start, and it seems that with a win everything is rosy, and with a non-win (because we haven’t lost yet or even let in a goal from open play for fu.cks sake!) then the rotation policy is once again the reason that Rafa is fuc.king up our season!!!

I’ll be honest, I don’t agree with the rotation policy. I have been extremely frustrated with the away draw at Portsmouth and even more so the home draw with Birmingham and in my opinion I would play the best 11 week in week out until fatigue or injury stopped me. That said, I haven’t spent years and years learning the football trade and qualified – I haven’t taken Valencia to La Liga glory against all the odds. I haven’t put together the most exciting Liverpool squad I’ve seen for a very long time. If I were that man, I would expect that sensible football people would give me respect.

I am a player & manager in a Sunday football team; I’ve played and watched football for around 31 years. My Sunday team won the league last year - and I enjoy the most basic, most junior involvement in the beautiful game that you can possibly enjoy. That said, I am involved beyond spectator status and that can’t be said for most football fans.

So what is it exactly that makes some people feel that they are totally justified in calling for a successful manager - who has spent his entire life watching football not as a spectator but as a student – to do their bidding as if it is the only way to proceed.

If there is anyone out there that genuinely thinks that they know best, then I would suggest that the fantasy answer to all your prayer’s is that you raise the funds however you can to take over the club, and then put forward the requisite number of millions before telling the experienced manager that you and your fantasy football playing, match watching, beer swigging, bet placing self will take over from here.

You’ll clearly explain that while you realise that you can’t hold the position of manager and chairman at the same time, you know a guy that will stand like a puppet with your corporate fist up it’s @rse and play the players, and the formation you require. It’s your toy, and you’re not sharing!

In fact may I be so bold as to suggest a puppet? Avram Grant will no doubt be looking for a corporate fist up his @rse soon, if you’re quick maybe you could get the zombie on board.

If this fantasy seem a little unlikely, then maybe you should realise that whatever we think we know about the game as spectators you can be fully assured that Rafael Benitez has forgotten more.

[Igor Zidane]

He's defo in the "in Rafa we trust brigade" that lad.

Thanx for that Leon , top post by the lad.

[AB's Red Army]

Very good points raised, but unfortunately there is a vast majority who think so otherwise.

But worry not, as soon as Benitez is gone [and he will be], those who claimed to know better will be on how the club made a great mistake letting him go.

[account deleted by request]

Good post Leon, which I agree with in principle, but not so much in practise. I'm not a master builder, but if a bricklayer fks up I can see his error. Same with Rafa, either that or just close the forum and stick up an "In Rafa we Trust"  banner.

Football is all about opinions, Rafa thinks Gerrard is a great player, another prestigous manager thinks player "x" is better, we the know nothing fans prefer player "y". Who's to say who's right or wrong. The only difference is that Rafa and the team live or dies by the decisions he makes based on his opinions, where as at worst we get abused by some t0sser for ours.

Great post but if we all believed that this forum would be dead. I don't think any of us believes we know more than Rafa about football, but most of us think we are right

[Leonmc0708]

But worry not, as soon as Benitez is gone [and he will be], those who claimed to know better will be on how the club made a great mistake letting him go.

Dont think he will before he brings it home mate, he has too much riding on this.

[roberto green]

But worry not, as soon as Benitez is gone [and he will be], those who claimed to know better will be on how the club made a great mistake letting him go.

Dont think he will before he brings it home mate, he has too much riding on this.

He will be sticking around for a long while yet, once he does go expect a mass exodus to take place with the spanish contingent and then the 5 year plan comes back into plan yet again!!!

[ConnO'var]

An excellent, well thought out post by this RedMike-86 fella.
Don't agree with it 100% of course but well thought out nonetheless.

Of course, a student of the game like Rafa, would have more insight into football than the average fan. It is his job after all. However that does not mean that the average Joe's opinion is to be disregarded as it presupposes that everyone elses opinion is of little merit because they are NOT students of the game. What about taking into consideration the opinions of a number of well respected people who have successfully plied their trade within the game? People who have lived, breathed and made a living off football..... surely what they say has some merit?

I for one (rightly or wrongly), prefer to make up my own mind based on my own experiences and whatever little knowledge I have of the game. As s@int has said, you don't need to be a master builder to know when a bricklayer's fked things up"...

In every occupation, there are masters of their craft. However, if you take some of these "masters" out of their comfort zone and place them in altogether unfamiliar surroundings, I guarantee it'll take some time for them to adapat and for some, they may never adapt. Case in point is a an engineer I know who was absolutley brilliant when he was working out of Aberdeen. So good in fact that I hired him (at an exorbitant cost, mind you) and brought him to Qatar. The poor chap just could not adapt to the culture, climate, distance from family and support group etc etc, that he just was not as effective as he normally was. In the end, he gave up and went home. Does that make him anything less than a brilliant engineer? Certainly not imo.... just someone who couldn't come to grips with his surroundings once taken out of his comfort zone. I'd imagine, the same can be applied to any profession....

I guess all I'm trying to say with all that long windedness, is that you may be fantastic at your job, BUT adaptability and knowing your limitations, play an important role in determining whether or not you can be classified as a success.

From a footballing standpoint, Sven Goran Eriksson has done well in club football. It's what he knows and what he's good at. But I don't think anyone here can argue that he royally fked up big time at international level. Essentially the same job description requiring the same footbaling knowledge but entirely different circumstance requiring different approaches.

Same can be said of managing in the premiership and the La Liga I guess.

[Ciggy]

I’ll be honest, I don’t agree with the rotation policy. I have been extremely frustrated with the away draw at Portsmouth and even more so the home draw with Birmingham and in my opinion I would play the best 11 week in week out until fatigue or injury stopped me.

This is what some of us are annoyed at though and what we have been saying yet we are called fickle.

[Ace Ventura]

I’ll be honest, I don’t agree with the rotation policy. I have been extremely frustrated with the away draw at Portsmouth and even more so the home draw with Birmingham and in my opinion I would play the best 11 week in week out until fatigue or injury stopped me.

This is what some of us are annoyed at though and what we have been saying yet we are called fickle.

Same here, and imo if we had done that after the very decent start we would of played 6 won 5 and drawn 1, that would have us on 16 points with a nice away game against Wigan coming up.
Rafa's past acheivements are not in question, whether he has learnt from past mistakes sadly is.

[Leonmc0708]

I’ll be honest, I don’t agree with the rotation policy. I have been extremely frustrated with the away draw at Portsmouth and even more so the home draw with Birmingham and in my opinion I would play the best 11 week in week out until fatigue or injury stopped me.

This is what some of us are annoyed at though and what we have been saying yet we are called fickle.

Same here, and imo if we had done that after the very decent start we would of played 6 won 5 and drawn 1, that would have us on 16 points with a nice away game against Wigan coming up.
Rafa's past acheivements are not in question, whether he has learnt from past mistakes sadly is.

Is it not the case that Rafa has learnt from his mistakes ?

Was his mistake last year not having a good enough squad to accomodate his necessary rotation policy, and NOT the rotation policy itself ? Look at the results comparrison, we are at this point in time a couple of points up on this stage last year, and with plenty of the season to go, well who knows ?

I am not suggesting I know this by the way, kind of playing devils advocate and kind of sticking up for the man.

[redtrader74]

I’ll be honest, I don’t agree with the rotation policy. I have been extremely frustrated with the away draw at Portsmouth and even more so the home draw with Birmingham and in my opinion I would play the best 11 week in week out until fatigue or injury stopped me.

This is what some of us are annoyed at though and what we have been saying yet we are called fickle.

Nah the fickle stuff is because as you have pointed out there was rotation up the Derby game, and yet after that game, and those previous, the forum was full of
'we're gonna win the league'
'we're top of the league'
'..i showed the bitters/scum the league table at work, and let them have it!'

But i don't remember seeing posts complaining about the rotation that had occurred, there was no concern, where were the anti-rotationalists when Gerrard was brought back into a side that had won so well previously without him? infact there has been a thread which advocated rotation for the Brum game, which Rafa didn't do.

BUT two draws, and apparently the league challenge is doomed, calls for sack Rafa, and the easy stick to beat Rafa with....Rotation, is brought out. An argument that shows a real lack of consideration, there couldn't be another reason, because that would take more than 15 seconds of thinking. Thats where i guess the fickle jibes come from.

Now that does not make me and others, 'rose tinted', IMHO Rafa made some mistakes in the selection of players for Portsmouth, but nonetheless a point from there is OK, they will take many decent scalps. The team for Birmingham was good enough to win, and to those that believe it wasn't, then you cannot expect to win any games if Torres is ever injured. My concern was in Rafas comments regarding Birminghams tactics, we seemed to be more concerned with them, and it should be the other way round.

The strange thing is that the players have come in for very little stick, so i guess not only did Rafa pick the wrong team and tactics, but  he also managed to create very little, not dribble very well and pass poorly.

[Ciggy]

calls for sack Rafa,

The only ones calling for Rafa's head are glory hunting b@stards who jumped on the band wagon post May 2005.

[Ace Ventura]

I’ll be honest, I don’t agree with the rotation policy. I have been extremely frustrated with the away draw at Portsmouth and even more so the home draw with Birmingham and in my opinion I would play the best 11 week in week out until fatigue or injury stopped me.

This is what some of us are annoyed at though and what we have been saying yet we are called fickle.

Nah the fickle stuff is because as you have pointed out there was rotation up the Derby game, and yet after that game, and those previous, the forum was full of
'we're gonna win the league'
'we're top of the league'
'..i showed the bitters/scum the league table at work, and let them have it!'

But i don't remember seeing posts complaining about the rotation that had occurred, there was no concern, where were the anti-rotationalists when Gerrard was brought back into a side that had won so well previously without him? infact there has been a thread which advocated rotation for the Brum game, which Rafa didn't do.

BUT two draws, and apparently the league challenge is doomed, calls for sack Rafa, and the easy stick to beat Rafa with....Rotation, is brought out. An argument that shows a real lack of consideration, there couldn't be another reason, because that would take more than 15 seconds of thinking. Thats where i guess the fickle jibes come from.

Now that does not make me and others, 'rose tinted', IMHO Rafa made some mistakes in the selection of players for Portsmouth, but nonetheless a point from there is OK, they will take many decent scalps. The team for Birmingham was good enough to win, and to those that believe it wasn't, then you cannot expect to win any games if Torres is ever injured. My concern was in Rafas comments regarding Birminghams tactics, we seemed to be more concerned with them, and it should be the other way round.

The strange thing is that the players have come in for very little stick, so i guess not only did Rafa pick the wrong team and tactics, but  he also managed to create very little, not dribble very well and pass poorly.

Who has said sack the manager or that we wont win the league ?

I havent read anyone say that on here.

What i have said consistently is that we will be there or thereabouts as we have a great squad, but we could be better, there are too many people that think Rafa doesnt make mistakes, too many people that make excuses and defend him blindly.
I am not someone who would agree with calling for his head (he has done a great job) i also think fans that boo at the match should not be there.
But on an internet forum or having a bevvy with me mates...discussing the manager i feel that its only fair that we speak about his mistakes as well, because however anyone wants to dress it up since the international break he has made mistakes.

[Leonmc0708]

I’ll be honest, I don’t agree with the rotation policy. I have been extremely frustrated with the away draw at Portsmouth and even more so the home draw with Birmingham and in my opinion I would play the best 11 week in week out until fatigue or injury stopped me.

This is what some of us are annoyed at though and what we have been saying yet we are called fickle.

Nah the fickle stuff is because as you have pointed out there was rotation up the Derby game, and yet after that game, and those previous, the forum was full of
'we're gonna win the league'
'we're top of the league'
'..i showed the bitters/scum the league table at work, and let them have it!'

But i don't remember seeing posts complaining about the rotation that had occurred, there was no concern, where were the anti-rotationalists when Gerrard was brought back into a side that had won so well previously without him? infact there has been a thread which advocated rotation for the Brum game, which Rafa didn't do.

BUT two draws, and apparently the league challenge is doomed, calls for sack Rafa, and the easy stick to beat Rafa with....Rotation, is brought out. An argument that shows a real lack of consideration, there couldn't be another reason, because that would take more than 15 seconds of thinking. Thats where i guess the fickle jibes come from.

Now that does not make me and others, 'rose tinted', IMHO Rafa made some mistakes in the selection of players for Portsmouth, but nonetheless a point from there is OK, they will take many decent scalps. The team for Birmingham was good enough to win, and to those that believe it wasn't, then you cannot expect to win any games if Torres is ever injured. My concern was in Rafas comments regarding Birminghams tactics, we seemed to be more concerned with them, and it should be the other way round.

The strange thing is that the players have come in for very little stick, so i guess not only did Rafa pick the wrong team and tactics, but  he also managed to create very little, not dribble very well and pass poorly.

Who has said sack the manager or that we wont win the league ?

I havent read anyone say that on here.

What i have said consistently is that we will be there or thereabouts as we have a great squad, but we could be better, there are too many people that think Rafa doesnt make mistakes, too many people that make excuses and defend him blindly.
I am not someone who would agree with calling for his head (he has done a great job) i also think fans that boo at the match should not be there.
But on an internet forum or having a bevvy with me mates...discussing the manager i feel that its only fair that we speak about his mistakes as well, because however anyone wants to dress it up since the international break he has made mistakes.

Its quite a big asumption, that being (I presume) that Garrard and Torres starting against Birmingham and Portsmouth would have definitely equalled 6 points and 2 wins from those games.

[66-1112520797]

Its quite a big asumption, that being (I presume) that Garrard and Torres starting against Birmingham and Portsmouth would have definitely equalled 6 points and 2 wins from those games.

Well I wouldnt assume that, but I would assume it that playing Gerrard and Torres both from the start in both games would of given us a much better chance of getting 6 poinrs.