Liverpool FC Forum

[Ace Ventura]

I'll say again - the idiocy on this board is quite baffling at times.

To think that half of the gimps on here are actually employed by some poor sap to work in an office is even worse.

Dear oh dear.

What do you mean ?

Not sure who you are refering to or what points that are baffling you.

[Sabre]

Ace Ventura mate answering your last question, I understand the fustration. I was very dissapointed too, but because we did a very bad game.

You lot are working under one hypothesis. It's my hunch that you think that the difference in terms of quality between Torres and the other strikers is <-------------------------------------------> this big.

If you work with that assumption, it's normal to be angry if Torres doesn't play.

But  Rafa sees IMHO the difference as <----> this big. He sees Torres as a pacy player, dribbler, but not the best player to play between the lines.

So in his view, he's not gambling just selecting what he thinks it suits best. If Torres was that  good, he would have made a difference in 30 minutes. He didn't. The chance he had in Oporto after a great Gerrard pass was one to score. He didn't, because his left foot is not world class precisely. Nice to watch the overhead yesterday. Nice to watch but no goal. 30 minutes + 30 minutes is 60 minutes without a goal, and in the last minutes the oppo is more tired.

I know this opinion on Torres seems controversial, because he has played well indeed, and the goal against Chelsea was impressive. Of course it was. But, if he was THAT good Spain wouldn't have been eliminated in the last world cup so soon, I tell you.

For me Torres is the paciest, better dribbler, and better skilled striker of the squad. He's not the best finishing, and he's not the best protecting the ball backwards to the keeper, and he's not the strongest striker. He's not a great player between lines like LG neither. He might be the best striker of the squad, I agree, but not by <------------------------------------> this distance but <----> this one.

I might be wrong about Torres quality but I don't think Rafa gambles, and he stuck to his guns: he said why he played Voronin and Kuyt (I'd preffer Crouch rather than Voronin), he said that we created more danger in the first half than in the second (with Torres in the pitch) and he even said that Torres did not move behind the defenders once. So Rafa might be wrong, but not gambling.

Don't get me wrong. I like Torres. And he improves the squad. And I wish him the best. But I've been here before. I remember when I joined this board the absolutely EXAGERATED praises Alonso received. Then the praises became criticism, and people said that the player was not as good as he used to be (when actually he has more experience).

I think that in one year the praises will not be as big as now. I'll defend him then, now he doesn't need it.

[Lando_Griffin]

Well - how can a man who has won virtually everything in the game not understand how to win matches?

If people feel the need to question Rafa's intelligence, then that's their choice.

But it just shows a total lack of brainpower on their part, considering the fact he studied in England and Italy, and is married to a doctor of law.

Then we can also point to his trophy haul:

UEFA Champions' League Winner, 2005, runner up, 2007.

UEFA Cup Winner, 2004.

Champion of Spain: 2002, 2004.

FA Cup Winner, 2006.

European Supercup Winner, 2005.

World Club Championship finalist, 2005.

Carling Cup Finalist, 2005.

All inside 5 years.

Hmmm....

Not REALLY the actions and achievements of an idiot...

[dawson99]

so lando, u say we're ONLY a cup team?

(playing devils advocate now)

[Ace Ventura]

I take on board what you are saying Sabre but its not that i am over hyping Torres or his ability.
More the impact on the game he would have.
Voronin Kuyt and Crouch while all having different qualities dont offer any threat what so ever with a ball in behind or over the top. That in my opinion gives opposing defenders the opportunity to defend far further up the pitch making the midfield crowded and making it far more difficult then for the likes of Gerrard Babel and Pennant to get the ball in areas that they actually have a bit of time and space.
One player doesnt make a team, but he can massivley affect the options when not just attacking but also defending.
I think it may have been bigmick that touched on something about the defenders options when we pick up posession. With Torres even a clearance can be dangerous to the opposition, like we seen away to Portsmouth when he made something out of nothing wide left nearly resulting in a goal for Voronin.
I know he will frustrate us with poor decision making and finishing at times but i would start him in nearly every game for thr points i've made above....the overall impact he has on the game itself.

[Lando_Griffin]

Not at all - but you have to look at the fact that we've been competing against the two richest clubs in the World, and have actually beaten Sh*tski to the Euro cup final twice.

Oh - not forgetting our Community Shield win of 2006, either...

[dawson99]

i agree lando, we ARE good enough to win the premiership, we've shown it with the one offs against the best in europe, but what the frick keeps going wrong when we play smaller teams? are we too arrogant to try harder, cant we get ourselves 'up for it' against teams like the brums?

[Ciggy]

but you have to look at the fact that we've been competing against the two richest clubs in the World,

And Rafa has said in the past we cant compete with them in the transfer market.
So what baffles me is why rest our most expensive asset behind Gerrard?

Man U play Birmingham next week you can bet your life, Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez and Saha will all be playing.

Look Lando no one is disputing Rafa's achievements but he gets things wrong through silly mistakes, so he leaves himself open to critism with this constant rotation lark.

42 changes to the team already and the season has only just begun.
Even the "In Rafa We Trust brigade" can see this is far to much.

The opening game v Villa
6 changes for Toulouse.
then
6 changes for Chelsea
then
4 changes for Sunderland
then
7 changes for Toulouse (home)
then
5 changes for Derby
then
5 changes for Portsmouth
then
6 changes for Porto
then
3 changes for Birmingham.

We arnt asking for the world just play our best players week in week out in the prem there is a time and a place for dropping and rotating players but not just for the sake of it.

If Liverpool dont have a go at the title then they only have themselves to blame.

[AB's Red Army]

No offense, and you know that I have nothing against you or your views. But I can not believe that some of you actually are certain that he does it without a logical reason.

Oh and that list of games in where we've made changes, can be manipulated both ways to suit either argument.

[stmichael]

Due to the fact that we started the season so well, it would seem that the players have obviously been affected by Pakos departure.

Its already been posted that Gerrard started this season like it was going to be his best yet but now he is struggling to string two passes together.

[Ace Ventura]

AB i agree that Rafa will have logical reasons for rotation or resting players, but thats not say i agree with his logic.
I wouldnt for one minute think he would just think lets go with Crouch and Kuyt today, they might not be happy lets give them a game here then rest them next week. He obviously has his reasons, he obviously sees the players in training throughout the week, he also knows the levels of fitness and analyses the opposition in far more detail than we would.
But still i think that unless a player is absolutely f'cked fitness wise which none of ours should be at this point then play them.
Like ciggy has said united will play there match winners virtually every game, we have left one of ours (and we dont have many) out two league games running...and just after he scored two against Derby and looked really sharp and full of confidence. I cant see how anyone can defend that to be honest.

Lando, nobody is arguing with what Rafa has won he has won nearly every competition he has been in, but thats irrelevant to now, he has shown he has the managerial skills to win la liga, the champions league, Uefa cup and so on, but we want to kick on, we want the english title back, and i am having serious reservations that Rafa realises that he cant leave major players out and get results. He may get some, but to win the league you need consistency...and it has showed that by changing players that often it is far more difficult to be consistent.
The fact that we have a very very good squad means that we will come close....imo DESPITE our manager giving the opposition every chance to run us close.

[Geo]

i agree lando, we ARE good enough to win the premiership, we've shown it with the one offs against the best in europe, but what the frick keeps going wrong when we play smaller teams? are we too arrogant to try harder, cant we get ourselves 'up for it' against teams like the brums?

i agree dawson, i dont know if its rafas tactics or lack of drive in the players but it just seems that whenever it looks like we may be starting to string a few wins together we face a smaller, well organized and determined and come unstuck.

ive stopped making excuses to myself for rafas rotation policy. At the end of the day the blame must come to rafa. we have bought players who are supposed to come on and turn a game with a piece of skill or flair.

For me a big suprise was no crouch against brum, i think he would of been quite useful off the bench. I think in the prem where the pace is alot quicker, partnerships and familiarity between players is vital, and this can only be achieved by players playing consistently with eachother.

[Lando_Griffin]

i agree lando, we ARE good enough to win the premiership, we've shown it with the one offs against the best in europe, but what the frick keeps going wrong when we play smaller teams? are we too arrogant to try harder, cant we get ourselves 'up for it' against teams like the brums?

It is a lack of creativity and guile in the midfield area. An Aimar, or a Luis Garcia, for instance.

If I am allowed to compare teams (The Gestapo on here seem to deem this a travesty), let's look at the champs of the last few seasons:

The scum:

Rooney, Scholes, Giggs, Gayboy, and now Tevez. All create as well as score goals.

Sh*tski:

Fat Frank, Robben, J. Cole, Duff, Dogbreath, Ballack, Essien. All create and/or score goals.

Arsenal:

Henry, Pires, Viera, Fabregas, Van Persie, Bergkamp. Same as above.

Us:

Gerrard, Torres, erm...erm...

THAT's the reason we struggle against the W*nk sides who play for a 0-0 - our lack of creative goalscorers. If our individuals aren't performing, the whole team suffers. Alonso is the only other player worth mentioning, but as he plays dm, he can't really be considered a goal threat.

WHat we need is for Benayoun, Pennant, Babel and one or two others to start getting in amongst the goals, and actually create something, instead of showing promise but no end product.

A game like Saturday's was f*cking MADE for Benayoun, but for religious reasons, he wouldn't play.

Well f*ck religion - this is football. This exists - Allah, or whoever it is Yossi believes in - doesn't.

Still - we can always go out in January and sign Pablo Aimar...

[Ace Ventura]

So Lando in your opinion AT THIS MOMENT AND TIME we have two players that can create and score goals in Gerrard and Torres, and then we leave one of them on the bench two league games running.
Does that make sense ?

[Lando_Griffin]

So Lando in your opinion AT THIS MOMENT AND TIME we have two players that can create and score goals in Gerrard and Torres, and then we leave one of them on the bench two league games running.
Does that make sense ?

I was actually implying that the other players need to step up the plate and be counted. Babel - f*cking brilliant player for Holland, as Ciggy has pointed out. But he's not doing the business here.

Pennant - the goal against Sh*tski shows he has the ability score goals - he just isn't doing it.

Yossi - needs to get his act together.


My point being that the players are there, but they're just not doing the job they were bought for atm.

And fwiw, I think Torres would have drawn a blank on Sat, as he seems to struggle against deep-lying teams.