Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

I don't think Torres always needs space to be effective, that would be disrespectful to his ability, but he's at his most effective when there is space to exploit.

Yes well I think you can pretty much say that about any striker anywhere in the World mate to be honest. They pretty much all look better when they've got space to operate in in my experience anyway.

The Chelsea goal was indeed from a counter attack, and as the likes of Birmingham don't do too much of that it is reasonable to assume that Torres would have less chance of manoevreing a situation where he is one on one with their centreback so fair enough.

I can't help thinking though that we are debating something which taken literally is nonsense. I know I annoy people sometimes with my flippant attitude but I have trouble taking seriously the notion that you don't play strikers who have pace against lowly teams because they are more effective when the opposition defends high up. If we follow this mantra to its enth degree, Torres will play about six games at Home all season. Rafa is indeed a clever man, and quite possibly a tactical genius and all that, but just occasionally, (and I don't know whether he does it for a laugh, because he can't speak perfect English and it gets lost in translation, or he just gets a bit bored or something) he talks utter b0ll0cks. When he does, we all spend weeks debating and disecting his every word.

He's probably forgotten what he said and why he said it now, just like he din't know that Crouch and Torres hadn't actually started together (or perhaps he was taking the p!ss as someone will nodoubt claim he was). I like him, but I do think that some on here overdo the guru bit sometimes. Nobody on this earth is immune from talking b0ll0cks (and God knows I should know), and rafa is no different.

[LFC2007]

I don't think Torres always needs space to be effective, that would be disrespectful to his ability, but he's at his most effective when there is space to exploit.

Yes well I think you can pretty much say that about any striker anywhere in the World mate to be honest. They pretty much all look better when they've got space to operate in in my experience anyway.

The Chelsea goal was indeed from a counter attack, and as the likes of Birmingham don't do too much of that it is reasonable to assume that Torres would have less chance of manoevreing a situation where he is one on one with their centreback so fair enough.

I can't help thinking though that we are debating something which taken literally is nonsense. I know I annoy people sometimes with my flippant attitude but I have trouble taking seriously the notion that you don't play strikers who have pace against lowly teams because they are more effective when the opposition defends high up. If we follow this mantra to its enth degree, Torres will play about six games at Home all season. Rafa is indeed a clever man, and quite possibly a tactical genius and all that, but just occasionally, (and I don't know whether he does it for a laugh, because he can't speak perfect English and it gets lost in translation, or he just gets a bit bored or something) he talks utter b0ll0cks. When he does, we all spend weeks debating and disecting his every word.

He's probably forgotten what he said and why he said it now, just like he din't know that Crouch and Torres hadn't actually started together (or perhaps he was taking the p!ss as someone will nodoubt claim he was). I like him, but I do think that some on here overdo the guru bit sometimes. Nobody on this earth is immune from talking b0ll0cks (and God knows I should know), and rafa is no different.

Put a player who does not possess pace, acceleration and guile in the position Torres was in vs Chelsea, I think it would be very unlikely that they would be able to convert the chance.

It's not the case that every striker is most effective when there is space to run into, your typical goal poacher will operate on very little space. Players with space to  run into often choke, or have a heavy touch. Torres has the touch, pace and ability to use space effectively.

Maybe this is getting lost in translation, I am referring to space in behind defenders, in particular - the channels between the full backs and centre backs. I don't mean 'space' generally speaking, I am referring in context to the Chelsea goal.

I think you have assumed much of the rest of your post.

I am not saying, and nor is anyone else (to my knowledge) that Torres should only play in matches where there is likely to be space in behind the defenders with which to exploit. I am saying that the Chelsea example is not applicable in St Mike's post, if anything, the second half demonstrated that when teams sit deep we lack general creativity even WITH Torres in the line-up. Suffice to say, Chelsea are far better than the Brum's.

[stmichael]

Rafa is indeed a clever man, and quite possibly a tactical genius and all that, but just occasionally, (and I don't know whether he does it for a laugh, because he can't speak perfect English and it gets lost in translation, or he just gets a bit bored or something) he talks utter b0ll0cks. When he does, we all spend weeks debating and disecting his every word.

Yeah, I mean last week he was whinging about Gerrard being knackered after playing twice for England recently and then he brings him on for 15 minutes in a Carling Cup game.

Sort it out Rafa. 

[grayghost]

We need points on the board before we start resting players we could still have a 100% record if we would have played are best 11 in thouse 2 games except for chelsie that is.

[username]

stupid rafa and his rotation, cant decide the team for fantasy rafa, or to put torres as my fantasy football captain

[AB's Red Army]

Things are only going to get tougher after this upcoming game.

v Tottenham [H]
v Everton [A] [early kick off after international break, expect a loss]
v Arsenal [H]
v Blackburn [A]

[Sabre]

Space. The final frontier.

I'll try to explain what it means (IMHO) that he needs space.



If the guy in the right is the centre back and the receiver is Torres, Torres is less comfortable than Owen would be in that situation. He needs a couple of touches to the ball to turn and face, he needs (normally) more diameter (more space) than Owen needed. Torres is not great protecting the ball neither.

Torres is most dangerous when he's facing a last defender while running. The defenders tend to have their bodies turned 45 degrees, trying to corner the player to a wing, or trying to invite them to dribble for the side of their bad foot. The Chelsea Israeli defender did that for instance, but Torres had the space to go to the other side, change foot and scored. SWP wasn't there to make a help to his team mate. The other CB was far, Torres had space. 

When running Torres is almost unstoppable. But he needs the space to put that pace working. He's not as dangerous when after the first touch, there's a holding mid helping the CB because the lines are packed or there's another defender waiting. Luis Garcia, Romario were good at this. Owen aswell (what a striker). Torres not that much.

Facing last defenders or CB is not easy in a game like Birmingham. In those games you need to know playing backwards to the goal, and you need a good finisher. Not that I'm implying Torres is useless on this, it's just that it's not his forte. Against a deep defence, a deep inner pass will most likely end for the keeper unless it's very accurate, especially if  Reina who reads well those passes. In Spain Torres has been without scoring for 7 games until the last one. Not a surprise considering most of the qualifying teams put 10 men behind the ball against us. That kind of games do not suit Torres (normally, he can do a hat trick, I'm talking generally).

With a more advanced defence, an inner pass with Torres is more deadly, like yesterday.

I don't know if that made sense at all. 

[AB's Red Army]

It does make sense and if you know this about Torres, then Benitez knows even more ins and outs of his game.

Why the fucking hell do people fail to comprehend this?

[dawson99]

some poeple think there is  alittle more to his game. hes a lot mroe dangerous and pulls away a lot of defenders who are worried about him. plus, if this is the only way we ever play him within 5 games everyone on earth would know how to play him and hed be absoltuely useless

[Wilhelmsson]

It does make sense and if you know this about Torres, then Benitez knows even more ins and outs of his game.

Why the fucking hell do people fail to comprehend this?

Well if that is the case, the Admin of all Liverpool forums had best delete their boards as there is little to talk about. No one is saying Rafa doesn’t know more than fans about such issues. It’s about opinions and not everyone is going to share the same opinion as Rafa. 

Rafa is in a job which is constantly under scrutiny from all corners and that is how it should be IMO. The In Rafa We Trust and Will Never Criticise Brigade are just as bad as those who are overly critical of him.

[LFC2007]

Rafa is in a job which is constantly under scrutiny from all corners and that is how it should be IMO. The In Rafa We Trust and Will Never Criticise Brigade are just as bad as those who are overly critical of him.

There is nobody on this forum who refuses to criticise Benitez to my knowledge, unless you can name me someone.

[Wilhelmsson]

There is nobody on this forum who refuses to criticise Benitez to my knowledge, unless you can name me someone.

I won’t name who I think these people are, as I do not want to start a war of words and one that I cannot finish, so I’ll stay quiet. There are two small contingents on this forum. There are those who find it highly difficult to criticise Rafa and those who find it difficult not to criticise Benitez.

You’re quite quick on the old, quote and post button(s), do you belong in those who find it difficult to criticise Benitez camp?

[LFC2007]

There is nobody on this forum who refuses to criticise Benitez to my knowledge, unless you can name me someone.

I won’t name who I think these people are, as I do not want to start a war of words and one that I cannot finish, so I’ll stay quiet. There are two small contingents on this forum. There are those who find it highly difficult to criticise Rafa and those who find it difficult not to criticise Benitez.

You’re quite quick on the old, quote and post button(s), do you belong in those who find it difficult to criticise Benitez camp?

Well, if it's a matter of opinions - as you rightly say - then who are you to judge who is over critical, and who finds it difficult to criticise him?

Here's a different spin on it, there are those who choose to show perspective in their views and there are those who overreact and insult Rafa personally.

It's a fact that people over react - the evidence being the numerous personal insults that were posted after the Birmingham match, it's not a fact that people refuse to criticise Rafa.

[Sabre]

You want names LFC2007? I'm one of them. He said so the other day  But I won't start a fight because of that.

[account deleted by request]

You want names? LFC2007? I'm one of them. He said so the other day  But I won't start a fight because of that.

You should have used the QUOTE from the film a few good men Sabre, " You want the truth, you can't handle the truth"