Liverpool FC Forum

[woof woof !]

so is the problem with resting players that people want it to be done as token gestures to "show where our priorities lie" ?

Not sure what you mean mate

I mean that had Rafa played Torres and Gerrard in both Premiership games and we still had the same results, would the fact that Rafa played what people perceive to be "the best team" meant that we would be happy ?

Happier, yes definately.

Obviously if we had still drawn then it would of been a bit more of a worry...and left me with f'ck all to whinge about for 4 days 

      

Missed this yesterday , first laugh of the morning , thanks Ace. 

[cpc4eva]

Err, you find that statement surprising? It's no different than anything else he's said in the past in regards to players.

If they perform and train up to his standards, he will play. If he's injured and not doing those things, he may not play.

It's quite simple to comprehend really.

exactly its no different than in the past and if you keep doing what you've always done you will keep getting the same results....

we used to put fear into the opposition.... complete fear and havnt done this for seems like eons now

comments like this dont put fear into the opposition.... wigan are probably thinking geee we've got a real chance this week against those reds cause they cant make up their mind wether they are going to play their best players or not...

if the comment was something like Torres and Gerrard will be playing full 90 minutes against wigan then wigan would be feeling alot different.... more uncertain about themselves....

[bigmick]

FWIW, Birmingham are the only team that will defend that deep at Anfield this season.

Lots of interesting points came out of the discussions over the last couple of days, none more so than this one. Do you literally mean that nobody will defend this deep Lando, or in a similar fashion, or is there another nuance to the comment which I'm missing. I first read the comment this morning (NZ time) and I couldn't really fathom it at the time. I've just been thinking about it in the car on the way home and you've still got me mate.

The idea that all that pace gives you is the ability to "run in behind" to quote Rafa is also a new one on me. Pace just enables you to do things quicker, whether it is reacting to a ball ricocheting around in the box, running onto a through bal, jinking away from a marker, making yourself half a yard to get a shot away or whatever.

I see Rushie says he understood it from a tactical point of view. Well he's a better man than me. He should know of course, he had a fair old turn of foot and was pretty effective against all teams whether they dended deep or high up. Curiously if my memory serves, he didn't do so well against Man Utd and they did defend high up so there you go.

No, I think Rafa left Torres out against Birmingham for an entirely different reason. I think he left him out because as Ivor the Injun pointed out he was poor at Porto, and because he thought he could get away with it. On both counts it was a fair enough decision for me. It was just uunfortunate that the previous silliness at Pompey had derailed us from a confidence point of view, so even with a team which was easily adequate we didn't come through. Hopefully now, we'll play a decent team against Wigna and get ourselves a little momentum again.

I don't buy the stuff about running in behind, Birmingham defending too deep for Torres to be effective, the other strikers being better at playing between the lines though. I don't buy it because it is utter b0ll0cks.

[112-1077774096]

i watched macmahon last night on the TV out here, he is a pundit on espn, and he went to england at the weekend for the liverpool game and the man utd game, he went with the host who is a sports journalist called john dykes.

personally i like watching macmahon, he says it like it is, of course he is an old red but he pulls no punches. he said he was amazed when he saw torres wasn't playing, as were the old pros around him like rush and aldridge. he is definitely in the 'rotation is f*cking up the team' camp and good on him for speaking up about it.

on a side note he saw van basten at the man utd game on the sunday and they were staying in the same hotel, he had a chat with him and van basten appears set for chelsea, there were no direct comments from van basten about it but a few of hints. (but of course he could have just been watching van der sar)

i wonder if dawson has the odds on this

[dawson99]

no ones betting on it at the moment, yet grant is faves to be next manager to leave the premiership

[112-1077774096]

yeah i think grant is a stop gap mate, especially without his coaching badges

[Sabre]

The idea that all that pace gives you is the ability to "run in behind" to quote Rafa is also a new one on me. Pace just enables you to do things quicker, whether it is reacting to a ball ricocheting around in the box, running onto a through bal, jinking away from a marker, making yourself half a yard to get a shot away or whatever.

I just write to say that you're correct on that.

Rafa said Torres needs space to make harm, and he said it after the match again. Here that is said of other pacy players like Nihat aswell, but... it doesn't mean all pacy players will need spaces to make harm, if you see what I mean

If you don't, we'll talk about it in two months, I don't want to be misinterpreted as anti-torres when I actually like a lot the lad. 

From the last words of Rafa, it seems pretty clear that he really rates the other strikers aswell. Rafa tends to think in Spanish when he says things at translates literally. The "If you say to me that Torres is better" remark is not one inviting the people to say Torres is better and obbey, but one saying "do your job (reporting) and I'll do mine (taking decissions)". Quite defiant and a bit of tension there to be honest, but the truth is, that everyone in merseyside and every journo seems to be telling him what to pick.

[112-1077774096]

i think torres can make his own space to be fair, i think its wrong to say he needs space as in that case he will be easy to mark all season. he turn of pace gets space for himself

[account deleted by request]

FWIW, Birmingham are the only team that will defend that deep at Anfield this season.

Lots of interesting points came out of the discussions over the last couple of days, none more so than this one. Do you literally mean that nobody will defend this deep Lando, or in a similar fashion, or is there another nuance to the comment which I'm missing. I first read the comment this morning (NZ time) and I couldn't really fathom it at the time. I've just been thinking about it in the car on the way home and you've still got me mate.

Maybe Lando means the only team with a half decent defence? As I can't see the likes of Sunderlands defense moving much more than a foot away from their penalty box after the way Torres left them for dead last time.

Blackburn, Bolton, Wigan, Portsmouth etc etc I think they will all come prepared to defend in depth and unfortunately due to Birminghams success (at keeping us out) we need to score an early goal or suffer a few difficult afternoons.

Not many teams will want to get a good hiding like Derby did, so I think we will find most teams will have one eye on how many defenders they can keep between our players and their goal.

Even the Mancs with all their attacking prowess and luck of the damned, struggle against determined deep defences.

[stmichael]

Rafa said Torres needs space to make harm, and he said it after the match again.

You see this is what I don't get.

Rafa said he didn't play Torres against Brum as they would defend really deep and not allow any space in behind. The guy's so good that he makes his own space during the games anyway.

We can discuss Rafa`s decision all night long...but the important thing from last night is that Torres really learned alot about the english game. His mentality was tested by an useless ref and sh#thouse defenders. He passed the test in the best possible way. Just stand up walk away and tear them apart.

Brilliant Fernando. 

[bigmick]

Rafa said he didn't play Torres against Brum as they would defend really deep and not allow any space in behind.

Maybe it's just the case that the whole thing got lost in translation. If Rafa or anybody else were to say that Torres would be at his MOST effective against a team who defends up on the half way line then it would be hard to argue with that. With his pace and skill it would be a very brave manager indeed who sends his team out to defend against Torres high up. This is the reason I was interested as to why Lando thinks Birmingham defended deeper than anybody else will at Anfield this season. I'd actually be very surprised if anybody at all defended much further up, and many will defend a la Birmingham.

Taken in its literal sense of course, it's hard to comprehend what the manager is thinking with regards to not playing Torres if indeed that was the reason for his omission (which I don't think it was as I said earlier). Torres is by no means the first or last striker who is blessed with pace and who will therefore find defences defending deeper against him. Owen in particular changed the way teams set up against us almost single handedly and had to develop his game to cope with it. It really would be extreme naievety on the part of any coach to expect the opposition to set up defensively in a way which suit your star striker. Just like we tried not to leave much room in behind when Henri was at Arsenal, I would expect teams to defend much deeper if Torres is in the team than they would if he isn't.

No to me it's pretty straightforward. Torres was dropped/rested because he didn't play well in midweek, and because rafa thought he could get away with giving him a week off. I must confess at the time I agreed with the second part and still can't believe the line up we sent out was quite so inept, even allowing for the lack of confidence.

Had we not over-rotated the previous week at Pompey and disrupted our equilebrium, no doubt we would have got away with it. Like I always say though, in football all things are interconnected. Had somebody told you before the season started that Torres and Gerrard would play in the first round (which we were involved in) of the Carling Cup, on a Tuesday night, Away to Reading you'd have thought they had gone mad. As it is though, we needed a result and our confidence boosting so Rafa had to play a decent team. Had we have seen off Pompey and Birmingham, I have absolutely no doubts whatsoever that Torres and Gerrard wouldn't have even been on the bus, never mind playing.

It just goes to show that one game leads into another and they can't be taken in complete isolation. Hopefully now we can put a dodgy little week behind us by putting out a strong team which will absolutely unquestionably include Torres, and beating Wigan. It also demonstrates in my opinion anyway that you've got to be careful with the tinkering. All our problems came from one bout of silliness Away to Pompey. The selections at Porto and at home to Birmingham were sensible enough for my taste without a problem, but just that one daft episode eroded our momentum. Hopefully once we get going again, we'll let the opposition try and knock us off course a bit more rather than being prepared to do it ourselves.

[stmichael]

Fair enough Mick.

I'm just saying that the Chelsea goal for example proves he doesnt need space behind to be effective. I am sure Rafa doesnt believe what he said and was probably trying to build up the other strikers but it does make him look a bit stupid.

[LFC2007]

Fair enough Mick.

I'm just saying that the Chelsea goal for example proves he doesnt need space behind to be effective.

The Torres goal against Chelsea was a counter attack and Torres had space to run into. He crafted the opportunity with his pace and skill, however, once Chelsea equalised they sat very deep and our attack was completely nulified.

I don't think Torres always needs space to be effective, that would be disrespectful to his ability, but he's at his most effective when there is space to exploit in the channels and he has the opportunity to run at defenders.

[112-1077774096]

well surely all players are more effective when they have space so it a bit of a pointless comment to be fair.

but i don't think that torres needs space to be effective, i think he is more than capable of making his own space

[LFC2007]

well surely all players are more effective when they have space so it a bit of a pointless comment to be fair.

Sure, especially those without the pace to exploit it.