Liverpool FC Forum

[god_bless_john_houlding]

He lost me when he started quoting his statistics alls i know is a win is 3 points and lose zilch i dont go in for all these statistics and figures maybe its because i dont understand them

god help you when a win changed from two points to three then nanny 

How come i keep getting tormented here about my state of mind . Yes you an all Kharhaz  im a clever b.astard i just dont like numbers

If this carrys on tormenting me i might just have to report yous for bias against the elderly

I'll get a card just for you suggesting to report, thanks a lot 

[taff]

I used to enjoy reading him but lately he has lost the plot. Im up for some optimism but this is taking it too far, for heavens sake we would be better in two legged games well the league is not that and if it was then teams would adjust accordingly.  I am actually amazed at this argument

If we had won more games and beaten Barnsley we would be up for the treble and if I had won the lottery I would be going to the finals and staying in the best hotels, and if won more money I would buy the club and make Tomkins manager, smoke some incredible weed and watch the good times roll

[Kharhaz]

He lost me when he started quoting his statistics alls i know is a win is 3 points and lose zilch i dont go in for all these statistics and figures maybe its because i dont understand them

god help you when a win changed from two points to three then nanny 

How come i keep getting tormented here about my state of mind . Yes you an all Kharhaz  im a clever b.astard i just dont like numbers

If this carrys on tormenting me i might just have to report yous for bias against the elderly

No im with you on this one, im the same im rubbish with numbers, so imagine when I see one of Owzats posts that is almost always full of numbers, I just think forget it ! Wheres the wankworld thread?

[Kharhaz]

has tomkins lost it? more to the point did he have it to lose it?

I can think of worse opinions to have.....

[The Manhattan Project]

We draw too many league games.


That's the only statistic that matters.

That's what taken us out of the title picture.

[RedRoots]

I'm glad most of you agree with me, i have friends who follow united and we argue alot over football as you do, but if i was ever to put forward such ridiculous claims such as the we've won all our games on aggregate one i'd be laughed out of the pub.

[Owzat]

Champions League cannot be compared with the Premiership, you don't get "six points" for an aggregate win, you go through. Would we have won the league by this "six points for an aggregate win suggestion? Well it's a theory that can be proven or disproven so I 'll take the 2005/6 season where we picked up our highest points aggregate under Rafa and compare with the teams that finished above us (as many as necessary)

2005/6 season - six points for aggregate win

LIVERPOOL (3rd)

WW : 10
WD : 3
WL  : 2 (won both on GD/away goals)
DD : 1 (won on away goals)
DL : 2
LL : 1

So I assume it is six points for any combination that would see us through in CL and zilch for any that don't. That would give us 16 x 6 = 96 points

CHELSEA (1st)

WW : 10
WD : 4
WL  : 5 (won three on aggregate/GD and lost two, one on away goals to FULHAM)
DD : 0
DL : 0
LL : 0

So Chelsea would have picked up SEVENTEEN aggregate wins and therefore beaten us, it's nice in THEORY to say we'd win under a convaluted scoring system, but Tomkins should have tested it before coming out with it. Chelsea won 17 of their 19 head to heads on aggregate in 2005/6, Liverpool won only 16. We might have been closer, but as with the traditional points system we simply weren't close enough.

The problem is we drop too many points at home and way too many away from home. You might be interested to know that our defeats home and away were to the mancs, Chelsea scored an aggregate goals win (W3-0, L0-1) against them.

That system would be daft anyway, not to mention the fact that we'd only be three points closer than we actually finished.

[Igor Zidane]

I like tomkins , he's very happy clappy like my goodself ,but reading that artical is like reading one of GBJH 's posts . Completely unfathomable.

[Toffeehater]

west ham have a player call tomkins any realtion to this tw@t?

[Sabre]

Not everything Tomkins writes as of late to defend Liverpool is bóllocks.

But to be honest I cannot understand well the point he's making this article. I think it's too happy clappy even for me.

[The_Rock]

Another thomkins' article WTF ? This just nails it. He merely recycles his stats and comes up with a different perspective of the same sh1t..... and he has to do it because he gets paid by the number of article he writes.

So he says rafa approaches the game as a 2 legged tie ? so how does that explain our results against reading and manure ?

What a brown-nosed M0R0N.......

[Toffeehater]

TOMKINS: IT'S A GAP, NOT A GULF
Paul Tomkins 25 March 2008
Whatever happened at Old Trafford, I had already decided that Liverpool are behind Manchester United in terms of talent but closing the gap.

These fixtures tend to take on an all-defining power, but ultimately it's just one game. And one-off games involve luck, the kind Liverpool haven't done well enough at Old Trafford to deserve in recent years, but which has been unfairly lacking in recent home games against United. United also used to win these games when Liverpool were the best side in the world, while the Reds regularly beat United when they were winning titles at the start of the new millennium, so it's important to put them into perspective.

United, based on the league table, were always going to still be the better team regardless, but the gap is closing in a season where United have actually considerably strengthened (adding £80m-worth of talent), when their squad was already far more expensive than Liverpool's to start with.

The result from Old Trafford, whatever it would be, would only sway my opinion a few percent either way: a draw, and we're where I thought; a win, and we're perhaps 5% ahead; a defeat, and maybe 5% behind. But performance, and ability to deserve more at Old Trafford, would also be important. In the end, maybe that was hardest to judge.

I hadn't reckoned with the Ashley Cole factor, and refs cracking down on any form of dissent following his bad foul and barracking of the ref last week. It's ironic that Liverpool hardly ever harass the referee, and rarely get players sent off, and yet pay the price of a clampdown while teams who misbehave more frequently continue to get away with it. Cole's tackle and reaction were far worse, but he got away with it. Ferguson, meanwhile, had put the referee under more pressure before the match.

Mascherano was clearly treading a tightrope, and while I understand his frustration at being booked for his first tackle while United players were only getting warnings, he should have kept out of things having already been cautioned and can't have too many complaints.

However, if referees are going to give one team all the bookings, and award nonsensical yellow cards, trouble will follow. Torres was being fouled and fouled again, by three United players in three seconds, and when he asked the ref about it, he got booked. Ludicrous, utterly ludicrous. Some refs have admitted letting Wayne Rooney swear at them 20 times or more in a match, and then Mascherano gets sent off for plain dissent following Torres' unfair booking. Where's the consistency?

Ten-man Liverpool showed character in the middle of the second half, and that's encouraging. But when United can bring on £60m-worth of talent (Tevez valued at £30m, even if only on loan initially), you can see the disparity in resources as they turned the screw in the last ten minutes. This when Ferguson's starting team already cost £30m more than Benitez's.

Unfortunately, it all coincided with Pepe Reina experiencing probably his most mixed game for the club - three wonderful saves, but also a couple of costly mistakes. I still think he's the best keeper in the country, but part of United's success has been down to landing Van der Sar after years with dodgy keepers. Can they replace their ageing Dutchman when the time comes?

Much of the constant criticism of Benitez has been that he has never appeared to know what his best team is. I've never seen this as essential in the modern age, when the squad takes on more significance. Isn't it better to have two equally good players competing for one position, where you can't choose your best XI, than one good and one bad, where you easily can?

Ideally you'd want a great player in the mix, and few teams have two of those competing for the same spot. One is hard enough to come by, let alone two.

When trying to work out United's strongest team, who are their best midfielders? Ronaldo, Giggs, Scholes, Anderson, Nani, Hargreaves, Carrick and Fletcher are those who appear most. You could make a strong case for the inclusion of the first seven names in particular, but only four can start at once. Ferguson chops and changes them, and 'rotates' heavily, all without criticism, even when they lose.

If anything, the midfield situation is clearer at Liverpool, particularly since Gerrard was moved into a more advanced role (something Ronaldo also does for United from time to time). The most obvious choices for the two deeper midfielders are Mascherano and Alonso. Lucas is an excellent player for his age, and a handy option at this stage of his career, but is still learning when compared with the other two.

The left-wing role is being nailed down by the exciting Babel, who, like Lucas, is also learning. Babel, however, has the ability to be devastating, and that will only increase with experience of the league and maturity. He's improving, but there's more to come. He's at the stage Ronaldo was two or three years ago.

It's easy to say 'why didn't Benitez do all this at the start of the season', but that misses the point. First of all, Alonso was injured. That left Lucas, who was not ready to be a regular at that stage, and Sissoko, who had lost his confidence. So Gerrard played in a traditional midfield role; and even had he played in his current position, there's nothing to say the understanding with Torres back then would have been as strong as it is now.

Also, Babel wasn't ready to be as consistent; he was struggling to adapt to the pace of the game, and the frequency of matches. It's very hard for a manager expected to challenge for the title to bed in new players straight into the starting XI; there's no patience from outside with regard to mistakes while the adaptation takes place.

I feel that Liverpool are now where United were in 2006. Although the Reds finished just one point behind United that season, Ferguson's project was more advanced. He was about to have Ronaldo and Rooney come of age; whereas Liverpool were never going to get that dramatic improvement from the ageing Fowler and Morientes, while Cisse's pace on the wing had its limitations - he was never going to improve in the way Babel, a clever player, has the potential to.

In 2005/06, Benitez had some new key elements in place - Reina, Agger, Alonso - but since then he's added Torres, Babel, Mascherano, Lucas, Arbeloa, Skrtel, Aurelio and Benayoun, to name just a few. This collection of players is now starting to blend, but it can improve markedly given the age of the team and its time spent together.

Also, United invested even more heavily than Liverpool last summer, building from a position of strength - although they paid around £50m, they added £80m of talent in just four players last summer. How do you close a gap in those circumstances?

In Torres and Gerrard, the Reds have a combination to build success around, in the manner United did with Rooney and Ronaldo, before adding a third axis in Tevez. Of course, as soon as Liverpool found the prolific striker everyone said the club lacked, the focus switched to 'Liverpool rely too much on Torres'. Crazy.

It's important that Liverpool build on the formula the manager has created. But an avoidance of injuries to key players next season will be crucial; it is to any team. It's not possible to say how much a team relies on one player simply by removing their goals from the equation; after all, if they weren't playing, someone else would be. However, I find it hard to believe United would be doing anywhere near as well had Ronaldo suffered a serious injury in August.

Man-for-man, there's not a massive gulf between the two clubs' strongest XIs. But it's about the squad, too. Also, a team is not just a collection of individuals; it's how they gel together, and how much they exceed the sum of their parts. United have the advantage in that sense, having been together longer. They break with such pace and understanding, and that hasn't happened overnight. Liverpool, with Gerrard, Torres and Babel forming a new super-quick attack, are capable of matching them - but in time.

They also have players with league-winning experience from 2003 and before, which helped underpin their recent success. Liverpool are closing the gap in terms of team cohesion and unity, but the psychology of two decades without a league title will always be the hardest barrier to overcome.

A fit Agger, and Liverpool would almost certainly have been closer to the top three. He was missed in a number of home games in particular. Alonso was also missed. I don't think United had to get by without any key first-choice players for long periods this season, bar Gary Neville, who is not crucial to their cause.

Of course, a lot depends on how each of the big teams strengthen over the summer, and how quickly the new additions settle. I just feel that, despite the setback, Benitez is now really close to the side he wants. Will that be enough? With United building upon key elements Ferguson had put in place while Rafa was still at Valencia, it'll be hard. But hopefully not impossible. Time will tell...

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/NG159297080325-1024.htm

[Leonmc0708]

I have merged the two existing topics on this.

Some basic rules going forward:

1) If you dont like what an author composes dont read it.

2) ITs not cool or hip to pick the bones out of a piece that someone has spent time writing - if you think you can do better, then go for it, we are all (cyber)ears.

3) Look round the first page (AT LEAST) for similar topics before starting another one.

[66-1112520797]

Not everything Tomkins writes as of late to defend Liverpool is bóllocks.

But to be honest I cannot understand well the point he's making this article. I think it's too happy clappy even for me.

[The Manhattan Project]

According to Tomkins latest article, Liverpool are currently fourth due to the laws of the Eastern art of Feng Shui.

His theory is that rather than sitting in "rows", LFC fans should stand with their eyes closed and arms folded while chanting "Shanti.....Karba.....Aum.......Shanna".


Then we'll win more games.