Liverpool FC Forum

[Bad Bob]

I didn't compare us in quality with Bolton, just the level of were we at is the same as Bolton. They are as high as they can go, and we are as high as we can possibly go.

United last year may not of had one man who scored 25-30 goals but they had 4/5 players who made double figures in the league, we had Kuyt.

Rafa did well to get the best out of some of the players Houiller couldn't, I can't argue with that but to say the European Cup success was just about Rafa reshuffling them is billhooks.

Torres has proven in Spain he isn't a man who will score 25-30 goals, so your view about is he our man, he quite clearly isn't that man.

And still I stand by my belief that Rafa isn't a genius as many of you seem to presume.

You also believe that we should be signing the likes of Kevin Doyle and Matthew Taylor and that, just because Robbie, Stevie and Owen came through the youth set-up, that somehow means that the likes of Lindfield and Peltier are ready for first team football.  You'll forgive me, then, if I don't take what you believe all that seriously. 

[god_bless_john_houlding]

I didn't compare us in quality with Bolton, just the level of were we at is the same as Bolton. They are as high as they can go, and we are as high as we can possibly go.

United last year may not of had one man who scored 25-30 goals but they had 4/5 players who made double figures in the league, we had Kuyt.

Rafa did well to get the best out of some of the players Houiller couldn't, I can't argue with that but to say the European Cup success was just about Rafa reshuffling them is billhooks.

Torres has proven in Spain he isn't a man who will score 25-30 goals, so your view about is he our man, he quite clearly isn't that man.

And still I stand by my belief that Rafa isn't a genius as many of you seem to presume.

You also believe that we should be signing the likes of Kevin Doyle and Matthew Taylor and that, just because Robbie, Stevie and Owen came through the youth set-up, that somehow means that the likes of Lindfield and Peltier are ready for first team football.  You'll forgive me, then, if I don't take what you believe all that seriously. 

Don't take me seriously then you glory hunter, but when we sell Linfield, which we undoubtedly will, and he bangs in the goals for another Premiership team, you may well of taken me seriously.

As for signing Matty Taylor, when you compare him to our left backs he would come out on top. Doyle I said scored for Reading and asked should we take a punt on him, I never said we should sign him.

As you have said, Robbie, Stevie and Mickey Owen came through our youth set-up and why? Because they were given a chance by a British manager. Who was the last lad from our youth set-up who was given a proper run in the 1st team? Steven Gerrard nearly 10 years ago, when did our last British manager leave, nearly 10 years ago, is it just me or is a pattern forming? Peltier, Guthrie, Ostembor, Mellor were never given a proper run for a lenght of games so they were expected to be able to be superstars straight away without playing Premiership games. You can't be a superstar when you play a game then are  out of the frame for 10 and then brought back for another 1. Give them a go and believe me these lads will do a whole lot better than what many of the players who have been chosen ahead of them have done over the years.

[redtrader74]

Rafa and his management team see the youth players whenever they want, they can speak to them whenever they want, therefore it is safe to assume they know them very well, so if they are good enough they will play, if not they won't.
if you believe that our foreign managers have missed out players from the youth set up, can you please point out WHO has been overlooked, sold on and become a top class player?? 
Gerrard, Owen and Fowler were/are all world class, any manager would have recognised them, didn't Houllier give Gerrard his chance? I think he was foreign

[Bad Bob]

I didn't compare us in quality with Bolton, just the level of were we at is the same as Bolton. They are as high as they can go, and we are as high as we can possibly go.

United last year may not of had one man who scored 25-30 goals but they had 4/5 players who made double figures in the league, we had Kuyt.

Rafa did well to get the best out of some of the players Houiller couldn't, I can't argue with that but to say the European Cup success was just about Rafa reshuffling them is billhooks.

Torres has proven in Spain he isn't a man who will score 25-30 goals, so your view about is he our man, he quite clearly isn't that man.

And still I stand by my belief that Rafa isn't a genius as many of you seem to presume.

You also believe that we should be signing the likes of Kevin Doyle and Matthew Taylor and that, just because Robbie, Stevie and Owen came through the youth set-up, that somehow means that the likes of Lindfield and Peltier are ready for first team football.  You'll forgive me, then, if I don't take what you believe all that seriously. 

Don't take me seriously then you glory hunter, but when we sell Linfield, which we undoubtedly will, and he bangs in the goals for another Premiership team, you may well of taken me seriously.

As for signing Matty Taylor, when you compare him to our left backs he would come out on top. Doyle I said scored for Reading and asked should we take a punt on him, I never said we should sign him.

As you have said, Robbie, Stevie and Mickey Owen came through our youth set-up and why? Because they were given a chance by a British manager. Who was the last lad from our youth set-up who was given a proper run in the 1st team? Steven Gerrard nearly 10 years ago, when did our last British manager leave, nearly 10 years ago, is it just me or is a pattern forming? Peltier, Guthrie, Ostembor, Mellor were never given a proper run for a lenght of games so they were expected to be able to be superstars straight away without playing Premiership games. You can't be a superstar when you play a game then are  out of the frame for 10 and then brought back for another 1. Give them a go and believe me these lads will do a whole lot better than what many of the players who have been chosen ahead of them have done over the years.

Gloryhunter! You're Billy_5_Times aren't you? 

Right, to address your brilliant points:

You suggest that Fowler, Gerrard and Owen made the grade because they were given the chance to play.  I'd say you've got it exactly backwards.  These lads were given a chance because they made the grade: they were talented enough to play first team football for Liverpool Football Club--something most of our reserves can't say.  And, the same holds true for the Mancs reserve players--who do have a British manager so it's not about ethnicity, whatever you may want to believe.

I can tell you're not convinced, so let's look at the flip side.  Say that you're right and I'm wrong--that it's a matter of giving young British lads from the reserves a chance to play and they'll become top players.  If that's true then I ask you: how do these players fair when the move on to other clubs and do get the playing time you're talking about? How about Neil Mellor?  Is he banging them in for a top Premiership side?  Didn't think so--he's struggling to make an impact at Preston.  How's Otsemobor fairing?  Well, he's just made the step up to the Championship at Norwich City, after spending time with two clubs in the First Division.  Clearly he's a brilliant talent that we regret letting go.  Peltier was loaned to Hull City at the end of last season, which might suggest something about his potential.  And, there's so many more former reserve lads who are now plying their trade in the lower divisions: Zak Whitbread at Millwall, John Welsh at Hull City, David Raven at Carlisle United, etc.

Face it, fella, most of these kids are not up to playing week in, week out for the Liverpool first team.  Just because a Stevie or a Robbie came through the reserve team ranks does not mean that we have an untapped goldmine of homegrown talent just waiting to be given a shot by a savvy British manager.  Most of the reserve lads--including virtually all of the lads you've named--aren't good enough to play for Liverpool Football Club.  The sooner you accept that and broaden your horizons the sooner you may be able to appreciate the quality that Rafa brings to the club as manager...even if he's not British, eh? 

[LFC2007]

So a record points total in your second season is not evidence of progress in the league? Having the second best home record and the best defence at home is not progress? I think it is. You cannot judge the success of a manager in separation, you take into account all of the progress made. One relates to the other, especially when you have a lack of squad depth, had we not been in Europe we probably would have gained more points in the league due to a) rest and b) focus. The two are inextricably linked.

Please read what I have written because I haven’t got the slightest clue as to what you are talking about? When or where have I suggested that Liverpool hasn’t made progress under Rafa’s guidance? Success to me equates to medals, silverware and finishing 1st.

Anything below this is not good enough and isn’t success. Until Rafa wins the league, IMO he hasn’t been successful, progress leads to success, but they are two different components.

Well, when you make sarcastic comments about Rafa's progress I'd say that is a fairly strong indication that you don't feel we've made significant progress under him. You talk about success, but you make no accommodation for the 'progress' we've made - you talk in rhetorics. You suggest that expectation determines whether or not we are a big club, expectation is one thing, but the reality of that expectation is another. You won't distinguish between the two.

[account deleted by request]

If that's true, why do so many supporters seem to expect the title under Rafa when under Houllier by the end  we couldn't dream of winning the title?  Seriously, read the old threads, mate, if you want to see how bullish people were under Houllier.

We had the same dreams then as now Bob up to 2003, maybe thats why some of us are a little twitchy. We came second in 2002, everything seemed to be coming together and then we just fell apart. We stalled last year, we can't afford to crash and burn this year.I think old memories and the fear of "doing a Houllier" are making some of us too impatient.

Yet, think of what could happen if those worst nightmares come to fruition, a couple of more years without the title, Rafa moves on, and we get someone else with yet another five year plan, who brings in his own players etc etc.

Its time we showed we can challenge for the title if not win it, if only to banish the nightmare of Houlliers final years.

Rafa is a success. However in the league he has yet to make a title challenge.

[Bad Bob]

If that's true, why do so many supporters seem to expect the title under Rafa when under Houllier by the end  we couldn't dream of winning the title?  Seriously, read the old threads, mate, if you want to see how bullish people were under Houllier.

We had the same dreams then as now Bob up to 2003, maybe thats why some of us are a little twitchy. We came second in 2002, everything seemed to be coming together and then we just fell apart. We stalled last year, we can't afford to crash and burn this year.I think old memories and the fear of "doing a Houllier" are making some of us too impatient.

Yet, think of what could happen if those worst nightmares come to fruition, a couple of more years without the title, Rafa moves on, and we get someone else with yet another five year plan, who brings in his own players etc etc.

Its time we showed we can challenge for the title if not win it, if only to banish the nightmare of Houlliers final years.

Rafa is a success. However in the league he has yet to make a title challenge.

I totally agree, mate.  The ghosts of the Houllier era haunt us all still.  I'm obviously optimistic that history won't repeat itself and that we are truly on the up.  But, as you say, we'll have to see how this year goes to be sure.  I just have faith that Rafa will not lose the plot like Houllier did.  If, however, he starts talking a lot about "turning the corner" in his press conferences, we're fecked!

[JC_81]

In terms of this coming season, the bottom line is that Benitez has to make a title challenge, and if he doesn't then the pressure will seriously be on him.  At the moment he's not under pressure, but things change quickly in football.  If we spend this season trying to cling on to a CL spot after a poor start and lots of squad rotation, there will be fans calling for his head, mark my words.

He's got no excuses.  He already had a strong squad and now he's been given a lot of money to make it even better.  You may argue the new signings may take time to settle, but that's where Benitez earns his money, he has to use them properly in the early stages of the season and help them adapt their game.  No players will have World Cup hangovers, we have no long term injuries (yet) and all our best players should be totally focussed given they've all signed new deals this summer.

The last thing I want is for things not to work out for us this season, because Benitez will be on a slippery slope and I'd hate for us to have to start from square one with a new manager.  Despite what I've said there's plenty to be optimistic about.  I think we'll do well this season and think we've made a few decent buys.  I think we will challenge for the title, but I can't see us winning it unfortunately.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

I didn't compare us in quality with Bolton, just the level of were we at is the same as Bolton. They are as high as they can go, and we are as high as we can possibly go.

United last year may not of had one man who scored 25-30 goals but they had 4/5 players who made double figures in the league, we had Kuyt.

Rafa did well to get the best out of some of the players Houiller couldn't, I can't argue with that but to say the European Cup success was just about Rafa reshuffling them is billhooks.

Torres has proven in Spain he isn't a man who will score 25-30 goals, so your view about is he our man, he quite clearly isn't that man.

And still I stand by my belief that Rafa isn't a genius as many of you seem to presume.

You also believe that we should be signing the likes of Kevin Doyle and Matthew Taylor and that, just because Robbie, Stevie and Owen came through the youth set-up, that somehow means that the likes of Lindfield and Peltier are ready for first team football.  You'll forgive me, then, if I don't take what you believe all that seriously. 

Don't take me seriously then you glory hunter, but when we sell Linfield, which we undoubtedly will, and he bangs in the goals for another Premiership team, you may well of taken me seriously.

As for signing Matty Taylor, when you compare him to our left backs he would come out on top. Doyle I said scored for Reading and asked should we take a punt on him, I never said we should sign him.

As you have said, Robbie, Stevie and Mickey Owen came through our youth set-up and why? Because they were given a chance by a British manager. Who was the last lad from our youth set-up who was given a proper run in the 1st team? Steven Gerrard nearly 10 years ago, when did our last British manager leave, nearly 10 years ago, is it just me or is a pattern forming? Peltier, Guthrie, Ostembor, Mellor were never given a proper run for a lenght of games so they were expected to be able to be superstars straight away without playing Premiership games. You can't be a superstar when you play a game then are  out of the frame for 10 and then brought back for another 1. Give them a go and believe me these lads will do a whole lot better than what many of the players who have been chosen ahead of them have done over the years.

Gloryhunter! You're Billy_5_Times aren't you? 

Right, to address your brilliant points:

You suggest that Fowler, Gerrard and Owen made the grade because they were given the chance to play.  I'd say you've got it exactly backwards.  These lads were given a chance because they made the grade: they were talented enough to play first team football for Liverpool Football Club--something most of our reserves can't say.  And, the same holds true for the Mancs reserve players--who do have a British manager so it's not about ethnicity, whatever you may want to believe.

I can tell you're not convinced, so let's look at the flip side.  Say that you're right and I'm wrong--that it's a matter of giving young British lads from the reserves a chance to play and they'll become top players.  If that's true then I ask you: how do these players fair when the move on to other clubs and do get the playing time you're talking about? How about Neil Mellor?  Is he banging them in for a top Premiership side?  Didn't think so--he's struggling to make an impact at Preston.  How's Otsemobor fairing?  Well, he's just made the step up to the Championship at Norwich City, after spending time with two clubs in the First Division.  Clearly he's a brilliant talent that we regret letting go.  Peltier was loaned to Hull City at the end of last season, which might suggest something about his potential.  And, there's so many more former reserve lads who are now plying their trade in the lower divisions: Zak Whitbread at Millwall, John Welsh at Hull City, David Raven at Carlisle United, etc.

Face it, fella, most of these kids are not up to playing week in, week out for the Liverpool first team.  Just because a Stevie or a Robbie came through the reserve team ranks does not mean that we have an untapped goldmine of homegrown talent just waiting to be given a shot by a savvy British manager.  Most of the reserve lads--including virtually all of the lads you've named--aren't good enough to play for Liverpool Football Club.  The sooner you accept that and broaden your horizons the sooner you may be able to appreciate the quality that Rafa brings to the club as manager...even if he's not British, eh? 

Peltier's loan to Hull shows his class? Paul Anderson one of the most highly rated kids came from Hull, does that show his talent as well? Adam Hammill, another of the highly rated lads has been shift out on loan to St Mary's does that show his class as well? Danny Guthrie was given a "chance" by Rafa and now has joined Sammy Lee (LEGEND) at Bolton, is this a realistic showing of his class? Just because a player gets shifted out on loan to a lower league side doesn't mean that is his level of quality. If it did then David Beckham (CU>NT) would never of captained England because he was loaned out to Preston when he was trying to break into the United 1st team.

I understand what everyone is saying when they say "if they were good enough they would play" but you don't know how good they are until they are given the chance, which is my point. Robbie was given his chance and he took it with both hands. Owen made the most of the chance he was given by Roy Evans because Evans kept faith in Owen. David Thompson was given a good run and showed real promise before we shifted him off to Coventry. Ste Warnock who IMO was our best left back when he was at the club but was in out, never permanantly in the side (injuries didn't help). Gerrard and Carra have both proven there quality but if you seen Jamie Carragher play as a young kid he would never of made the grade, especially as a central midfielder which is where he started out because with the ball at his feet his a nervous wreck. But he was given a chance by Roy Evans because he saw potential, this is where I think British based managers differ from those from abroad. Foriegn managers bar Wenger aren't willing to give youngsters ago unless they are world stars already.

Yes many of our lads have been let go and went to lower league sides, but lets be honest thats only natural because you can't go any higher than LFC. As for the other big sides in the top flight, they have big enough sqauds not to take on our youngsters.

One final thing I want to state is I won't be disappointed this season, even if we don't win a thing, just as long as we mount a serious title challenge and by that I mean to be within 3 points of the leaders with 5 games left. I think for as far as I'm concerned if we don't mount a title challenge this year then Rafa will never a mount a challenge.

[LFC2007]

Ste Warnock who IMO was our best left back when he was at the club but was in out, never permanantly in the side (injuries didn't help).

This says it all for me, Warnock hadn't the quality to be our first choice left back. Riise and Aurelio are much more capable and are better players, they have the quality that Warnock lacks.

It seems that regardless of reality, you will always have an arhaic view that we should play Briitish youngsters irrespective of their quality. Gerrards and Fowlers don't come along too often.

Do you not understand that we can't afford to play the likes of Anderson, Lindfield or Peltier week in week out. It has to be done gradually in the lesser games, if they're not given a chance it's because they simply don't have the quality in the first place. If we had a young Fowler, we'd know about him. If we want to commit suicide we'll play Lindfield up front, Anderson on the wing and Peltier at right back from the very beginning against Villa.

[Owzat]

A massive success.

Look at what we WERE, then look at what we ARE.

While we can improve further, to say he's not been a success when there's only one trophy he has failed to land in 3 years (3 f*cking years, ffs - not 30), is a bit shortsighted.

The man is a genius, and with the time and the resources, I am sure he will deliver what everyone craves.

(But even then, certain people will still say he isn't a success, etc.)

I would say he's been as big a success as he can be without winning the league title. That's what he and people before him were brought here for, I have a sense of deja vu as three years in we're making pretty dramatic changes which loses stability. The key to the mancs winning the title last season was few changes, chelski chased a waste of space Cole and let Gallas and Huth go. They brought in an ego midfielder to fight the other egos in midfield and they went with Shevchenko instead of Crespo. All in all chelski boobed as much as the mancs turned it around

We have to be patient but it feels like Rafa has taken a lead character out of the play and tried rewriting the script three acts in. If we keep changing the characters how can we expect the play to run to the (desired) conclusion smoothly? Like the England cricket team we're never going to achieve consistency and get experience to achieve our goals (in ODIs in their case) if half the personnel are changed all the time

So I say again, Rafa has been as much of a success as he possibly can be without winning what he came here to (yet)

[Bad Bob]

Yes many of our lads have been let go and went to lower league sides, but lets be honest thats only natural because you can't go any higher than LFC. As for the other big sides in the top flight, they have big enough sqauds not to take on our youngsters.

Come on!  You don't think a Fulham or a Wigan or a Boro wouldn't find room for these kids if they were Premiership quality?  You better believe they would.  The fact that a number of our reserve players have moved permanently to lower division clubs speaks volumes about their capacity to become class players.  Look, youth teams and reserve squads the country over are full of decent players who, for a number of reasons, will never make the grade at their current club and that includes our lads.  It's not a matter of giving them the opportunity to play themselves into form because you could give some players a decade and they'd still not cut mustard.  Put another way, Neil Mellor will never, ever become the next Robbie Fowler or Michael Owen.  That's a fact that needs to be accepted.

Secondly, you've got to know that a number of very talented coaches within the Liverpool organization--including Rafa--are watching these lads very, very closely.  These people have an eye for talent and can pick out the diamonds in the rough.  They have the experience to predict which players will make the grade...and not necessarily in their current positions.  So, your presumption that Rafa has largely ignored the academy and reserve teams strikes me as rather misguided.

So, let's look at the evidence we do have.  No youngsters have come through the ranks yet, in the course of Rafa's three years here.  Moreover, he's brought in a lot of youth talent from abroad to join the academy.  Rather than dismissing him as some impatient 'foreigner' who doesn't know how to nurture British talent, perhaps it's more likely that there is a real dirth of quality British talent in the Liverpool pipeline at the moment or that the prospects that are there simply aren't ready yet.  Perhaps, that's why he's looking abroad.  As such, you may just need to prepare yourself for the possibility that the next quality prospect to come through the youth ranks will hail from Hungary not Huyton or Bulgaria not Bootle.*


(And let me say, before anyone starts, that this is not meant to sound anti-Scouse.  In a perfect world, the next great Liverpool player would come from the city and maintain that brilliant tradition of homegrown talent.  Statistically speaking, however, it's unlikely)

[redtrader74]

Everyone thinks we are on par with Chelsea and the Mancs for spending after getting Torres, but so far our net spend is around £22m, that is hardly on par with them. We spent about the same last year, before the Americans came in.

[66-1112520797]

As for already being title contenders, again I would say that if we're not genuine title contenders why are many, many supporters so expectant of a title challenge?  Why--and here I will include you specifically--are people so disappointed with third place?

I dont need to remind you of who we support, that itself should answer your question. I think you've even acknowledged that in this thread somewhere.
For the majority of the last 17 years we've been there or there abouts in the race for the title. Yet we still havent been able to finnish first. I've heard and previously gave excuses after excuses for the reasons why we havent achieved the success this club craves. Call me impatient, but 17 years is a very long time, the last time I saw us win the title I was a young boy aged 11. I'm now 28.

Its funny now, because I've heard this excuse "we need two or three players" to win the league, "we'll be there if we get them". But now I've noticed in this thread and another, people are already saying 'I doubt we'll win the league, maybe the bedding in of new players will now take time" another excuse in the making, I'm fed up with it. Its either 'we need new players' or 'Our new players need to bed in' by that chain of thought we're never going to win the league. I dont know by these peoples comments, if it means they have their doubts about Rafa's signings this summer to say this. I've always thought Torres was slightly overated, and the notion of 'he couldnt score in a brothel' has sprung to my mind when watching him, on the rare occassions. But I'm not going to judge him or any of our new players until I've seen for myself what there capable of in a Red shirt.

Also I couldnt honsetly give a rats @rse who was in charge of us now, Scholarie, Cappello, Houllier the Queen or Frank Butcher I'd be still unhappy my team, that they are still to this day consistently finding themselves there or there abouts in the league. Fortunately or unfortunately for Rafa its him, the pressure is on, I'm not making personel digs at him (far from it) I'm questioning the endless run of excuses him and previous managers have had.

This is Rafa fourth season in charge, realistically he needs the time to build up a contending squad. Whether he's almost there or not is another matter, but in the way he 'worked a miracle' in landing us the CL, I think the expectations rose higher after that for us domesticly. Unrealisticly, unfair ? maybe, but thats what happens if your manager of Liverpool football club.

[metalhead]

As for already being title contenders, again I would say that if we're not genuine title contenders why are many, many supporters so expectant of a title challenge?  Why--and here I will include you specifically--are people so disappointed with third place?

I dont need to remind you of who we support, that itself should answer your question. I think you've even acknowledged that in this thread somewhere.
For the majority of the last 17 years we've been there or there abouts in the race for the title. Yet we still havent been able to finnish first. I've heard and previously gave excuses after excuses for the reasons why we havent achieved the success this club craves. Call me impatient, but 17 years is a very long time, the last time I saw us win the title I was a young boy aged 11. I'm now 28.

Its funny now, because I've heard this excuse "we need two or three players" to win the league, "we'll be there if we get them". But now I've noticed in this thread and another, people are already saying 'I doubt we'll win the league, maybe the bedding in of new players will now take time" another excuse in the making, I'm fed up with it. Its either 'we need new players' or 'Our new players need to bed in' by that chain of thought we're never going to win the league. I dont know by these peoples comments, if it means they have their doubts about Rafa's signings this summer to say this. I've always thought Torres was slightly overated, and the notion of 'he couldnt score in a brothel' has sprung to my mind when watching him, on the rare occassions. But I'm not going to judge him or any of our new players until I've seen for myself what there capable of in a Red shirt.

Also I couldnt honsetly give a rats @rse who was in charge of us now, Scholarie, Cappello, Houllier the Queen or Frank Butcher I'd be still unhappy my team, that they are still to this day consistently finding themselves there or there abouts in the league. Fortunately or unfortunately for Rafa its him, the pressure is on, I'm not making personel digs at him (far from it) I'm questioning the endless run of excuses him and previous managers have had.

This is Rafa fourth season in charge, realistically he needs the time to build up a contending squad. Whether he's almost there or not is another matter, but in the way he 'worked a miracle' in landing us the CL, I think the expectations rose higher after that for us domesticly. Unrealisticly, unfair ? maybe, but thats what happens if your manager of Liverpool football club.

Top post there Bamaga, couldnt agree more

Well, we have to wait and see what happens in the new season