Liverpool FC Forum

[Bad Bob]

Genius or not genius? we can't measure that really. Is he amongst the top 5 managers in Europe at present? I think it can be argued that he is, especially with the recent overtures from Madrid, (three persistent offers if Rafa is to be believed).

Has he been a success? Well that is relative, what did we believe would be possible when he first came over? what did we think we would win within 3 years, in August 2004? Well i personally thought we were fcked, Owen going, Gerrard was speaking to Chelski. Struggling for fourth place and crap players, (Mellor, Fsp WTF, anyone using them as an argument to bolster a rosy outlook for Aug. 2004 is really scraping the barrel). As i said, 3 years ago would i have been happy with 5th 3rd 3rd, 1CL, 1CL final, 1 FA cup, 1 Carling cup final and also the best CL and FA cup finals in decades? yeah i am.

Ofcourse i want the title, but as Bob has said, it is the confidence in Rafa, the success we have had that has brought that hope close to reality. Under Evans and Houllier i thought we had the players on occasion to win the title, but never thought we had the manager, with Benitez we do.

Times may of moved on since Kenny D's playing days, but my point was we have never spent huge amounts on single players compared to other sides. My example was Dalglish who cost us less than half the price Forest paid for Trevor Francis.

NEVER? Beardsley and Barnes were record buys in their time.

The league is more difficult to win I hear a lot these days. Arsenal don't compete finiacally with Chelsea or United yet seem to be able to win the league, and remain unbeaten for 49 games as well. 1 simple reason why we haven't won the league

Arsenal last won the league four years ago, when the Abramovich money had only just turned up, with a Ranieri Chelsea 2nd. That was a culmination of 7 years work by Wenger, and the last 2 they have finished behind us.

We cannot exclude the CL when taking about Rafas success, and that is something that Fergie won once in 21 years and Wenger never.

Now that post really is spot on.

[.:RedKuyt:.]

Expecting a bit too much eh..

[66-1112520797]

I'm sorry but even if we take away the CL performances and just focus on what he's done in the league and in the domestic cups, he's still a success in my book

What finnishing 5th twice and and third once in the league is a success ?

Yeah alright mate whatever.

[Bad Bob]

I'm sorry but even if we take away the CL performances and just focus on what he's done in the league and in the domestic cups, he's still a success in my book

What finnishing 5th twice and and third once in the league is a success ?

Yeah alright mate whatever.

Well, first off it was 5th once and 3rd twice. 

More to the point, it depends how you define success.  I just can't hold with the notion that success is exclusively defined as winning the title.  For me, success is about making significant progress under Rafa's tenure--something I think we've done in both the league and in cup competitions (which, I'm sorry, fecking count when measuring success!).;  Yeah, yeah, but we had that poor season last year so how can we be making progress?, I hear you say.  Well, I still feel we're moving forward as a club and that we are in the process of making ourselves genuine title challengers. 

Rafa's not perfect, he's no genius but he is the best manager we've had since Dalglish.  He's made us into proper title contenders once more and he's helped us win some pretty significant silverware over the past three years.  Let's at least give credit where credit is due instead of establishing impossible expectations and then damning the man for failing to work miracles.

[Wilhelmsson]

By your definition Tim Henman was a successful Tennis player? There is making progress and then there is success and I cannot understand the notion of Rafa being a success in the league. Either we aren’t a club with a large stature anymore or fans views of success have changed. IMO we have made progress in the league, but this doesn’t equate to success. Success for me is silverware, nothing more and nothing less. Progress is not success, winning is success.

Rafa has made us into title contenders, since when might I ask? Last time I checked Liverpool were chugging away in 3rd place, twenty one points behind the league leaders, this is hardly contention is it? Even with the new signings there is still no real way of predicting whether or not Liverpool will be able to mount a serious challenge this up, coming season.

[account deleted by request]

I'm sorry but even if we take away the CL performances and just focus on what he's done in the league and in the domestic cups, he's still a success in my book

What finnishing 5th twice and and third once in the league is a success ?

Yeah alright mate whatever.

Well, first off it was 5th once and 3rd twice. 

More to the point, it depends how you define success.  I just can't hold with the notion that success is exclusively defined as winning the title.  For me, success is about making significant progress under Rafa's tenure--something I think we've done in both the league and in cup competitions (which, I'm sorry, fecking count when measuring success!).;  Yeah, yeah, but we had that poor season last year so how can we be making progress?, I hear you say.  Well, I still feel we're moving forward as a club and that we are in the process of making ourselves genuine title challengers. 

Rafa's not perfect, he's no genius but he is the best manager we've had since Dalglish.  He's made us into proper title contenders once more and he's helped us win some pretty significant silverware over the past three years.  Let's at least give credit where credit is due instead of establishing impossible expectations and then damning the man for failing to work miracles.

Arsenal have basically self destructed rather than us simply overtaking them. They have lost so many great players, and have been forced to introduce youngsters too early, and some pretty standard buys. Cole, Campbell, Pires, Bergkamp ,Vierra and now Henry. They take some replacing Bob!

Rafa is the best manager since Dalglish pretty much goes without saying. We need to make a decent challenge for the title though Bob. Cups are great and I wouldn't give any back but the league title says we are back more than any cup ever could!

[god_bless_john_houlding]

I'm sorry but even if we take away the CL performances and just focus on what he's done in the league and in the domestic cups, he's still a success in my book

What finnishing 5th twice and and third once in the league is a success ?

Yeah alright mate whatever.

Well, first off it was 5th once and 3rd twice. 

More to the point, it depends how you define success.  I just can't hold with the notion that success is exclusively defined as winning the title.  For me, success is about making significant progress under Rafa's tenure--something I think we've done in both the league and in cup competitions (which, I'm sorry, fecking count when measuring success!).;  Yeah, yeah, but we had that poor season last year so how can we be making progress?, I hear you say.  Well, I still feel we're moving forward as a club and that we are in the process of making ourselves genuine title challengers. 

Rafa's not perfect, he's no genius but he is the best manager we've had since Dalglish.  He's made us into proper title contenders once more and he's helped us win some pretty significant silverware over the past three years.  Let's at least give credit where credit is due instead of establishing impossible expectations and then damning the man for failing to work miracles.

I'll define success from the point of view as a scouse Liverpool fan who whitnessed us through the 70s/80s/90s and to the present day. Success=League title and a good cup run.

As the man himself said "1st is 1st, 2nd is nothing" Says it all, nobody remembers anyone who comes 2nd, which I might add Rafa is yet to do in the league, so god knows where that puts us in people's memory

Rafa's ratio in finals to wins 4 finals 2 wins, 50/50 not bad (super cup/charity shield as far as i'm concerned aren't major trophies so i excluded them before some smart ar.se decides to comment on them) As for the league he is has been a disgrace. No where near challenging which for Liverpool is failure.

Rafa finsihes out the top 4 in once in 3 full years. Houiller finishes out of top 4 twice in 6 full years. Rafa has the same ratio, so when we haven't won the league for 6 years under Rafa will you all want him out or will you still be living on for 2005.

[LFC2007]

By your definition Tim Henman was a successful Tennis player? There is making progress and then there is success and I cannot understand the notion of Rafa being a success in the league. Either we aren’t a club with a large stature anymore or fans views of success have changed. IMO we have made progress in the league, but this doesn’t equate to success. Success for me is silverware, nothing more and nothing less. Progress is not success, winning is success.

Rafa has made us into title contenders, since when might I ask? Last time I checked Liverpool were chugging away in 3rd place, twenty one points behind the league leaders, this is hardly contention is it? Even with the new signings there is still no real way of predicting whether or not Liverpool will be able to mount a serious challenge this up, coming season.

Is winning the UCL after 21 years not success by your definition?

We have made considerable progress under Rafa within the constraints he has had to deal with, in Europe but also the league. This coming season is a testing one, it is the first season where we will begin having spent money comparable to that of the mancs and chelski.

There is no doubt that Rafa is a top manager, he has an incredible track record for a reason. His time at Valencia is evidence that we should persist with him, his record in Europe is also evidence we should continue with him. Even the evidence in some of our league performances notably a record points total, but especially our home performances is evidence enough that he is the man to lead us to the title.

I would say this, you can moan all you like, I would sooner show patience for at the very least this coming season and respect the man for what he has done for us by putting us back on the map, Bad Bob put it in clear terms earlier - to believe and to expect are two different feelings. Compare those feelings under Houllier to the ones now, I know that I feel significantly more expectant of a title challenge this season than any time under Houllier.

[Wilhelmsson]

You clearly haven’t read what I have written or taken out of context to fit in with your points of view. I acknowledged Rafa has been successful in European and domestic cup competition, but he has fallen short in the league through a range of issues. To call Benitez successful in the league is inaccurate IMO. I’ve not questioned him as a manager, his credentials or the progress made. I am well aware of this, so there is no need to preach.

[LFC2007]

As the man himself said "1st is 1st, 2nd is nothing" Says it all, nobody remembers anyone who comes 2nd, which I might add Rafa is yet to do in the league, so god knows where that puts us in people's memory

Rafa's ratio in finals to wins 4 finals 2 wins, 50/50 not bad (super cup/charity shield as far as i'm concerned aren't major trophies so i excluded them before some smart ar.se decides to comment on them) As for the league he is has been a disgrace. No where near challenging which for Liverpool is failure.

Rafa finsihes out the top 4 in once in 3 full years. Houiller finishes out of top 4 twice in 6 full years. Rafa has the same ratio, so when we haven't won the league for 6 years under Rafa will you all want him out or will you still be living on for 2005.

This is the biggest load of tosh I've read.

You can use the simplistic rhetoric of decades gone, in reality, you have to gauge progress. By your definition, coming 17th and 3rd makes no difference, well it clearly does. It shows progress.

I consider Houllier far more of a disgrace than Rafa overall.

Rafa has achieved UCL football each season, Houllier couldn't do that. The fact that Rafa had to juggle the sh!t left over from Houllier's reign in the league and in Europe is remarkable. The ratio isn't the same, it matters little if you finish fourth and achieve Europe for the next season or coming fifth and winning the bloody competition and get into Europe, in fact the latter is clearly more empirical of progress. We were hardly miles off fourth in the 04/05 season, had we been 10th and won the UCL then I may have been concerned. He performed a balancing act with a depleted squad, missing off by a few points is hardly evidence he is a disgrace.

In two seasons time we will see where we are, until then, kindly button your lip.

[LFC2007]

You clearly haven’t read what I have written or taken out of context to fit in with your points of view. I acknowledged Rafa has been successful in European and domestic cup competition, but he has fallen short in the league through a range of issues. To call Benitez successful in the league is inaccurate IMO. I’ve not questioned him as a manager, his credentials or the progress made. I am well aware of this, so there is no need to preach.

So a record points total in your second season is not evidence of progress in the league? Having the second best home record and the best defence at home is not progress? I think it is. You cannot judge the success of a manager in separation, you take into account all of the progress made. One relates to the other, especially when you have a lack of squad depth, had we not been in Europe we probably would have gained more points in the league due to a) rest and b) focus. The two are inextricably linked.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

As the man himself said "1st is 1st, 2nd is nothing" Says it all, nobody remembers anyone who comes 2nd, which I might add Rafa is yet to do in the league, so god knows where that puts us in people's memory

Rafa's ratio in finals to wins 4 finals 2 wins, 50/50 not bad (super cup/charity shield as far as i'm concerned aren't major trophies so i excluded them before some smart ar.se decides to comment on them) As for the league he is has been a disgrace. No where near challenging which for Liverpool is failure.

Rafa finsihes out the top 4 in once in 3 full years. Houiller finishes out of top 4 twice in 6 full years. Rafa has the same ratio, so when we haven't won the league for 6 years under Rafa will you all want him out or will you still be living on for 2005.

This is the biggest load of tosh I've read.

You can use the simplistic rhetoric of decades gone, in reality, you have to gauge progress. By your definition, coming 17th and 3rd makes no difference, well it clearly does. It shows progress.

I consider Houllier far more of a disgrace than Rafa overall.

Rafa has achieved UCL football each season, Houllier couldn't do that. The fact that Rafa had to juggle the sh!t left over from Houllier's reign in the league and in Europe is remarkable. The ratio isn't the same, it matters little if you finish fourth and achieve Europe for the next season or coming fifth and winning the bloody competition and get into Europe, in fact the latter is clearly more empirical of progress. We were hardly miles off fourth in the 04/05 season, had we been 10th and won the UCL then I may have been concerned. He performed a balancing act with a depleted squad, missing off by a few points is hardly evidence he is a disgrace.

In two seasons time we will see where we are, until then, kindly button your lip.

ok 2 years and we will still be 20 odd points behind united and chelsea with that 1 champions league success and you lot will still be singing praises of Rafa. At the moment we are the equvilant of Bolton, gone totally as far as we possibly can. We won't break into the top 2 until we buy a proven 25-30 goal a season striker.

Yes we may of been just a few points behind but hang on a club the size of Liverpool not making the top 4 is a disgrace, FACT. Rafa had to get rid of the sh!t Houiller left. Lets take a look at the 2005 winning side in Istanbul and who bought that so called sh!t.

Dudek-GH
Finnan-GH
Carra-RE, developed under GH, made world class RB
Sami-GH
Traore-GH
Garcia-RB
Gerrard brough through by GH
Alonso-RB
Riise-GH
Kewell-GH
Baros-GH
Smicer-GH
Hamann-GH
Cisse-GH
So out of the 14 who played a part on 2 were Benitez's signings, Houiller left some sh!t didn't he?

I'm not denying we had an injury hit season as one of my earlier posts said "we hadn't had a fully fit squad since October 2004 when Gerrard was injured against United" but Liverpool because of it's name and size of the club are able to have cover in positions which is why we were able to perform such miracles in Europe.

One final thing, I think I need to clear up with people who are obviously under the assumption that I hate the sight of Rafa is this: Rafa has performed miracles in Europe in the 3 years he has been here but because of his constant failures in domestic football there is no way the fella can be classed as a genius.

[LFC2007]

ok 2 years and we will still be 20 odd points behind united and chelsea with that 1 champions league success and you lot will still be singing praises of Rafa. At the moment we are the equvilant of Bolton, gone totally as far as we possibly can. We won't break into the top 2 until we buy a proven 25-30 goal a season striker.

Yes we may of been just a few points behind but hang on a club the size of Liverpool not making the top 4 is a disgrace, FACT. Rafa had to get rid of the sh!t Houiller left. Lets take a look at the 2005 winning side in Istanbul and who bought that so called sh!t.

Dudek-GH
Finnan-GH
Carra-RE, developed under GH, made world class RB
Sami-GH
Traore-GH
Garcia-RB
Gerrard brough through by GH
Alonso-RB
Riise-GH
Kewell-GH
Baros-GH
Smicer-GH
Hamann-GH
Cisse-GH
So out of the 14 who played a part on 2 were Benitez's signings, Houiller left some sh!t didn't he?

I'm not denying we had an injury hit season as one of my earlier posts said "we hadn't had a fully fit squad since October 2004 when Gerrard was injured against United" but Liverpool because of it's name and size of the club are able to have cover in positions which is why we were able to perform such miracles in Europe.

One final thing, I think I need to clear up with people who are obviously under the assumption that I hate the sight of Rafa is this: Rafa has performed miracles in Europe in the 3 years he has been here but because of his constant failures in domestic football there is no way the fella can be classed as a genius.

No, in two years we shall see where we are. You want to jump the gun, that's your forte. If we haven't made a significant challenge in two years then you are entitled to moan all you like.

When you compare us to Bolton it just shows what little grasp you have of understanding the game.

You say we won't win the league until we buy a proven 25-30 goal a season striker, did the mancs have that last season? I don't think so. And what do you think Torres is? An excellent striker, maybe he will be that man you are speaking of.

Rafa had to JUGGLE the sh!t left ovber by Houllier. The Traores, the Dudeks, the Biscans, the Kewells, the le Tallecs, the Smicers. Under Houllier, I consioder it HIGHLY unlikely that he would have been able to get some of these sh!t players to do a job.
You don't get the point do you, Rafa had to make the most of some sh!t players. Houllier would hav efailed miserably in doing this in my humblest of opinions.

I never said he was a genius, but he has improved us as a club, in the cups and the league. Who would you rather see in charge? Where do you go if you sack him? You said Thommo and someone else before, they're not on the same level as Rafa. You can;'t just go English for the sake of it, just like you think we should play Lindfield up front and Hammil and Anderson on the wings, it just isn't reality. It's an archaic view of things.

[Bad Bob]

As the man himself said "1st is 1st, 2nd is nothing" Says it all, nobody remembers anyone who comes 2nd, which I might add Rafa is yet to do in the league, so god knows where that puts us in people's memory

Rafa's ratio in finals to wins 4 finals 2 wins, 50/50 not bad (super cup/charity shield as far as i'm concerned aren't major trophies so i excluded them before some smart ar.se decides to comment on them) As for the league he is has been a disgrace. No where near challenging which for Liverpool is failure.

Rafa finsihes out the top 4 in once in 3 full years. Houiller finishes out of top 4 twice in 6 full years. Rafa has the same ratio, so when we haven't won the league for 6 years under Rafa will you all want him out or will you still be living on for 2005.

This is the biggest load of tosh I've read.

You can use the simplistic rhetoric of decades gone, in reality, you have to gauge progress. By your definition, coming 17th and 3rd makes no difference, well it clearly does. It shows progress.

I consider Houllier far more of a disgrace than Rafa overall.

Rafa has achieved UCL football each season, Houllier couldn't do that. The fact that Rafa had to juggle the sh!t left over from Houllier's reign in the league and in Europe is remarkable. The ratio isn't the same, it matters little if you finish fourth and achieve Europe for the next season or coming fifth and winning the bloody competition and get into Europe, in fact the latter is clearly more empirical of progress. We were hardly miles off fourth in the 04/05 season, had we been 10th and won the UCL then I may have been concerned. He performed a balancing act with a depleted squad, missing off by a few points is hardly evidence he is a disgrace.

In two seasons time we will see where we are, until then, kindly button your lip.

ok 2 years and we will still be 20 odd points behind united and chelsea with that 1 champions league success and you lot will still be singing praises of Rafa. At the moment we are the equvilant of Bolton, gone totally as far as we possibly can. We won't break into the top 2 until we buy a proven 25-30 goal a season striker.

Yes we may of been just a few points behind but hang on a club the size of Liverpool not making the top 4 is a disgrace, FACT. Rafa had to get rid of the sh!t Houiller left. Lets take a look at the 2005 winning side in Istanbul and who bought that so called sh!t.

Dudek-GH
Finnan-GH
Carra-RE, developed under GH, made world class RB
Sami-GH
Traore-GH
Garcia-RB
Gerrard brough through by GH
Alonso-RB
Riise-GH
Kewell-GH
Baros-GH
Smicer-GH
Hamann-GH
Cisse-GH
So out of the 14 who played a part on 2 were Benitez's signings, Houiller left some sh!t didn't he?

I'm not denying we had an injury hit season as one of my earlier posts said "we hadn't had a fully fit squad since October 2004 when Gerrard was injured against United" but Liverpool because of it's name and size of the club are able to have cover in positions which is why we were able to perform such miracles in Europe.

One final thing, I think I need to clear up with people who are obviously under the assumption that I hate the sight of Rafa is this: Rafa has performed miracles in Europe in the 3 years he has been here but because of his constant failures in domestic football there is no way the fella can be classed as a genius.

So in a nutshell, Rafa's a disgrace because he's not won us the league yet, done no better than Houllier and taken us to Bolton's level, which is as far as we can go?  You, sunshine, are living in cloud cuckoo land. 

Is there a manager out there that could have won us the league by this point?  Nope.  Did Houllier manage to win the Champions League with all of those players he bought?  Nope.  Did Houllier ever lead us to 82 points in the league?  Nope.  Have Bolton ever won the Champions League?  Finished in the top four?  Nope and nope.  Do you even have the slightest clue what you're talking about?  Nope.  And, you say Rafa's the disgrace...unbelievable.

 

[Bad Bob]

By your definition Tim Henman was a successful Tennis player? There is making progress and then there is success and I cannot understand the notion of Rafa being a success in the league. Either we aren’t a club with a large stature anymore or fans views of success have changed. IMO we have made progress in the league, but this doesn’t equate to success. Success for me is silverware, nothing more and nothing less. Progress is not success, winning is success.

Rafa has made us into title contenders, since when might I ask? Last time I checked Liverpool were chugging away in 3rd place, twenty one points behind the league leaders, this is hardly contention is it? Even with the new signings there is still no real way of predicting whether or not Liverpool will be able to mount a serious challenge this up, coming season.

Okay, we're obviously working with different definitions of success.  So, let me ask a different question:

Are you satisfied with Rafa's management so far?

On the whole I am quite satisfied and I truly feel that the progress we've made under him has put us in a position to genuinely challenge for the title.

Do others feel differently?