Liverpool FC Forum

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Well, when you make sarcastic comments about Rafa's progress I'd say that is a fairly strong indication that you don't feel we've made significant progress under him. You talk about success, but you make no accommodation for the 'progress' we've made - you talk in rhetorics. You suggest that expectation determines whether or not we are a big club, expectation is one thing, but the reality of that expectation is another. You won't distinguish between the two.

I never intended to portray myself as sarcastic; I was being very sincere in my posts as I am with every discussion I participate in. Liverpool is making steady progress under Rafa, which is nice and I am pleased with this, however I refuse to overstate this because IMO a lot of fans are doing so, calling Rafa amazing is too strong a word for me to use at this current stage within his career at Anfield.

Liverpool is looking stronger every season under Rafa, what he has achieved thus far in his career with Liverpool has been good, he is a competent manager and I have every faith in his managerial abilities, he is the right man to bring the club back on track and steer us to league and European success (again) in the future (hopefully not too distant).

I have accommodated Rafa’s progress in my posts, I’m not going to drone on in my posts and state the obvious, and everyone associated with the club knows that the club has progressed under Benitez.

I understand what you are saying, and perhaps I am being ignorant in not suggesting Rafa has been successful in the league. That’s my mindset and this is how I think, I believe in Shankly’s quote of “You are either first or you are nothing”. Maybe this quote is too strong for some supporters, but for me, it’s spot on and it marks out the successful teams, players and managers from the minnows and middlemen.

Spot on pal, and like I said in my post above, I think different generations see things differently. I grew up with Shankly and then Paisley so compared to them Rafa isn't up there. Whereas my son grew up with Evans and then Houiller which makes Rafa look like a god. Just different generations have different opinions.

[maypaxvobiscum]

Well, when you make sarcastic comments about Rafa's progress I'd say that is a fairly strong indication that you don't feel we've made significant progress under him. You talk about success, but you make no accommodation for the 'progress' we've made - you talk in rhetorics. You suggest that expectation determines whether or not we are a big club, expectation is one thing, but the reality of that expectation is another. You won't distinguish between the two.

I never intended to portray myself as sarcastic; I was being very sincere in my posts as I am with every discussion I participate in. Liverpool is making steady progress under Rafa, which is nice and I am pleased with this, however I refuse to overstate this because IMO a lot of fans are doing so, calling Rafa amazing is too strong a word for me to use at this current stage within his career at Anfield.

Liverpool is looking stronger every season under Rafa, what he has achieved thus far in his career with Liverpool has been good, he is a competent manager and I have every faith in his managerial abilities, he is the right man to bring the club back on track and steer us to league and European success (again) in the future (hopefully not too distant).

I have accommodated Rafa’s progress in my posts, I’m not going to drone on in my posts and state the obvious, and everyone associated with the club knows that the club has progressed under Benitez.

I understand what you are saying, and perhaps I am being ignorant in not suggesting Rafa has been successful in the league. That’s my mindset and this is how I think, I believe in Shankly’s quote of “You are either first or you are nothing”. Maybe this quote is too strong for some supporters, but for me, it’s spot on and it marks out the successful teams, players and managers from the minnows and middlemen.

Spot on pal, and like I said in my post above, I think different generations see things differently. I grew up with Shankly and then Paisley so compared to them Rafa isn't up there. Whereas my son grew up with Evans and then Houiller which makes Rafa look like a god. Just different generations have different opinions.

but we all have to move on yeah? soccer now isnt the same as 10 or 20 years ago. if you cling onto ur past so much u wont have enough space in your hands to embrace the future when we win the epl in 2009. 

[babu]

soccer

hehe

[maypaxvobiscum]

lol
cause when i say football people tend to ask me if its the NFL im talking about

[chrisrafman]

i think rafa has been quite shrewd. look at the players we have from him. reina, agger, alonso, sissoko, mascherano, crouch, kuyt. try seeing us get to a cl final without them. even the buys havent broke the bank at all, zenden was free, kromkamp was a swap for josemi which the maoney was made back selling kromkamp to psv. nunez cost nothing, we made money on bellamy, cisse was a houllier signing. also i think gonzalez, pennant and arbeloa have a lot to prove next year. garcia is a legend and offloading him has helped bring in fernando torres. so were a lot stronger than 2004. we have world class throughtout the starting 11, squad depth, a big and talented youth team. new owners and a new stadium on the way. all rafa needed was the financial backing that the yanks are giving him. now watch us dominate engalnd for the next decade

If we get back to days I grew up with in the late 60s early 70s, watching us constantly destroy sides, which lead on to our great sides of the 70s and 80s I would be chuffed to bits, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

As for finicial backing, it really p!sses me off when people believe we have only been finically backed since the yanks arrived. David Moores put his hand in his pockets for every manager of whom he was chairman for. He allowed Rafa to go out and spend around 65/70 million pounds. So I hate this all Rafa needed was finicall backing, he has spent the majority of it on sh!t.

As people seem to believe I have a hatred for Rafa, I think this is a time to put the record straight. I was fortunate to grow up and watch us tear aparrt the finest sides England and the rest of Europe could offer on a regular basis. I think that is why I personally find it difficult to accept Rafa as a genius, because fans of my generation became acustomed to winning the league and since we haven't even been close to that under Benitez, I can't class him as a genius. Whereas for younger fans who grew up with the dross Souness put us through in the early 90s, Rafa probably looks the best thing since sliced bread. So I think my opinion compared to others, is just from the generations we grew up in. So overall, I think Rafa has made a huge impact on Liverpool Football Club, and he has taken us in the right direction, but for me to be 100% certain of the fella, he has to deliver his European form into league form.

rafa has a long way to go to equal shanks and paisley. im not calling him a genius. i think the guy has a plan and with buying the likes of torres and babel hes on the offensive this year. i dont think we could emulate the 60's 70' and 80's LFC as the money presence in football will prevent any team doing that. back then it was talent spotting and hard raw determination that won you games now its money, tactics and techincal wit that wins you games. my old man has told me some great stories about the LFC of old, when you look at gerrard and carragher and the way they play it makes me realise what my dad was talking about. i honestly trust rafa to put the right players around them and to be fair we do have one hell of a team with the additions this summer i got a good feeling the spaniard will deliver this year

[redsince2001]

Has rafa been a sucess so far?

YES !!! 

[Wilhelmsson]

Spot on pal, and like I said in my post above, I think different generations see things differently. I grew up with Shankly and then Paisley so compared to them Rafa isn't up there. Whereas my son grew up with Evans and then Houiller which makes Rafa look like a god. Just different generations have different opinions.

It’s little to do with age or generations IMO, its people’s perceptions and definitions which differ. I am merely eighteen years old and my views are that of my own, success to me is measured by accolades; progress is measured by an upward tide of steady achievement.

I grew up with Evans, Houllier and now Rafa and when you look back through the archives of the club’s illustrious history than none of the above have been highly successful within the league. I am not a person who advocates comparing  Shankly, Paisley, Fagan and Dalglish with a modern and contemporary manager like Benitez.

However those who believe Rafa has been successful in the league have different views on success than me and without sounding arrogant, I don’t understand the concept of being successful if you have nothing to show for it at the end.

Progress is one component, success is quite another.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

fair enough wihlemsson, i agree with you on how can we be classed as succesful in the league if we have nothing to show for it under Benitez.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

i think rafa has been quite shrewd. look at the players we have from him. reina, agger, alonso, sissoko, mascherano, crouch, kuyt. try seeing us get to a cl final without them. even the buys havent broke the bank at all, zenden was free, kromkamp was a swap for josemi which the maoney was made back selling kromkamp to psv. nunez cost nothing, we made money on bellamy, cisse was a houllier signing. also i think gonzalez, pennant and arbeloa have a lot to prove next year. garcia is a legend and offloading him has helped bring in fernando torres. so were a lot stronger than 2004. we have world class throughtout the starting 11, squad depth, a big and talented youth team. new owners and a new stadium on the way. all rafa needed was the financial backing that the yanks are giving him. now watch us dominate engalnd for the next decade

If we get back to days I grew up with in the late 60s early 70s, watching us constantly destroy sides, which lead on to our great sides of the 70s and 80s I would be chuffed to bits, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

As for finicial backing, it really p!sses me off when people believe we have only been finically backed since the yanks arrived. David Moores put his hand in his pockets for every manager of whom he was chairman for. He allowed Rafa to go out and spend around 65/70 million pounds. So I hate this all Rafa needed was finicall backing, he has spent the majority of it on sh!t.

As people seem to believe I have a hatred for Rafa, I think this is a time to put the record straight. I was fortunate to grow up and watch us tear aparrt the finest sides England and the rest of Europe could offer on a regular basis. I think that is why I personally find it difficult to accept Rafa as a genius, because fans of my generation became acustomed to winning the league and since we haven't even been close to that under Benitez, I can't class him as a genius. Whereas for younger fans who grew up with the dross Souness put us through in the early 90s, Rafa probably looks the best thing since sliced bread. So I think my opinion compared to others, is just from the generations we grew up in. So overall, I think Rafa has made a huge impact on Liverpool Football Club, and he has taken us in the right direction, but for me to be 100% certain of the fella, he has to deliver his European form into league form.

rafa has a long way to go to equal shanks and paisley. im not calling him a genius. i think the guy has a plan and with buying the likes of torres and babel hes on the offensive this year. i dont think we could emulate the 60's 70' and 80's LFC as the money presence in football will prevent any team doing that. back then it was talent spotting and hard raw determination that won you games now its money, tactics and techincal wit that wins you games. my old man has told me some great stories about the LFC of old, when you look at gerrard and carragher and the way they play it makes me realise what my dad was talking about. i honestly trust rafa to put the right players around them and to be fair we do have one hell of a team with the additions this summer i got a good feeling the spaniard will deliver this year

I understand that money plays a huge part in football today, but many sides best players are still the homegrown lads, who were brought up the English way, which is why they are so good. Ours are obviously Gerrard and Carra. Chelsea's is John Terry. United's are Gary C>U>N>T> Neville, Giggs and Scholes, it's only Arsenal who don't bring a great deal of homegrown kids through and thats because there youth team has more nationalities in it than the EU.  . So maybe if we brought a few more homegrown lads through, we may have more chance of winning the league. It worked for United throughout the 90s. Look at last year for United. They brought another english fella in, however sh!t I class him, Michael Carrick and they win the league. The majority of there players from abroad, Van Der Sar, Ronaldo and Saha have all been in the Prem for years now so they have adapted to it and I think that's our downfall. I don't think we've had enough proven Prem players in our ranks since Rafa arrived. This year we have only 2 new players to Premiership life and English conditions who will be regulars throughout this year, Babel and Torres. If Babel is like most of the dutch stars who have joined the Prem, he should take to it like a duck to water. Torres may be more difficult but I'm sure, by Christmas he will settled and we can really see the best of him.

[Bad Bob]

Since there's been a lot of talk in this thread about our youngsters and whether they've made/will make the grade for the first team, I thought it might be insightful to post the article below--courtesy of football365.com--which does a "where are they now?" with the Mancs' 2003 youth cup champion side. 



Where Are ManYoo`s Champions Now?
Posted 17/07/07 13:51
EmailPrintSave


Kieran Richardson's exit leaves just three members of ManYoo's 2003 Youth Cup winners at the club. For now. But whatever happened to Lee Sims? And Phil Picken? We take a good gander...


Luke Steele: Goalkeeper bought from Peterborough for £500,000 in 2002 at the tender age of 17 but went on to make a grand total of zero appearances for ManYoo before leaving for West Brom for nothing in 2006. Needless to say, he couldn't get a game for them either. In fact, the only club Steele has played for in the last five years has been Coventry.


Lee Sims: We confess we have absolutely no idea where this (presumably) right-back is today. Unless of course he is the man behind Lee Sims Chocolates or plays piano with the Platte River Band.


Phil Bardsley: Still at ManYoo. Just about. Has started three Premiership games with United in the last four years and ended last season being underwhelming at Aston Villa, who pointedly did not want to make the move permanent.


Paul McShane: Moved to the Baggies in the summer of 2006 with Steele but has fared rather better - becoming a regular in the West Brom side and earning a call-up to the full Irish squad. Still to play in the Premiership - the furthest he got at ManYoo was being assigned a squad number.


Lee Lawrence: Left-back released to join Scottish side Livingston after a loan spell with Shrewsbury Town. Since disappeared from the game - though his 'very best of' is available from Amazon.


Chris Eagles: The only player from this list (barring Kieran) to feature in the Premiership with ManYoo last season; he scored his first goal against Everton in April after returning from a loan spell with NEC Nijmegen, where he was usually used from the bench. With the wealth of midfielders at Old Trafford, expect him to be heading out on loan again some time soon.


Kieran Richardson: England international (!) who has joined Sunderland for £5.5m (!), proving beyond doubt that Roy Keane is still a massive, massive fan of ManYoo.


David Jones: Captain of this Youth Cup-winning side, but never made a Premiership appearance for ManYoo, though impressive loan spells at Preston and Derby did mean that he commanded a £1m fee when he joined the Rams in January. A genuinely good box-to-box midfielder, he'll be back at Old Trafford in Derby colours this season.


Ben Collett: Midfielder currently conducting a court case against Middlesbrough and their former player Gary Smith after a double fracture of his leg sustained during a bad challenge. Released by ManYoo, last seen playing for AGOVV in Holland after a spell with the NZ Knights.


Eddie Johnson: Striker given a free transfer in 2006 after making the grand total of one substitute appearance for ManYoo in the Carling Cup. Joined Bradford, who he helped into League Two with his meagre total of three league goals.


Sylvan Ebanks-Blake: Striker who joined Plymouth for £200,000 last season after two Carling Cup appearances for ManYoo (he has a 'one in two' scoring record). Has done okay at Argyle with ten league goals in his first season. Interestingly, he's a Liverpool fan.


THE SUBS

Mark Howard: Defender now on the books of Danish side Brondby.

David Poole: Midfielder who recently joined Stockport from Yeovil for £100,000.

Ramon Calliste: Remarkably on the books of both ManYoo and Liverpool but has recently been released by Scunthorpe United.

Tom Heaton: Goalkeeper still on ManYoo's books but yet to play.

Phil Picken: Defender/midfielder on the books of Chesterfield.

Sarah Winterburn



As the article makes clear, even the Mancs' youngsters and reserve players haven't been of the required quality of late, and their "British" manager knows it.  So, it's not just us that have struggled to bring young lads through to the first team.

[stmichael]

Has rafa been a sucess so far?

YES !!! 

good post!

[LFC2007]

So maybe if we brought a few more homegrown lads through, we may have more chance of winning the league. It worked for United throughout the 90s. Look at last year for United. They brought another english fella in, however sh!t I class him, Michael Carrick and they win the league. The majority of there players from abroad, Van Der Sar, Ronaldo and Saha have all been in the Prem for years now so they have adapted to it and I think that's our downfall. I don't think we've had enough proven Prem players in our ranks since Rafa arrived. This year we have only 2 new players to Premiership life and English conditions who will be regulars throughout this year, Babel and Torres. If Babel is like most of the dutch stars who have joined the Prem, he should take to it like a duck to water. Torres may be more difficult but I'm sure, by Christmas he will settled and we can really see the best of him.

Yep that's right the mancs did have a great batch of youngsters in the PAST. If the talent is not there you can't play them, what is there that you don't understand about that? It's like saying, if we play more local lads we'll win the league. Right, let's play Peltier, Anderson and Lindfield and see where it gets us.....relegated.

[Lando_Griffin]

Since when was Giggs from Manchester?

And while we're at it, let's take a closer look at the scum's "Golden generation":


Peter Schmeichel: Goalkeeper was the best of his generation, from that hamlet just outside Manchester known as "Denmark".

Jaap Stam: Signed for a then World-record fee (for a defender) from PSV Eindhoven. Born in that noted Industrial town of Kampen, Netherlands, Manchester.

Gary "B*stard" Neville: Born in a Manc slum to sibling parents, he and his brother Phil whiled away the hours by sucking one another's c*cks until ALex Ferguson offered them the chance to suck his, instead.

Ronny Johnsen: Member of Utd's Youth Cup-Winning side, but only in his mind. Actually a 2nd-rate Centreback from Norway, which I am sure the Mancs will tell you, is just next to Salford.

Dennis Irwin: Has the distiction of being the only member of the treble-winning squad NOT born in or around Manchester. Was actually born in an Irish sett to Badger parents, Clyde and Martha.

Ryan Giggs: Exceptional winger who was born in the inner-most sanctum of Manchester, known as "Cardiff". Spotted by Manchester City, but poached by that red-nosed whiskey addicted b*stard when he offered homo-erotic videos and a lifetime's supply of Gillette razors.

Beckham was born in Manchester's feeder-town, "London" and poached from Tottenham Hotspurs' School of Excellence by the thieving Manc tw*ts. While still in London, he was tipped as the "Next Big Thing" in Menza circles, but on his arrival in Manchester his IQ dropped at a terrific rate until it finally stabilised at 14, slightly above the city's average of 2.

Keane: Self-proclaimed "Son of God" was bought from Notts Forest, Man Yoo's noted Youth Academy. He states that he was born in Ireland, but it has since been proven he is actually a Manc sewer rat, the spawn of rodent parents "Nancy and Geoff". His attempts at rubbishing this find were quashed by the High Court when he ran from the witness stand and robbed an innocent child onlooker of his Dairylea triangle.

Scholes: Has long been regarded as a shy thinker due to his lack of public appearances and interviews. It is actually due to the fact that he was born in Salford to a retarded gutter snipe and a geriatric kipper, and is thus unable to speak. (Although he CAN breathe under water, which is a very popular ability in the Scum's after-match bathtub.)

Cole: Bought for a then hefty £7m (£1m of which was made-up by Gillespie). Born in Nottingham, and already with his 4th club by the age of 24. (He actually started at Arsenal.) Was born the result of a botched scientific experiment to find a viable alternative to existing fertilizers, explaining the label "Andy Cole is horse sh*t."

Yorke: Born the b*stard son of a Pigmi and a Mango fruit (obviously in the suburbs of Manchester...), he is more famous for being an ugly c*nt than a footballer.
Fathered a child with a World-renowned prostitute, and has not been seen since.

Thank f*ck.

[LFC2007]

Peter Schmeichel: Goalkeeper was the best of his generation, from that hamlet just outside Manchester known as "Denmark".

 

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Giggs wasn't from manchester but he came through the United ranks, which was my whole point, but yet again people read it in their own way, to make their point look correct, pathetic.

Schmeichel best keeper of his generation my ar.se David James any day of the week.

Anderson, Linfield and Peltier will get us relegated, because they are young kids. OK so based on that view, football will become non exsistant because no young lad can make the 1st team because he will get his team relegated, what a load of sh!t. I suppose bringing Macca and Fowler at the same time got us relegated to didn't it?