Liverpool FC Forum

[Bad Bob]

As for already being title contenders, again I would say that if we're not genuine title contenders why are many, many supporters so expectant of a title challenge?  Why--and here I will include you specifically--are people so disappointed with third place?

I dont need to remind you of who we support, that itself should answer your question. I think you've even acknowledged that in this thread somewhere.
For the majority of the last 17 years we've been there or there abouts in the race for the title. Yet we still havent been able to finnish first. I've heard and previously gave excuses after excuses for the reasons why we havent achieved the success this club craves. Call me impatient, but 17 years is a very long time, the last time I saw us win the title I was a young boy aged 11. I'm now 28.

Its funny now, because I've heard this excuse "we need two or three players" to win the league, "we'll be there if we get them". But now I've noticed in this thread and another, people are already saying 'I doubt we'll win the league, maybe the bedding in of new players will now take time" another excuse in the making, I'm fed up with it. Its either 'we need new players' or 'Our new players need to bed in' by that chain of thought we're never going to win the league. I dont know by these peoples comments, if it means they have their doubts about Rafa's signings this summer to say this. I've always thought Torres was slightly overated, and the notion of 'he couldnt score in a brothel' has sprung to my mind when watching him, on the rare occassions. But I'm not going to judge him or any of our new players until I've seen for myself what there capable of in a Red shirt.

Also I couldnt honsetly give a rats @rse who was in charge of us now, Scholarie, Cappello, Houllier the Queen or Frank Butcher I'd be still unhappy my team, that they are still to this day consistently finding themselves there or there abouts in the league. Fortunately or unfortunately for Rafa its him, the pressure is on, I'm not making personel digs at him (far from it) I'm questioning the endless run of excuses him and previous managers have had.

This is Rafa fourth season in charge, realistically he needs the time to build up a contending squad. Whether he's almost there or not is another matter, but in the way he 'worked a miracle' in landing us the CL, I think the expectations rose higher after that for us domesticly. Unrealisticly, unfair ? maybe, but thats what happens if your manager of Liverpool football club.

Good post.  You hit the nail on the head at the end, for me, when you acknowledge that we need to be realistic about how long Rafa's had to mould the team into a potentially title-winning side.  While supporters have been waiting 17 years and have grown increasingly impatient, Rafa has only been at this rather massive task for 3 seasons.  Nonetheless, he bears the burden of years of pent-up frustration mingled with a renewed sense of expectation but, as you say, that's just part of the job when you manage Liverpool Football Club.      This will certainly be a very revealing season.

[redtrader74]

Doubting that we will the league this year is not necessarily making excuses, when you look at our rivals, and see that pretty complete teams are adding players all in the region of 17m plus, you are entitled to feel uneasy.
Personally i think that we will and have to start strong, get to Christmas in genuine contention and then the race to May will be between us and the , Chelski and Asnl will suffer from the ANC, Drogba/Essien/Mikel massive hole in the team. I need the team to contend, to be a realistic threat to Red face and Maureen right to the end.

[bigmick]

It's an interesting thread this but I'm amazed that people think Rafa has done anything other than an amazing job. Lets be honest, he was left a pile a rubbish by the previous manager and the current squad bares no comparison whatsoever.

I actually think he has done a much better job than even most of his supporters realise. Were he to stop fecking around with the team, we would ALREADY have gone very very close to winning the Premeirship in my view. If he decides on a core of players this season, plays people in a position which is at least sensible considering their natural abilities and leaves the old Championship Manager selection process well and truly alone, we will be extremely close to winning it this season.

We would have been come within a whisker last season in my opinion with more sensible selections, and this time around the squad has clearly improved so i would expect us to be right up there. He's done a fantastic job and bought brilliantly, if he gives the team a chance to win the Premiership, you never know they just might.

[redtrader74]

Mick are you by any chance concerned about too much rotation???

[god_bless_john_houlding]

The kids aren't given a fair crack of the whip IMO, you lot have different opinions fair enough, I'm not a fan of arguing with other people's opinion, but from what I read people think if we have to gradually bring them through, but that's difficult when they are out on loan to Southampton, Hull or Swansea. Also maybe a Gerrard/Fowler/Owen or even a Sammy Lee comes along once every red moon but I'm sure Linfield could of done a better job than Kuyt or Bellamy last year. Idrizaj has scored a hat-trick in pre-season, granted against Wrexham, but he won't get a sniff of 1st team action this year so what's the point of him playing so well in friendlies. Also the billhooks of bedding them in against lower opposition, is what I said about the lads who were given a go last season, they play once then not again for anothe 3/4 months and are expected to adapt straight away. Given a run in the side I think these lads would perform. And I'm not just interested in the British kids, the youngsters from abroad obviously have talent so give them a go. Idrizaj has proven he can score, Roque has been here for a few years now, yet hasn't been "bedded in". Antwi looks good, but he will never get ahead of Carra/Agger (rightly in my eyes). The young keepers are a waste of time. Reina is 24 and just signed an extended 5 year deal, by which time these kids will be 20/21 and wanting 1st team footy which they won't get at Anfield so why waste time bringing them over.

[redtrader74]

To win the league we can't afford to lose more than about 3 games, so we haven't got time to speculate with youth teamers, unless they are absolute top drawer, or unless our hand is forced.

Saying that the youth team are not given a chance intimates that they are good enough but for some strange reason we go out and spend millions on transfers... very odd. The youth players are either not ready or not good enough. If they were good enough, logic dictates that they would fit into the first team easier than a new transfer, therefore it is safe to assume so far that they have not been.
The defining fact is that not one of the released players since Houlliers tenure to present has gone on to secure a first team place at another top club.

There is nothing wrong with signing young keepers, what if Reina is injured, decides to move on, loses form? It makes sense to spend the equivalent of Gerrards salary for a week or two on identified quality and potential.

[Penguins]

The same discussion every year.
Rafa has just done great so far both on and off the pitch.
He demands alot from his coworkers and players and wants the club to work towards a common goal.
He took over a team that GH had started to implode the last 2 years of his tenure.
Rafa stood there with a team barely making 4th, disillusioned players and the top striker leaving for peanuts.
And the recent big money outlays had been on players like
Cissé, Diouf, Cheyrou, Diao, Traore, Le Tallec etc and very little money for players existed.
The 1st 2 signings in Alonso and garcia were amazing especially if you look at their impact their 1st season and the price we paid.

He brought home the European cup for the 1st time in 21 years with players like Smicer, Traore, Baros etc, something GH was never even close to achieving.
Still little money in the summer and got Crouch cause Rafa saw something in him and paid £7m. A fantastic bargain when you look back what the player has done for the club and country. Slowly but surely Rafa got rid of all of GH's deadwood and recouped as much as he could(which wasn't much). The fact the we won the european cup didn't hide the fact that our team was still pretty poor and lacked quality in many areas. We still managed to get our highest points total in the PL and won the FA cup with a much inferior team compared to Chelski who had coughed up over £200m to win the league.

And the problems with transfer funds continued in the summer forcing Rafa once again to bargain hunt as there was once again no money and Rafa had to settle for 3rd choice players and even loan from Moore to afford Kuyt.
Still with an annual outlay of around £15m in his 1st 3 years everyone expected the title and it got worse when we won the charity shield. We had got Bellamy and Pennant fgs who we all knew was 3rd choice at best for Rafa and a player who in all honesty was just a huge gamble at £1.5m(Gonzales) was compared to Vicente and the likes.

With the worst schedule in modern time to start of the league
and a host  3rd rate late signings it took a long time to gel the team and we paid the price.
We once again beat Chelski for the 3rd time in a cup semi with all their merscenary players and got to the european cup final again and lost only cause of bad luck and a lack of cutting edge up front. We got 3rd again but the pts total can be explained by the fact that the players were only playing for points and not places in the end combined with the fact the the players we focusing on the final.

During those 3 years he has had to completely rebuild our squad with limited resources and revamp the youth academy and still satisfy the fans incredible hunger for trophies and winning. He has done this with about the same amount of money as the likes of newcastle and Spurs. And what have they won? Where have they ended in the standings?

One big problem with not having enough money is that you can't think very far ahead. Every year you have to bring in like 5-6 3rd choice players and hope that they'll work and come good. And not only that most of those players comes very late in the transfer window since you tried for other players 1st. That means the players needs time to gel as a team and you get a slow start. Then when reality sets in after the season 4-5 of those players will have to be sold since they weren't good enough and you repeat the same process as the previous summer. This way the team never progress as the team changes every year and real surefire quality players never comes in.

This summer is the 1st time Rafa has gotten a few of his 1st choice players which means he can sign them to long contracts with they knowledge that they indeed have quality.
You also get the players earlier so the team can gel in time before the season starts and there is no need to make wholesale changes next summer either since the odds that the new players will flop is much smaller.

At least now I can look at the future with hope even if I know it will take maybe a few more years before Rafa has built his team. But at least he has given me that hope that wasn't there 4 years ago.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

To win the league we can't afford to lose more than about 3 games, so we haven't got time to speculate with youth teamers, unless they are absolute top drawer, or unless our hand is forced.

Saying that the youth team are not given a chance intimates that they are good enough but for some strange reason we go out and spend millions on transfers... very odd. The youth players are either not ready or not good enough. If they were good enough, logic dictates that they would fit into the first team easier than a new transfer, therefore it is safe to assume so far that they have not been.
The defining fact is that not one of the released players since Houlliers tenure to present has gone on to secure a first team place at another top club.

There is nothing wrong with signing young keepers, what if Reina is injured, decides to move on, loses form? It makes sense to spend the equivalent of Gerrards salary for a week or two on identified quality and potential.

I can't see Reina moving on or losing form (obviously it will happen like the start of last year but because he world class he is able to put it to the back of his mind and carry on). Also I'm pretty sure the young keepers in our youth side, i.e. Roberts/Martin (gone now of course) or Mimms could of filled without us needing to sign youngsters, but this is a silly debate anyway, they're here now and for alls I know could be the next Ray Clemance.

I'm not arguing the fact we can't afford to experiment with youngsters, I understand that, I would just like to see one or two (mainly Linfield) given a chance. It sounds like I'm contradicting myself but by a chance I mean put him on the bench and give him that experince, so if things aren't going well we can put him on and it can't get any worse if we're not doing well in a particular match anyway and he may pop up with a goal. Also on the bench and if it is going well we can put him on and with the rest of the team's confidence high it would be difficult for him to fail like that. So I obviously don't expect us to put 11 youngsters in from the opening game against Villa, but one or two on the bench and all League Cup games will give them much better experiance than swanning of to lower league clubs.

I think people constantly saying these kids aren't yet good enough is tripe. You don't know how good a player is until he is given a chance. It's like seeing a lad in a maths class who got 2+2 wrong, the teacher won't know if he is good enough to answer 3+3 until he tries.

[LegBarnes]

To win the league we can't afford to lose more than about 3 games, so we haven't got time to speculate with youth teamers, unless they are absolute top drawer, or unless our hand is forced.

Saying that the youth team are not given a chance intimates that they are good enough but for some strange reason we go out and spend millions on transfers... very odd. The youth players are either not ready or not good enough. If they were good enough, logic dictates that they would fit into the first team easier than a new transfer, therefore it is safe to assume so far that they have not been.
The defining fact is that not one of the released players since Houlliers tenure to present has gone on to secure a first team place at another top club.

There is nothing wrong with signing young keepers, what if Reina is injured, decides to move on, loses form? It makes sense to spend the equivalent of Gerrards salary for a week or two on identified quality and potential.

I can't see Reina moving on or losing form (obviously it will happen like the start of last year but because he world class he is able to put it to the back of his mind and carry on). Also I'm pretty sure the young keepers in our youth side, i.e. Roberts/Martin (gone now of course) or Mimms could of filled without us needing to sign youngsters, but this is a silly debate anyway, they're here now and for alls I know could be the next Ray Clemance.

I'm not arguing the fact we can't afford to experiment with youngsters, I understand that, I would just like to see one or two (mainly Linfield) given a chance. It sounds like I'm contradicting myself but by a chance I mean put him on the bench and give him that experince, so if things aren't going well we can put him on and it can't get any worse if we're not doing well in a particular match anyway and he may pop up with a goal. Also on the bench and if it is going well we can put him on and with the rest of the team's confidence high it would be difficult for him to fail like that. So I obviously don't expect us to put 11 youngsters in from the opening game against Villa, but one or two on the bench and all League Cup games will give them much better experiance than swanning of to lower league clubs.

I think people constantly saying these kids aren't yet good enough is tripe. You don't know how good a player is until he is given a chance. It's like seeing a lad in a maths class who got 2+2 wrong, the teacher won't know if he is good enough to answer 3+3 until he tries.

Totaly agreed and to be fair to raffa we cant have a go at him buying youth players and saying stop buying kids cos other managers have failed in that area before him.

I think he has a plan for liverpool FC and that is part of it building a club for the future has to be just as important as trying to win the leauge every year.

He has to start some where and i think he has done a great job so far with his transfers. I think people dont have a foot to stand on about that area of his managereal skills.

I think its easy to be critical of his desisions now and then go told you 9 months later but he has proved he got the balls to make these choices and stick by them lets just back him 100% this year and enjoy the rollercoaster of a season we have in store for us.

In raffa we Trust 

[Bad Bob]

The same discussion every year.
Rafa has just done great so far both on and off the pitch.
He demands alot from his coworkers and players and wants the club to work towards a common goal.
He took over a team that GH had started to implode the last 2 years of his tenure.
Rafa stood there with a team barely making 4th, disillusioned players and the top striker leaving for peanuts.
And the recent big money outlays had been on players like
Cissé, Diouf, Cheyrou, Diao, Traore, Le Tallec etc and very little money for players existed.
The 1st 2 signings in Alonso and garcia were amazing especially if you look at their impact their 1st season and the price we paid.

He brought home the European cup for the 1st time in 21 years with players like Smicer, Traore, Baros etc, something GH was never even close to achieving.
Still little money in the summer and got Crouch cause Rafa saw something in him and paid £7m. A fantastic bargain when you look back what the player has done for the club and country. Slowly but surely Rafa got rid of all of GH's deadwood and recouped as much as he could(which wasn't much). The fact the we won the european cup didn't hide the fact that our team was still pretty poor and lacked quality in many areas. We still managed to get our highest points total in the PL and won the FA cup with a much inferior team compared to Chelski who had coughed up over £200m to win the league.

And the problems with transfer funds continued in the summer forcing Rafa once again to bargain hunt as there was once again no money and Rafa had to settle for 3rd choice players and even loan from Moore to afford Kuyt.
Still with an annual outlay of around £15m in his 1st 3 years everyone expected the title and it got worse when we won the charity shield. We had got Bellamy and Pennant fgs who we all knew was 3rd choice at best for Rafa and a player who in all honesty was just a huge gamble at £1.5m(Gonzales) was compared to Vicente and the likes.

With the worst schedule in modern time to start of the league
and a host  3rd rate late signings it took a long time to gel the team and we paid the price.
We once again beat Chelski for the 3rd time in a cup semi with all their merscenary players and got to the european cup final again and lost only cause of bad luck and a lack of cutting edge up front. We got 3rd again but the pts total can be explained by the fact that the players were only playing for points and not places in the end combined with the fact the the players we focusing on the final.

During those 3 years he has had to completely rebuild our squad with limited resources and revamp the youth academy and still satisfy the fans incredible hunger for trophies and winning. He has done this with about the same amount of money as the likes of newcastle and Spurs. And what have they won? Where have they ended in the standings?

One big problem with not having enough money is that you can't think very far ahead. Every year you have to bring in like 5-6 3rd choice players and hope that they'll work and come good. And not only that most of those players comes very late in the transfer window since you tried for other players 1st. That means the players needs time to gel as a team and you get a slow start. Then when reality sets in after the season 4-5 of those players will have to be sold since they weren't good enough and you repeat the same process as the previous summer. This way the team never progress as the team changes every year and real surefire quality players never comes in.

This summer is the 1st time Rafa has gotten a few of his 1st choice players which means he can sign them to long contracts with they knowledge that they indeed have quality.
You also get the players earlier so the team can gel in time before the season starts and there is no need to make wholesale changes next summer either since the odds that the new players will flop is much smaller.

At least now I can look at the future with hope even if I know it will take maybe a few more years before Rafa has built his team. But at least he has given me that hope that wasn't there 4 years ago.

A very, very sensible post...fair play to you.

[ConnO'var]

Rafa has been the most successful manager we've had since Dalglish. Of this, there can be no doubt in my mind.

To say that he's been an unqualified success at this stage in his managerial career with Liverpool is, I think, premature.
LFC has done very well in cup competitions (barring the League cup of course) in his tenure to date. And of course, for most, the measure of a manager's success is his ability to fill the cabinet with silverware.... something that he has achieved with the CL, FA cup and Charity shield in each of his 3 years in charge.

Having said that however, I am one of those who feel that our victories in the 2 major wins (CL and FA Cup) is not all attributable to the brilliance of his tactics. In fact, IMO he got it wrong with both his selections AND/OR tactics in all 3 of the major finals we've been involved with in his reign. IMHO, to a greater or lesser extent, we won 2 of those in spite of the mistakes.

But, as they say, the proof is in the pudding..... and he certainly has done well in this respect. Something I give him full credit and sincerely thank him for.... he has DELIVERED.

Have we improved under him? I definitely think that we are moving in the right direction in terms of results and the health of the club. I respect his ruthlessness in correcting his "mistakes" in the transfer market. But I think his ability to spot talent and the possibility of selected targets to integrate seamlesslessly into our system and ethos is suspect. Bellamy and Pennant being the 2 most recent signings that I feel were mistakes which could have been avoided.

Where he's not been so good, is in the League. I can understand that we may not be able to compete financially with the Man U's and Chelsea's of this world but surely in the 3 season's he's had, we can do better? To illustrate this, let me do a quick Owzat and look at the statistics in League in the 3 years under Rafa.

This is based on percentage of points won versus what was available....

                                                                         Season 1      Season 2      Season 3      Average
Obtained against MUFC, CFC, AFC                             17%             22%            33%             24%
Obtained against Everton                                         50%            100%           17%             56% 
Obtained against teams finishing in 6-10 position          43%            100%           40%             61%
Obtained against teams finishing in 11-17 position         64%            60%            69%             64%
Obtained against relegated teams                              67%             78%            78%             74%
Obtained at home                                                   70%             84%            80%             78%
Obtained away                                                       32%             60%            39%             43%

We have been abysmal against the so called members of the "Top Four". Once again I can understand this to some extent and we are improving, but surely we can do better than an average of 24%? Also, 56% against Everton is simply unacceptable to me. I know these are not easy games but the bluesh!te? Surely we can do better than that.

61% against teams in the 6-10th positions is not sterling. Against teams finishing in 11-17th, a 64% net result definitely needs improving.

His greatest challenge however is in away games... a sub 50% return is not good. 43% is poor.

The reasons for this? I'm not gonna bore you going through all the details that's been discussed on these boards but to sum it up in a few words...
1) OVER rotation
2) Rigid tactics
3) Substitutions which come too late
4) Overly defensive
5) Too much respect given to "lesser" opponents.
6) Insufficient passion.


So has he been a success? ---- YES.
Is he the best manager we've had since Dalglish? ---- YES
Have we improved under him? ---- YES

Am I happy with Rafa as the gaffer?   ---- Not entirely.
Is there better out there?                 ---- YES. Rose tinted glasses say King Kenny. Brain says Gus Hiddink

Should we get rid of him?                  ---- NO.
We have invested too much time in dealing with systemic issues, financially and team infrastructure to be rid now. It would be a MASSIVE step back now as the club would be stuck with players that a new manager may not want, systems he may not want etc etc.... We CANNOT afford another 10-20 year rebuilding yet agin.

As such, he will have my full support. This season, I'd expect a lot more..... Especially with the money we have spent and may yet spend.

YNWA.

[Bad Bob]

Rafa has been the most successful manager we've had since Dalglish. Of this, there can be no doubt in my mind.

To say that he's been an unqualified success at this stage in his managerial career with Liverpool is, I think, premature.
LFC has done very well in cup competitions (barring the League cup of course) in his tenure to date. And of course, for most, the measure of a manager's success is his ability to fill the cabinet with silverware.... something that he has achieved with the CL, FA cup and Charity shield in each of his 3 years in charge.

Having said that however, I am one of those who feel that our victories in the 2 major wins (CL and FA Cup) is not all attributable to the brilliance of his tactics. In fact, IMO he got it wrong with both his selections AND/OR tactics in all 3 of the major finals we've been involved with in his reign. IMHO, to a greater or lesser extent, we won 2 of those in spite of the mistakes.

But, as they say, the proof is in the pudding..... and he certainly has done well in this respect. Something I give him full credit and sincerely thank him for.... he has DELIVERED.

Have we improved under him? I definitely think that we are moving in the right direction in terms of results and the health of the club. I respect his ruthlessness in correcting his "mistakes" in the transfer market. But I think his ability to spot talent and the possibility of selected targets to integrate seamlesslessly into our system and ethos is suspect. Bellamy and Pennant being the 2 most recent signings that I feel were mistakes which could have been avoided.

Where he's not been so good, is in the League. I can understand that we may not be able to compete financially with the Man U's and Chelsea's of this world but surely in the 3 season's he's had, we can do better? To illustrate this, let me do a quick Owzat and look at the statistics in League in the 3 years under Rafa.

This is based on percentage of points won versus what was available....

                                                                         Season 1      Season 2      Season 3      Average
Obtained against MUFC, CFC, AFC                             17%             22%            33%             24%
Obtained against Everton                                         50%            100%           17%             56% 
Obtained against teams finishing in 6-10 position          43%            100%           40%             61%
Obtained against teams finishing in 11-17 position         64%            60%            69%             64%
Obtained against relegated teams                              67%             78%            78%             74%
Obtained at home                                                   70%             84%            80%             78%
Obtained away                                                       32%             60%            39%             43%

We have been abysmal against the so called members of the "Top Four". Once again I can understand this to some extent and we are improving, but surely we can do better than an average of 24%? Also, 56% against Everton is simply unacceptable to me. I know these are not easy games but the bluesh!te? Surely we can do better than that.

61% against teams in the 6-10th positions is not sterling. Against teams finishing in 11-17th, a 64% net result definitely needs improving.

His greatest challenge however is in away games... a sub 50% return is not good. 43% is poor.

The reasons for this? I'm not gonna bore you going through all the details that's been discussed on these boards but to sum it up in a few words...
1) OVER rotation
2) Rigid tactics
3) Substitutions which come too late
4) Overly defensive
5) Too much respect given to "lesser" opponents.
6) Insufficient passion.


So has he been a success? ---- YES.
Is he the best manager we've had since Dalglish? ---- YES
Have we improved under him? ---- YES

Am I happy with Rafa as the gaffer?   ---- Not entirely.
Is there better out there?                 ---- YES. Rose tinted glasses say King Kenny. Brain says Gus Hiddink

Should we get rid of him?                  ---- NO.
We have invested too much time in dealing with systemic issues, financially and team infrastructure to be rid now. It would be a MASSIVE step back now as the club would be stuck with players that a new manager may not want, systems he may not want etc etc.... We CANNOT afford another 10-20 year rebuilding yet agin.

As such, he will have my full support. This season, I'd expect a lot more..... Especially with the money we have spent and may yet spend.

YNWA.

A very good, very balanced post, mate.  Those statistics make very interesting reading and underscore the key areas that need fixing very well--notably, our away form and our form against our main rivals/Everton.

I think one of the big questions that's swirling in the background of this discussion is whether last season was a "blip" or whether the season before that was a "blip."  Let me explain.

I think most reasonable posters can understand what brought about our fifth place finish in Rafa's first year.  In a nutshell, a new manager with new ideas came to a new league (for him) and took over a team riddled with deadwood and blighted by inconsistency.  Over the course of the season a nigh-on-miraculous CL cup run monkeyed with our already inconsistent league form even more and we found ourselves in fith come May.  I recognize that most of us didn't like that outcome but, as I say, I think most of us understood it.

Roll on 2005-2006 and, after our usual slow start, we finally achieved a level of consistency and quality in the league that most of us hoped we could regain under Rafa.  The best team in the league from October on tells its own story and, with a fantastic FA Cup run thrown in, things were definitely looking up.

Which is why last season was such a bitter pill to swallow.  As your stats reveal, we went backwards in the league on a number of different fronts--most particularly in terms of our away form.  It all went rather pear shaped and it left many supporters scratching their heads.

So, which of those last two seasons was the blip?  Are we truly the rampant Liverpool of 2005-2006--the one that had a bad year at the office last season and will regain it's form in the upcoming campaign?  Or, was Rafa's second year the abhoration--a season of over-achievement in the league that papered over some telling flaws in the team's composition and the manager's approach...flaws that were exposed for all to see last season?

Well, people will probably have guessed my position by now: last season was the blip and we'll soon be back to the form we displayed in 2005-2006.  People with perhaps a bit less faith in Rafa than I have, however, might consider his second season as the blip.  Time will tell, of course, and maybe the answer's somewhere in between.  All I know is that that 2005-2006 season demonstrated what we were capable of.  A lot of those players are still with us and some of the lads we relied on then have been replaced with (hopefully) better quality players in the interim.  There's really no reason why we can't recapture and indeed improve on that form.  The burden's on Rafa to make that happen, however, starting at Villa Park 4 weeks from today. 

[ConnO'var]

So, which of those last two seasons was the blip?  Are we truly the rampant Liverpool of 2005-2006--the one that had a bad year at the office last season and will regain it's form in the upcoming campaign?  Or, was Rafa's second year the abhoration--a season of over-achievement in the league that papered over some telling flaws in the team's composition and the manager's approach...flaws that were exposed for all to see last season?

Well, people will probably have guessed my position by now: last season was the blip and we'll soon be back to the form we displayed in 2005-2006.  People with perhaps a bit less faith in Rafa than I have, however, might consider his second season as the blip.  Time will tell, of course, and maybe the answer's somewhere in between.  All I know is that that 2005-2006 season demonstrated what we were capable of.  A lot of those players are still with us and some of the lads we relied on then have been replaced with (hopefully) better quality players in the interim.  There's really no reason why we can't recapture and indeed improve on that form.  The burden's on Rafa to make that happen, however, starting at Villa Park 4 weeks from today. 

I agree, Bob.

I have to. I don't think me heart could take it if it wasn't.

There are other reasons why I agree LAST season was the aberration, of course..... The most important one being the loss of Kewell and the inability of Gonzalez to fill in, left a massive gap in the left mid/wing role. This made us impotent down the left for almost the whole seaon. The league's lesser lights knew that they'd have to stop us down the middle and down the right and they'll be in with a shout because these were our main areas of attack. All they had to do was deploy their resources in these areas and put minimal coverage down the left. As such we were often outmanned, outmuscled and quite simply stifled in these areas.

Not having the width to spread out the opposition cost us dearly due to the inherent nature of the way we are set-up as well as our distinct lack of flair players.

I think too many do not realise the importance of the loss of Kewell without adequate cover. It is not just the fact that our strikers weren't scoring often enough.... We didn't have the personnel down the left to utilise Kuyt further upfield.

I don't claim to be able to read Rafa's mind, but this is why I think he deployed Kuyt so deep.

With Kewell's return and the purchase of flair players like Torres, Youssi (who I think will be a d@mn good signing) and Babel (have never seen him play so this is more hope than anything), we should be able to give these teams something more to worry about and make it harder for them to shut-up shop against us.

It's the same every season, mate..... I'm putting fifty quid on us to take the Premiership back to Anfield this season.... I can't bring myself not to do it.... No matter how unrealistic this might be, I CHOOSE to believe that we will do it this year.

C'mon you RED men! I need the money...... 

[kunilson]

interesting stats, it seems the main reason for the blip last year (i too am pro-rafa) is because of poor performances away from home against teams in the top 10...

if this can be sorted with the addition of our creative players brought in this summer, and the consistancy of the 2005-2006 campaign regained. then we're good to go. obviously a good start is needed also....
i read somewhere that in rafa's 3 seasons we have scored 52, 57 and 57 goals. that is not enough, especially seeing that Arsenal scored more than 80 goals in a season and still didn't win the premiership. he has the right idea with the attacking players he has got in, now its just the balance of the team and how well they adapt. 4 weeks aint that long

[god_bless_john_houlding]

He has to start some where and i think he has done a great job so far with his transfers. I think people dont have a foot to stand on about that area of his managereal skills.

This is billhooks.

Rafa has probably made more bad buys than Souness. (Maybe not, but he has certainlly made his fair share)

Kromkamp, Nunez, Josemi, Morientes, Barragan, Padelli, Pelligrino, IMO Garcia, just didn't rate him, Zenden, Gonzalez, Bellamy, Arebloa, Paletta and Aurellio-- that is a starting 11 and 3 subs. Genius' don't make 14 bad buys in their careers never mind within 3 years.

I agree Rafa has brought in some really good players and world stars. His good players have been Momo, Mascherano, Crouch. His world class signings are Reina, Agger and Alonso. But 6 successes to 14 bad isn't a great ratio.

He has brought in Pennant and Kuyt who I don't class as bad buys although neither have set me pulses racing with excitement. So there are 2 ordinanry players. Not great signings but failed signings either.

As for this summer's signings. Torres, Babel and Yossi all look as if they could bring something to Liverpool Football Club so I'm excited by these 3. The youngsters he's brought in again may be world stars of the future especially Lucas, seen enough of him to decide he has talent. Voronin is just a stop gap really, he's here to replace Fowler and nothing more.