Liverpool FC Forum

[eds]

Leon, this post is quite daft indeed!

IT is quite daft indeed ? More so than the phrase quite daft indeed ? It almost definitely maybe certain to possibly be so yes and no.

How does one babble incoherently, yet think they are putting a logic argument forward???

You tell me, you have managed to do so here.

"I am amazed at times with some people who post on internet forums, the only kind of consistency most of the time is their incosistency"

What does this mean? Are you expecting people to post consistent views when we beat the likes of Besiktas 8-0, yet lose to teams like Marseille at home OR beat teams like Porto 4-1 at home but lose to Reading or draw to Brum at home? By what terms do you mean consistent? I believe that if we play like retarded monkeys, I will call it for what it is and if we play football out of this world, I will do the same? Surely this is "consistency" But if you expect me to be happy when we lose to a medicore team because we gave up or our players were not good, YOU CAN get your CRANK shaft off it mate, because you are SPROUTING !

I thought that was straight forward, but just in case I will explain again. Lots of posters on internet forums are inconsistent in their views, and will post about how good we are and how much we will win everything after a good result, and then post about how the manager has to go and the guy is a fool after one defeat.

This is not just here, in the pub and on hte radio phone ins as well. Instead of taking it easy following a win, and then going easy following a bad/indifferent result its got to be total and utter over reaction.

"How can you go from looking like we are going to win the league last week to defo not a chance this week ?"

Ummm prolly has something to do with realistic fans, (which you continue to undermine by the way) seeing results one week (per se scoring 21 goals in 5 games) and then drawing or worse yet losing to medicore teams (per se READING on the weekend)? I can clearly see why people would have a positive outlook only to be shattered once again. One of the posters a few weeks ago put it very eloquently, "we turned a corner this week" but the again "we are always turning corners" at this club. 

Its nothing to do with realistic fans, thats the problem here (for me).

Shattered ? - After one loss, our first in the league ? Shattered ? I was shattered in Athens and at half time in Istanbul, not following our first league defeat of the season in December.

"Is this same rationale (loss at a smaller club) to be applied to all of the title contenders ? Surely it needs to be does it not ? Great, cus then that means that United (Bolton) Arsenal (Boro) and our selves (Reading) are out of the title race already . . . . . .

Its a well known and much maligned theory that you see and learn more about your people in the face of a loss/defeat than you ever can following victories. It says a lot for our fans, and the word fickle definitely springs to mind, when following a defeat the same people who where eulogising about 21 goals in five games talk of slipping out of the title race after one loss."

FFS STOP USING THE WORD FICKLE. THERE IS NOTHING FICKLE IN SUPPORTING A CLUB THAT HAS ITS UPS AND DOWNS! All you are doing here is generalising people. Please go back into the last weeks threads and SHOW US where a particular poster was over the moon at how well we were playing and saying "we would win the league" only to this weekend "say that we are out of it". I have read a LOT of posts recently and can't remember anyone let alone a chorus of people falling into your absurd generalisation.

Stop using the word fickle ? Why ? Thats what all too many football fans are. Maybe its not their fault, maybe its born out of the media portrayal of football in this country. But fickle is EXACTLY what lots of football fans are.

When we win, its over hyped, when we lose its over played.

"We are not the Harlem Globe Trotters, and as such will not win every game. In fact the great sides of the seventies and eighties never won every game. Even the Invincible Arsenal actually only won 68% of their games in the infamous "invincibles" season."

Who in their right mind would think that we are invincible and will go undefeated for long bursts over the stage of a season? Who has said that? You won't get any argument from me BECAUSE YOU HAVE CREATED A BASELESS GENERALISATION AND THE COME UP WITH AN ENTIRE ARGUMENT AGAINST IT! The mind boggles, really it does???

The point is that we will not win every game, in fact we will even lose a few, so instead of making out liekthe World has stopped spinning people need to take a step back, engage the brain and not jump in two footed with posts like "Rafa is clueless"

"Only once has a team gone the whole season without loss, on average the league winners have lost 4.3 games per season and drawn 8.7 games over the last 15 years.

We currently have 1 loss and 6 draws. It looks like the four draws at home to date could cause us the biggest problem in our quest for the holy grail.

Interestingly if we are to clock up as many as 11, 12 or 13 draws in one season then the only team to have done this and still won the league with at least one defeat on the clock are United, in 92/93, 93/94, 96/97 and 98/99."

Those are all wonderful figures. Wonderful but stupid nonetheless, as no one understands what point you are trying to make.

The point is, for the hard of thinking like your good self, that we will lose games over the period of the season, and we will draw games, but we can still do this and win the league. I am not saying that we will, just that we still can.

Let me pull you off the train to Loonyville and put you back into "were we have been for the last 18 years and were the F**K we could be headed this week". Lose against Marseille tomorrow and we are out of the Champions League, why? Because we got 1 point from our first three games and lost to teams like Marseille and Besiktas, the equivalent of our relagation fodder in the EPL? Lose against Man United and our chances of winning the EPL take a turn for the worse, why?
Because we lost to Reading, because we drew to teams like Birmingham and Tottenham at home and scraped out draws against Pompey and Blackburn.

I now exactly where we have been the last eighteen years, I have spent most of it watching my club play football all over Europe.

Your argument here is look at what could happen if we lose ?

How about looking at what might be ? How about beliving ? How about daring to dream ? How about Faith in our future ?

Ah no fu.ck it lets look at the doom and gloom and what could go wrong.

Why, you keep asking? Now here it is the clincher, the word you soooooooo wrongly used earlier on..............

INCONSISTENT

So wrongly used ? How ? People are inconsitent with their views and over react, thats a fact.

Oh is this going to come back and haunt you son.

You ARE NOT my Father.

Under Rafa's tenure:

How does one team beat the likes of Chelsea, Juventus, Milan and go on to the win the CL? Yet only manage to come 5th in the EPL that same season?

How does a team beat the likes of Chelsea and The Scum and go on to win the FA CUP? Yet in the same season still can't beat them in the league?

How does a team beat Barcelona, Chelsea and play Milan off the park only to go down in painful CL final? Yet still be 20 points behind the winners of the EPL the same season?

Its called football, and thats why we all love it. Any day, David can beat Goliath. Any given Sunday (or Monday or Saturday or Wednesday or whatever) ANY team can beat ANY team.

That could be an off day, it could be cus one team plays out of their skin, cus one team plays absolute garbage, or it could just be one of those days.

It is also to do with the difference between cup football and league football. There is a big difference. If you need me to axplain this then let me know.

And then there is this season, good results against Arsenal and the recent 21 goals in 5 games patch only to draw against teams like the Brum and Tottenham at HOME or lose to teams like Reading, Marseille and Besiktas.

Once again, thats football. Man United lost to Bolton, Coventry and Man City this season, teams they SHOULD be beating on paper. (Sadly the game is not played on paper).

One word and one word only INCONSISTENCY.

No, poor form, a bad day at the office and poor decisions have also contributed to hose losses. Equally in MArsielle this season we saw the best performance by a visiting European team since Valencia a few years back. Who was it who managed Valencia again ?

And somehow the fans are inconsistent in your eyes? Don't worry mate there is a show on TV about some people deserted on island trying to find out what is going on? The title of that show sums up this thread.....................

Some fans are incosisten in that there is no middle ground Yes.

Whats the TV show by the way ?

So does the "in Rafa we trust" brigade actually think they are standing on middle ground? You are having a laugh aren't you?

The same generalisations you have made against stupid so called "fans" being doom and gloom merchants can be applied to the mindless idiots who don't dare to criticise Benitez and think that the very s%^t that comes out of his a&*e is gold. The man is flawed and as much as the "rose tinted spectacles" have trouble seeing it, the people STANDING in the middle have seen this or are slowly starting to come around.

Most of the points I raised have been ignored to suit your own agenda and that is to protect Benitez at all costs. It is very sad indeed. As sad as the idiots who come on here and insult him by calling him a "farkwit". He isn't a "farkwit" but he is no messiah either.

So you have seen us play in Europe over the last 18 years. WONDERFUL! CLAP CLAP CLAP. So has Leeds, so have the bitters, so have Newcastle. What's your point? That you are as happy as a mindless pleb not wanting to challenge for the PREMIERSHIP every year? We are bigger then them but hey, guess what some people's success is measured by low expectations, which sadly I can see that after a barren run over 18 years has started to effect some of our fans. Once again this you can't argue against, maybe you can say we have been to 2 European finals, but what does that have to do with the price of cheese in Switzerland? Until Rafa wins the EPL or starts to show signs that he can, my views won't change.

So before you start arguing once again your mindless generalisations, which I KEEP TELLING YOU I agree with. Why don't you look at the harder stuff? Why haven't we challenged for the EPL under Benitez yet? Why have we been in the wilderness for 18 years? Why are people content in coming 3rd or 4th every season? It's not a matter of lacking faith or passion, I have tonnes of that mate, don't question that. Question what we are doing right AND what we are doing wrong. Think analytically and logically, people twist that into "how dare you criticise Rafa?" and that view just s&*ts me to tears and is not MIDDLE GROUND? ?

God gave us passion and love, but he also gave us a brain. He didn't expect this to be turned off at the expense of following blindly like sheep by our passion and love for this great club.

[imouthep]

Why don't you look at the harder stuff? Why haven't we challenged for the EPL under Benitez yet? Why have we been in the wilderness for 18 years? Why are people content in coming 3rd or 4th every season? It's not a matter of lacking faith or passion, I have tonnes of that mate, don't question that. Question what we are doing right AND what we are doing wrong. Think analytically and logically, people twist that into "how dare you criticise Rafa?" and that view just s&*ts me to tears and is not MIDDLE GROUND? ?

Let's be honest here and take a step back LFC has been in the wilderness for a while now so four years ain't enough time to start doing the things you are speking of.Rafa inherited a squad that was not good enough and has started building it into title contenders.Rome was not built in a day, all our challengers took time to establish their dominance.I just feel the PL title is wanted so badly tat peole get frustrated too quickly when we look like we not challenging for it. In essence dispite the loss we are still in the same place as we were before the reading game 7 behind the leaders with a game in hand. I just think we should be a liitle lenient with our squad on this occassion. They just were not in it,especially rafa. But it is a huge week for them and can we blame them for losing focus?

Yes I think critism of rafa is warranted I just beleive that we need to look at the entire picture first.

[bigmick]

As always some good points, and I must confess there are elements of Eds stance which I can sympathise with. His assertion that the "In Rafa we trusters" do not necessarily occupy the middle ground is spot on of course, and I must confess I do get exasperated with various members of the "pro" brigade implying that I am a crackpot for thinking that just perhaps we overdo the tinkering just a bit on occasions.

I've said all along that if Rafa is proven correct, and that "Rafa style" is the way to go, then Wenger is wrong, Ferguson, Mourinho and just about every footballer who has ever played the game professionally over here. Stand by the manager by all means, stand up for your beliefs by all means, but the people who don't totally buy into the various theories about "freshness", "resting players"  and "using the whole squad" aren't complete nutters. Traditionalists maybe, but nutters? no.

Sometimes it's the refusal to accept the glaringly obvious on both sides which gets peoples backs up. I notice Leon, Bad Bob and Sabre all came out fairly quickly after the Reading game and accepted there had probably been an error in selection. Fair enough as there fairly obviosly was. Similarly, it would have been ridiculous to pretend as an anti-rotationer that we weren't previously playing very well, and that some of our pronouncements that Rafa had "seen the light" had proved to be groundless.

I've enjoyed the debate over the years, and I've learnt lots of things. had you have asked me whether it was possible to defend with the kind of watertight organisation that we have shown this season (obviously apart from the last game) I would have said no. I would have been wrong though, as the combination of zonally defending set-pieces and a reluctance to play any real offside trap, along with a permanently sat central midfielder has given us the best defence in the league. What gets me though is you'll get some wound up little rose-tinter reading that and saying to himself, "yeah ya fecker just shows you doesn't it? Fecking knee-jerker" and yet really, he won't have the most basic fecking clue what I'm actually on about

Who knows, perhaps there is the possibility that I'll get to learn the ultimate truth, that "Rafa style" really is the way to go. I have to say though, i don't think this is anymore a possibility now than I did before the season even started, and even if it comes to pass, it doesn't mean those that need to see evidence before they buy into the whole doctrine are cranks.

[taff]

I've said all along that if Rafa is proven correct, and that "Rafa style" is the way to go, then Wenger is wrong, Ferguson, Mourinho and just about every footballer who has ever played the game professionally over here. Stand by the manager by all means, stand up for your beliefs by all means, but the people who don't totally buy into the various theories about "freshness", "resting players"  and "using the whole squad" aren't complete nutters. Traditionalists maybe, but nutters? no.

just to clarify, and please correct me if Im wrong but the impression I get is that Rafa is the wrong man for the job in your opinion.

[bigmick]

I've said all along that if Rafa is proven correct, and that "Rafa style" is the way to go, then Wenger is wrong, Ferguson, Mourinho and just about every footballer who has ever played the game professionally over here. Stand by the manager by all means, stand up for your beliefs by all means, but the people who don't totally buy into the various theories about "freshness", "resting players"  and "using the whole squad" aren't complete nutters. Traditionalists maybe, but nutters? no.

just to clarify, and please correct me if Im wrong but the impression I get is that Rafa is the wrong man for the job in your opinion.

It's a fair enough clarification to ask for Taff'.

Quite simply, if I am right and "Rafa style" doesn't get us within striking distance of winning the Premiership this season (my own feeling is that we are good enough to get within a couple of wins, six points or so) then I would be advocating a change of management yes.

The reasoning behind this is that while I have the utmost respect for Rafa's abilities as a tactician, and as a buyer of good value players, the feeling is (and backed up by the evidence) that come what may he will be sticking with his policies visa-vis team selection. I think the argument that "Man Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal rotate as well" has kind of come and gone now. Even the pro-rotationers I think would accept that Rafa has his own particular way of picking the team and that he is going to stick to it.

Should we reach the end of this season around twelve points adrift of the top (which is around where I think we'll be) then we have two options it seems to me. Number one of course is to take the view that Rafa has really only had one season where he has been able to compete in any way financially with the other big clubs, and therefore he deserves at least one more shot. the second option is that we make the decision that even if we are to buy more and better players, we will still be at various points in the season scratching our heads about some strange decisions or other which have cost us points and a chance to challenge.

If I'm right and rotating "Rafa style" cannot bring us the title, then it follows that I think we should change the manager at the end of the season if it once again doesn't put us within shouting distance of the League winners crown.

[taff]

its a fair enough answer to be honest

I am in the more time camp if he doesnt finish within a fighting chance margin at the end of the season. I think he is good enough to bring the title home and I dont believe in getting rid of managers without the full amount of time and support.

However these are different times and I understand peoples frustrations.  I actually enjoy your arguments BM and you are sensible in your approach and that I do respect, but I think we disagree on this topic.

I can no longer use the unbeaten argument but I think we will be competitive at the end mainly due to the fact that it is more competitive for everybody this season

[LFC2007]

If I'm right and rotating "Rafa style" cannot bring us the title, then it follows that I think we should change the manager at the end of the season if it once again doesn't put us within shouting distance of the League winners crown.

In which case, your strong belief that "Rafa Style" rotation will be our downfall to a title challenge this season, translates itself directly into a strong, almost concrete belief that Rafa should not be our manager next season. You've almost resigned yourself to the latter.

[112-1077774096]

again i ask what has previous seasons results for other teams have to do with this season, absolutely nothing leon

(queue smart *rse comment from leon without actually addressing the question)

[taff]

previous season results can give you an average of what is needed to win the league i would imagine.

but i dont want to talk for leon.

can this feud be dropped please especially as people were discussing football for a while

[112-1077774096]

previous season results can give you an average of what is needed to win the league i would imagine.

but i dont want to talk for leon.

can this feud be dropped please especially as people were discussing football for a while

nothing to do with any feud mate, i asked the question on the first page and he gave a smart *rse comment, i want to know why he thinks previous seasons results are important, especially when we are talking about other teams, i fail to see what relevance they have, taking into account squads change, three teams change each season, managers change etc etc etc there can be no relevance.

lets remember leon is the first one to press people for answers when they write something he disagrees with so he should expect the same back from time to time, like i said its not feud based, it simply wanting an answer as to why he thinks they are important

[bigmick]

If I'm right and rotating "Rafa style" cannot bring us the title, then it follows that I think we should change the manager at the end of the season if it once again doesn't put us within shouting distance of the League winners crown.

In which case, your strong belief that "Rafa Style" rotation will be our downfall to a title challenge this season, translates itself directly into a strong, almost concrete belief that Rafa should not be our manager next season. You've almost resigned yourself to the latter.

Indeed. Provided of course that he doesn't prove me totally wrong by either winning or coming very close to winning the Premiership (allowing for the LFC factor).

My strong belief though is that that won't happen, and if the threads are getting started later in the season saying "Do you think we should look for a new manager next season?", my response will be yes.

[LFC2007]

If I'm right and rotating "Rafa style" cannot bring us the title, then it follows that I think we should change the manager at the end of the season if it once again doesn't put us within shouting distance of the League winners crown.

In which case, your strong belief that "Rafa Style" rotation will be our downfall to a title challenge this season, translates itself directly into a strong, almost concrete belief that Rafa should not be our manager next season. You've almost resigned yourself to the latter.

Indeed. Provided of course that he doesn't prove me totally wrong by either winning or coming very close to winning the Premiership (allowing for the LFC factor).

My strong belief though is that that won't happen, and if the threads are getting started later in the season saying "Do you think we should look for a new manager next season?", my response will be yes.

So, in conclusion, you harbour a faint hope that Rafa will see the light.

This faint hope is enough for you to cling on to the belief that Rafa should be allowed a chance to prove himself, at least until the end of this season.

Barring a miracle, in your view Rafa should go.

Some might argue, from your perspective, why not advocate a change of manager a.s.a.p, if this hope is so slim.

One season as good as written off, perhaps from your perspective bringing in a new manager a.s.a.p. would be a more sensible approach in order to enable him to implement his own methods - planning for the transfer window et al. Who knows, come the end of this season, several of those top managers who may otherwise have been in contention, might just have been snapped up. Time thriftiness is of the utmost importance in this respect, don't you think?



NB: LFC2007 in no way endorses the views disclosed above.

[112-1077774096]

If I'm right and rotating "Rafa style" cannot bring us the title, then it follows that I think we should change the manager at the end of the season if it once again doesn't put us within shouting distance of the League winners crown.

In which case, your strong belief that "Rafa Style" rotation will be our downfall to a title challenge this season, translates itself directly into a strong, almost concrete belief that Rafa should not be our manager next season. You've almost resigned yourself to the latter.

Indeed. Provided of course that he doesn't prove me totally wrong by either winning or coming very close to winning the Premiership (allowing for the LFC factor).

My strong belief though is that that won't happen, and if the threads are getting started later in the season saying "Do you think we should look for a new manager next season?", my response will be yes.

So, in conclusion, you harbour a faint hope that Rafa will see the light.

This faint hope is enough for you to cling on to the belief that Rafa should be allowed a chance to prove himself, at least until the end of this season.

Barring a miracle, in your view Rafa should go.

Some might argue, from your perspective, why not advocate a change of manager a.s.a.p, if this hope is so slim.

One season as good as written off, perhaps from your perspective bringing in a new manager a.s.a.p. would be a more sensible approach in order to enable him to implement his own methods - planning for the transfer window et al. Who knows, come the end of this season, several of those top managers who may otherwise have been in contention, might just have been snapped up. Time thriftiness is of the utmost importance in this respect, don't you think?



NB: LFC2007 in no way endorses the views disclosed above.

i dont think we should get rid sooner rather than later mate, rafa has shown he has the attributes and tactical know how to win games, his down fall is that he then changes these winning tactics just to fit in with his rotation policy. if he can get rid of this unexplainable desire to change things so often he can bring us the title, but while he continues with his changes in the mistaken belief it will work then i fear for him.

play players in their positions, play a first 11 unless there is injury, play out game and not the other teams games, we can be great again mate but rafa has to change his mindset for that to happen.

give him until the end of the season at least

[bigmick]

So, in conclusion, you harbour a faint hope that Rafa will see the light.

It's a very interesting conclusion to draw from my answer to Taff's enquiry, and I would suggest you read that (it's only about five or six posts before your one). You do have a habit of paraphrasing my posts and then coming up with an entirely different meaning to what I've written, when in actual fact I don't think I could be clearer.

Here we go, just one last time., just for LFC (as I'm sure everyone else who read it probably understood my original reply). If rotation "Rafa style" proves to work by my aforementioned parameters, then I will be the first one to admit I was wrong all along, and in that case I would be advocating giving Rafa more time. 

If however we fail to achieve the levels set out in my aforemntioned parameters, I would be advocating a change of manager.

The reason I don't advocate changing the manager as of now is that I think Rafa deserves the opportunity to go the whole season with his stronger sqaud, to see if "Rafa style" can work this time.

If you read back to the aforementioned post, you will see that I said this bit there but I'll repeat it for you now. Those of us who claimed that were sensing a change of attitude by Rafa, a "seeing of the light" were actually totally wrong. The light we could see at the end of the tunnel was probably somebody lighting a Woodbine. I think there is zero point zero chance of Rafa ever changing his methods visa-vis selection.

Now without wanting to be rude, I don't think I could possibly be any clearer than I have been already. If you don't understand my point, then I'm afraid it shall have to remain one of lifes little mysteries   

[Ciggy]

The light we could see at the end of the tunnel was probably somebody lighting a Woodbine.

Its plain and simple what BM thinks that if Rafa stops making silly mistakes he can go on and be a legend at the club for many years to come.

But by not cutting out these silly mistakes out of his Rafa Style as Mick calls it, it could be his downfall.

Will he change his methods? Only he knows that answer but I get the feeling he wont.