Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

Look this thing about "wanting Mourinho" is a red herring. I don't think the majority of people particularly "want" any manager, they just want one who they think will get us to the point where we can have a serious tilt at the League Title. Now it might well be that the mix of players we have at the moment is not quite up to winning the league, but IMHO it's a better group of players than our current standing and where we are likely to finish up would suggest. People can point to "injuries" and I note the pro's are increasingly detailing this as the reason for our under-performance, (although curiously four weeks ago when we were flying injuries weren't a problem and we haven't sustained any since then) but some of us think it goes deeper than that.

For my part, and I've said this on countless occasions, if Rafa were to radically change his selection methods I'd support him staying at the club. By this we'd need to field a more consistent starting eleven obviously. We'd need to play with a fairly consistent formation or at least one that the players looked like they knew what the feck was going on with when we played it, and we'd need to start to move less towards players who give "options" and "possibilities" and more towards building a first team.

If Rafa was to make these changes, he can stay in charge for another couple of seasons for me. If though we are about to embark on season number five of "Rafa style", then it's time for someone else to have a go in my view. Mourinho's name has simply cropped up as an antedote to the ridiculous claims by some that there is no alternative to the current manager, or that all the players would immediately leave should Rafa go. My guess is the likes of Gerrard, Alonso, Carragher etc etc would like to win a League title at the club and would support any manager who they felt might deliver it. Whether or not they think that Rafa might deliver it while practising "Rafa style" is of course unknown to all but those closest to them, so I wouldn't even bother trying to guess.

[ruskiy playmaker]

It's clear that Benitez sees that the team is not good enough, that is why he is asking for more funds and talks about wanting better players.  I believe if Rafa had the proper funds we would see a more consistent first 11.  The reason why he keeps rotating is because he has a lot of average players and to get the best out of squad he tries to use their different qualities for different matches.  If he had the funds that he needed I bet he would sell a lot of current player in the team and he would bring in real quality.  You just have to see what Rafa does with quality he buys, Torres and Masch almost never get rotated.

[LFC2007]

I am not a "in Rafa we trust" believer but I think he deserves better than to be discussing his successor with half the season left. We arn't Newcastle. Give him till the end of the season, and then we can assess his performance.

The brigadier general believes that we will not achieve a title challenge this season, and that with the methods Rafa employs we will never achieve a title challenge.

Brigadier General? Oh dear. I see we are back into this tedious routine of asking the same question over and over again with a slightly different slant each time.

Just to clarify once and for all and for the last time on this particular point, no I don't think we should sack the manager "as soon as is physically possible". I'm not even advocating that we should sack the manager at all, I'd prefer to wait till the end of the season and assess the situation then. As for Mourinho, my understanding is that he's not available as of now because of a clause in his severence deal.

Like I say, that is my final word on that particular subject (as no doubt LFC will conjure up a new wording for the same question), although I do grudgingly admire the attempts by some who called the rotation debate complately, sheerly and utterly wrong from the get go to switch the focus into another area. If people think that Rafa ought to be sacked, why don't they just say so rather than trying desperately to get me to say so? It's very odd, particularly given my stance on that subject has been as entirely consistent as my stance on the rotation issue   

 

If you can't see the logic, I despair.

It's the risk of Mourinho (the ONLY manager any of the anti-Rafas can reasonably justify as a manager who has proven Premiership experience to the level we require, in the modern-day game) being unavailable come the summer vs. reasons which I can only assume are:

1) Sentiment towards Rafa, a mark of respect perhaps. But when has there ever been time for sentiment in football?
2) The risk that we may harm our Champions League endeavours if we sacked Rafa now, the unsettling effect any managerial change may make to this. Not that Mourinho has bad pedigree in the UCL.

If we're out of the league, and Rafa will not change his methods, and we will never win or challenge in the league during the time that these methods are employed, then why persist?

The logic is as clear as day.

How you fail to see this is beyond me, and I'm not the only one.

I don't share the views expressed above, but FFS, if you don't have any faith in Rafa's ability to deliver in the league period, then why persist with him?

I'm not attempting to get you to say he should be sacked, I'm merely following logic.

As for rotation, well, we all know your stance there (however many inconsistencies your arguments may have) and as far as I'm concerned you've proven nothing - other than the ability to bore people into submission, but that's a debate for another day, in another thread.

[LFC2007]

If Rafa was to make these changes, he can stay in charge for another couple of seasons for me. If though we are about to embark on season number five of "Rafa style", then it's time for someone else to have a go in my view.

You believe the likelihood of him changing his methods is 'zero', so what are we waiting for?

If you can name a candidate other than Mourinho, who is less of a risk than persisting with Rafa, please name them.

I can't think of anyone.

[account deleted by request]

My view

1/ should we have more points than we have considering the relative strengths and weaknesses of our team ........... yes

2/ Has Rafa extracted the best possible results out of the team and fixtures up to now ......No

3/ Would we have done better if we hadn't rotated to this point .................probably

4/ Does the team need strengthening ............probably we are a couple of players short of a title challenge (a top class creative second striker would IMO have closed the gap considerably)

5/ There is absolutely no chance that Rafa will "see the error of his ways". Rafa believes in rotation and will continue either here or wherever he goes.

6/ We are still in the CL, there is no-one better than Rafa to take us as far as we can go in that competition. I think we should wait until the summer before assessing the season and Rafa's position.

7/ Rotation may or may not have cost us points, what I feel is without question is our lack of matchwinners has cost us more.

8/ To claim injuries have damaged our challenge is a poor excuse, other teams have managed without having the resources to bring in top quality replacements like we have.

9/ I still believe formational changes are much more damaging to our performance and results than rotation.

10/ Is our title challenge over .............yes

[redtrader74]

Fair assessment Saint, i'd agree with a lot of it, and its good that you point out that there is a difference between rotation, team selection and formation, which, even some that should know better, group together as rotation, or fcking about.

[The_Rock]

My guess is it'll be those darned injuries, and there'll no doubt be a statistical analysis which tells us that if you compare the results so far this season with Rafa's forst season in charge of Valencia and divide it by the number of seasons Ferguson took to win the title, we're actually ahead of schedule in the twelve year plan.

Dude....u sure can give Letterman/Leno a run for their money....

lol   

[bigmick]

If you can't see the logic, I despair.

Oh dear. the logic of a severence clause for our friend Mr Mourinho which forbids him managing another English club this season is beyond LFC's comprehension? Sorry my man, I don't buy it. Limited though your football knowledge may be on occasions, you aren't a fool and I can't actually believe you are advocating, or asking me to advocate, sacking our manager in order to give the job to somebody who would be unable to take it?

Curiouser and curiouser. This is twice today that you have surprised me LFC. Your first time was with a good line which made me laugh, your second is with an argument which is so poorly structured it leaves me at a loss as to where to start.

As I've already made my position clear though on a number of occasions, I won't start I'll simply refer you to my previous answers. Perhaps while you're at it you can dig up those inconsistencies on the rotation issue. The problem you are going to run into of course, which I imagine must be incredibly annoying for you is that not only was I consistent, as it turns out I was right as well. As you allude to, it must be quite boring to be on the recieving end of that.

Happy New Year by the way.

[66-1112520797]

LFC = Dog with a bone.

"Happy new year by the way"

[parchpea]

Ferguson and Wenger may have taken time to build a team to win the title but football has changed since those days and these managers are survivors from a very different era and mindset.

In the modern game where billionaire owners call the shots and shell out big bucks no one is going to get 10 years to get it right.

Managers these days know they have to get it right almost instantly and this is why Benitez keeps calling for more spending money to save his own this summer.

Ferguson and Wengers departures will see those clubs enter a new phase and beleive me their replacements will not be afforded the time they have enjoyed if things begin to go wrong.

[tubby]

imo you cant use articles like this in the modern day as things have changed. It may have taken Fergie 10 off years to win the league but it wasnt 10 years spending money like we do in a season. Do you honestly think Rafa will be given up to 10 years of spending 30-40mil a season? Hell be lucky to see next season the way things are going. Big money is at stake these days, so you need results fast. Mourinho for all his whinging managed to do that al bet it with a lot of money.

Articles like this only wipe over the cracks, and the cracks are getting bigger. The fact is even with such players as Gerrard, Carra, Alonso and co we are still no closer to the league than when Rafa first took over. You can throw all sorts of wierd and wonderful stats to make it look like were not as bad as everyone makes out but believe it we are headed that way. I cant understand how we have failed to finish of these small teams at home this season. Im afraid for the rest of the season we better start singing "we won it 5 times" more often as thats the only competition we seem to be able to get anywhere in even when we are at our shi.ttest in the league.

[parchpea]

I agree bav we can always try and make ourselves feel better by rolling out one stat or another but when I see the team play, watch the players we have on the books and the way we are managed I can see it is not good enough.

For me there is loyalty too a fault with Liverpool supporters and whilst it is very touching it does not help when it means we hang on to underachievers to our own detriment.

We have given previous managers a season or two too long and in that time they can do a lot of long term damage when they have run out of ideas already.

I do not want this to happen all over again 

[LFC2007]

If you can't see the logic, I despair.

Oh dear. the logic of a severence clause for our friend Mr Mourinho which forbids him managing another English club this season is beyond LFC's comprehension? Sorry my man, I don't buy it. Limited though your football knowledge may be on occasions, you aren't a fool and I can't actually believe you are advocating, or asking me to advocate, sacking our manager in order to give the job to somebody who would be unable to take it?

Curiouser and curiouser. This is twice today that you have surprised me LFC. Your first time was with a good line which made me laugh, your second is with an argument which is so poorly structured it leaves me at a loss as to where to start.

As I've already made my position clear though on a number of occasions, I won't start I'll simply refer you to my previous answers. Perhaps while you're at it you can dig up those inconsistencies on the rotation issue. The problem you are going to run into of course, which I imagine must be incredibly annoying for you is that not only was I consistent, as it turns out I was right as well. As you allude to, it must be quite boring to be on the recieving end of that.

Happy New Year by the way.

I assume you haven't actually seen Mourinho's contract, and are going by press reports alone, which is fair enough. I would just add, in the event of any approach, I'm sure the lawyers would be willing to find a solution - I believe a solution was sought and achieved with Ranieri's Chelsea contract before he moved to Valencia. This is partly besides the point in any case, which you seem to be constantly alluding to, which is; Why persist with a manager who you so strongly believe will never achieve a title challenge at this club?

If time is of the essence in football, why not change the manager now? What reason, in your view, overrides the need to secure a manager who can give us a much better chance of securing a title challenge now?


Whatever happened to: 'If however we fail to achieve the levels set out in my aforemntioned parameters, I would be advocating a change of manager.' ?

We have failed to achieve the levels you set out, as we are out of the title race, in your view. 'Rafa style' management, in your view has not succeeded. Therefore to follow up on your pearl of wisdom, you should now be advocating a change of manager - because NOW we are out of the title race, in your view.

Poorly structured argument?

How exactly?

I think that would apply to you and your chameleon like opinions.

You seem intent on wanting to start some sort of 'flame war' as you would term, going by the increasingly patronising tone of your posts. No thank you.

I'm certainly not the only one who finds your logic puzzling - so please stop trying to make out as if I am.

I'll just finish off by pointing out, there is a difference between being inconsistent on a particular point, and having 'inconsistencies in your arguments' - of all people I thought you'd be able to make this distinction.


Happy new year aswell btw.

[bigmick]

Whatever happened to: 'If however we fail to achieve the levels set out in my aforemntioned parameters, I would be advocating a change of manager.' ?

Well we certainly don't want any flame wars, there's been far too much of that around here recently. No I think we are going to have to agree to differ on this one LFC.   

Your assumption that I haven't actually seen Mourinho's contract is indeed correct but I'm glad you think that as it's been reported everywhare and not denied, that believing those reports is fair enough. As for the lawyer thing, well you'd know better than me on that one. When it comes to dissecting a few paragraphs and debating each nuance with ever increasing zeal, I don't claim to be too many peoples equal and certainly not your good self. I shall leave the lawyers to you.

I've quoted the line above, as it is an accurate representation of what I've been saying for a good while now. I don't however, and never have advocated changing managers mid-season. I actually think if you dragged up the whole quote verbatim, it would say "at the end of the season" at the end of your quote. Perhaps not though, perhaps this is the pyrric victory you've desperately been searching for over these last few months, perhaps I didn't mention "at the end of the season" on this one particular occasion. I doubt it though, because if I hadn't you'd have directly quoted me. We'll see.

What I would say to you though, is don't give up. If you keep digging for long enough, you will surely find an instance where my anti-rotation, stance on the manger has at some point during the 3000 posts or whatever it is, wavered form a straight line. You haven't managed it yet, but I've no doubts that if you look hard enough you will.

The reson for that is like I said previously, I don't dissect hours and hours of writings examining every nuance. It's not my speciality on this forum. I just stick to the football, that's where I'm happiest.

Chameleon like opinions?    I do admire your persistence LFC if nothing else. Anyhow, I do know that you like to get the last word on all exchanges, so dig, delve, unravel and discover whatever you like, this is my final word on this particular exchange. I have explained my position on numerous occasions, and not for the first time you seem to be the only person on the forum who is having trouble getting to grips with it.

Here it is one last time for clarity. I don't think we should change the manager, whoever it is in mid-season. The time to assess a season is at the conclusion of it, not half way through. If Rafa continues with "Rafa style" and doesn't see the need to change tack, I would be advocating a change of management at the end of the season.

[LFC2007]

I refer His Royal Highness to my previous answers.

Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Chameleon, you come and go, you come and go....