Liverpool FC Forum

[taff]

I disagree there. I reckon Terry and Carragher are players on the top of their game at the moment and that is an important factor.  I agree with your assesment of Rio and Neville is the obvious right back mainly for his understanding with Beckham.

Campbell just hasnt had a stable season and Im surprised he was included to be honest.

For a world cup of x amount games I would go with the players on top of their game and that would be carragher and Terry. 

I know where your coming from but I do think that in a tournament like this those two would give you the vocal command and motivation that you need to go through the whole team

So you'd pick an England team on form?

I'm sorry but thats rubbish. I remember a few years ago when Everton signed Kevin Campbell and he scored 9 goals in 8 games which saved them from relegation, does that mean he should have been picked for England ahead of Fowler, Owen and whoever else? I'm sorry, but you're having a laugh. You pick international class players otherwise you come unstuck quite badly.

Terry and Carragher are great club players, i wouldn't swap Carragher for anyone, but to suggest they are international class is insanity.

The Campbell debate is a curve ball, ok you can use those examples and I agree but IMO they are international players and add to the overall balance. England are blessed in that area unlike upfront where Owen and Rooney are the obvious first choices regardless of the season just gone.

I tink England have the players to reach the final but it comes down to attitude and tean spirit and belief and the players that give you that dont necessarily have to be world class

[Good Bob]

I disagree there. I reckon Terry and Carragher are players on the top of their game at the moment and that is an important factor.  I agree with your assesment of Rio and Neville is the obvious right back mainly for his understanding with Beckham.

Campbell just hasnt had a stable season and Im surprised he was included to be honest.

For a world cup of x amount games I would go with the players on top of their game and that would be carragher and Terry. 

I know where your coming from but I do think that in a tournament like this those two would give you the vocal command and motivation that you need to go through the whole team

So you'd pick an England team on form?

I'm sorry but thats rubbish. I remember a few years ago when Everton signed Kevin Campbell and he scored 9 goals in 8 games which saved them from relegation, does that mean he should have been picked for England ahead of Fowler, Owen and whoever else? I'm sorry, but you're having a laugh. You pick international class players otherwise you come unstuck quite badly.

Terry and Carragher are great club players, i wouldn't swap Carragher for anyone, but to suggest they are international class is insanity.

The Campbell debate is a curve ball, ok you can use those examples and I agree but IMO they are international players and add to the overall balance. England are blessed in that area unlike upfront where Owen and Rooney are the obvious first choices regardless of the season just gone.

I tink England have the players to reach the final but it comes down to attitude and tean spirit and belief and the players that give you that dont necessarily have to be world class

Name a world class player without belief, confidence and determination/attitude to succeed...

I'm sorry i'm not having that at all.

England don't have the players, thats my point.

A few years ago they might have, but since then they haven't. Lampard is no Paul Scholes, Joe Cole who is probably as good as Scholes was is played out of position, Beckham and Owen are nowhere near what they were, Ferdinand isn't at the level he was and in absoloutely no way shape or form is Terry as good as Campbell used to be.

England aren't good enough. They are quite a long way short.

[JC_81]

Stu, I will agree that Gerrard and Rooney are world class players, but I'd be tempted to stick Terry into that category also.  It depends how you define 'world class'.  I define it roughly as a player who is in the top half dozen players in the world in their position.  Apart from those 3, England don't have any other World class players and you're right in saying that Campbell, Ferdinand, Owen and Beckham have all been at that level at some point in the past, but they certainly aren't any more.

In terms of form, you say that you don't pick an International team on form and that's fair enough to an extent.  But how do you define form?  You say Terry and Carra have had good form, but when that form stretches back 2 years for Carra and about 4 years for Terry then where do you draw the line between being in good form and being a bloody class player?  We're not talking about Kevin Campbell scoring 9 goals in 8 games here, we're talking about the 2 most consistently good centre backs in the Premiership for the last 2 seasons.  Ferdinand has never reached the form he did at the last world cup since.  For me that is more than just a dip in form - it is a sign he is no longer the same player (4 years is a long time in football).

For me you can just about justify playing Ferdinand ahead of Carra in this tournament as I think it's an advantage to have one quick centre back at International level, but if I was Sven I'd still be tempted to go with Carra and Terry simply because they're better out and out defenders than Ferdinand.  And how can you seriously say that Terry and Carra are not International class?  England are blessed with centre backs at the moment, Terry and Carra would both walk into ANY national team in world football right now (with the exception perhaps of Italy), so surely that makes them International class at least?

[Good Bob]

Stu, I will agree that Gerrard and Rooney are world class players, but I'd be tempted to stick Terry into that category also.  It depends how you define 'world class'.  I define it roughly as a player who is in the top half dozen players in the world in their position.  Apart from those 3, England don't have any other World class players and you're right in saying that Campbell, Ferdinand, Owen and Beckham have all been at that level at some point in the past, but they certainly aren't any more.

In terms of form, you say that you don't pick an International team on form and that's fair enough to an extent.  But how do you define form?  You say Terry and Carra have had good form, but when that form stretches back 2 years for Carra and about 4 years for Terry then where do you draw the line between being in good form and being a bloody class player?  We're not talking about Kevin Campbell scoring 9 goals in 8 years here, we're talking about the 2 most consistently good centre backs in the Premiership for the last 2 seasons.  Ferdinand has never reached the form he did at the last world cup since.  For me that is more than just a dip in form - it is a sign he is no longer the same player (4 years is a long time in football).

For me you can just about justify playing Ferdinand ahead of Carra in this tournament as I think it's an advantage to have one quick centre back at International level, but if I was Sven I'd still be tempted to go with Carra and Terry simply because they're better out and out defenders than Ferdinand.  And how can you seriously say that Terry and Carra are not International class?  England are blessed with centre backs at the moment, Terry and Carra would both walk into ANY national team in world football right now (with the exception perhaps of Italy), so surely that makes them International class at least?

World class is world class ability.

Theres no set number of players in a position being world class. After Schmeichal the only world class goalkeeper untill recently was Kahn, then he faded off it wasn't untill Buffon became consisntent there were world class keepers around.

Maldini was a world class left back, now i rate Zambrotta and Cole as the best two, but neither are world class players.

To say John Terry is world class is a shocking statement. I wouldn't even call him international class, he's not in Campbell or Ferdinand's league. He lacks to much physically and to many technical attributes to be considered world class, he also lacks the anticipation of Hyypia and often gets caught between a header and a kicked clearance down to this. The lads another Carragher. He's a club player at very best. You saw that when he tried to flatten Ronaldinho in the champions league and ended up bouncing off him and onto his .

Typically overhyped player from down south.

When i talk about form? Well ok John, Lampard, look at his "form" over the last 3 years mate, look how many goals hes scored. Carragher and Terry play in a system. I've already explained how it works. They are both consistent, i've explained that aswell. Carragher and Terry have previously both looked out of there depth at international level in numurous games. I'm not repeating myself again.

International class players will play football, to a great standard, anywhere. Carragher, Terry and Lampard aren't international class. World class players adapt to different systems and styles and cirumstances and partners. Carragher, Terry and Lampard don't.

I'm not repeating what i said about the training, relationships, tactics etc. It was perfectly valid and its been proven.

[Good Bob]

There is a massive difference in being a great performer as part of a great team and a great player.

To make it at international level, you need to have both.

[stmichael]

To say John Terry is world class is a shocking statement. I wouldn't even call him international class, he's not in Campbell or Ferdinand's league.

[JC_81]

If Carra and Terry aren't 'International class' then name me off the top of your head the centre backs in world football that you consider to be'International class'.

[JC_81]

Maldini was a world class left back, now i rate Zambrotta and Cole as the best two, but neither are world class players.

So if you picked your 'World XI' with Cole as the left back you rate as the best in the world, he still wouldn't be 'world class' in your eyes??  How does that work?

Surely the term 'world class' is simply a way of classing the players that are the best in the world at this particular time?  If Cole is the best left back in the world in your eyes them surely he's world class?

As for Schmeichel, he's a bad example in my opinion because he's probably the best keeper there's ever been and was way ahead of the field, but there have still been more world class keepers in the past decade outwith him, Kahn and Buffon.  Van der Sar, Seaman, Pagliuca, Canizares etc were all world class keepers in their prime in my opinion

[Big Niall]

How can you be be the best in the whole world at what you do but not be world class (like the goalkeeper example you used)

Total nonesense!

[Good Bob]

If Carra and Terry aren't 'International class' then name me off the top of your head the centre backs in world football that you consider to be'International class'.

Cannavaro, Nesta, Hyypia, Ferdinand, Gallas, Toure, Lucio, Puyol, Heinze, Ayala.

All footballers with excellent attributes in alot of area's.

I'm fed up of saying it, i'll say it once more. Carragher and Terry are club players. They train with there clubs EVERY day and practise the same things, they have the same role, they will be encountered with the same situations time and time again.

They know the players around them inside out and they know how the systems they play in work, they are both excellent players, but they aren't world class. The systems they play in and there surroundings brings the best out of them. 5 years ago if you'd said Carragher would be rated as one of the best in the country, let alone the world you'd have been laughed at. People were saying he shouldn't be playing for Liverpool let alone England.

Now people are saying he's something he's not once again. The truth about Carragher as a player has ALWAYS been somewhere in the middle. My opinion of him has never changed, i don't see much from him that he didn't have when he was 19/20 years old. I spent years fighting his cause saying he was an excellent player, now i'm getting told he's world class and i am underating him.

He's playing in a system that gets the very best out of him at Liverpool. When he played for England against Denmark he look so out of his depth it was frightening. That was only Denmark for crying out loud.

Its exactly the same situation with Frank Lampard. He's very overated because the system Chelsea play gets the very best out of him. Essien is an example, poor for Chelsea? Best player on the pitch against Italy... Why? Because the system doesn't get the best out of him.

Good players that play to there strengths often look ALOT better than they actually are. Lampard, Terry, Carragher, Crouch. Better players who don't play in good teams or systems that suit them often don't look as good, Pennant, Essien, Ashton etc.

International class players are better players than club players. Ferdinand and Campbell are better players than Terry and Carragher. Woodgate is also better than Carragher and Terry at full fitness.

Lampard is no better than the likes of Barton, Parker, Carrick, Emre, Bullard, Cahill etc.

I won't keep repeating myself, its about systems and you can't recreate a club system unless you have about 8 players from that club and the same manager and coaching staff. Surroundings will be different and tactics will be different and you need the best players to adapt.

You want an example of the gap in class of Carragher and someone like Gallas? Watch them both against Thierry Henry. See who fairs better.

[Good Bob]

How can you be be the best in the whole world at what you do but not be world class (like the goalkeeper example you used)

Total nonesense!

If every player on the face of the earth retired and i was left as being the best in the world. I wouldn't have world class ability. I'm not on about comparing players, i'm on about an ability level. World class players are world class players.

They aren't the best in the world at the time regardless of the quality in that position or area.

There isn't a top class right back in England. Gary Neville's probably the best in the country with Finnan and Ferriera. That doesn't make them outstanding players. It highlights a lack of quality in that position.

[ivor_the_injun]

If this thread has turned into one of Stu's incredibly tedious diatribes about who and what constitutes "class", then f*ck this for a game of soldiers.

What I will say is that if England don't suffer in the heat, don't lose another striker, and don't fall into the trap of sitting back for the last half hour of games, they are capable of doing some damage in this year's tournament. I don't think for a second that we'll win, but if we get a favourable draw and some of the minnows take some scalps, it may get interesting.

While Stu's clearly in the mood though, maybe he can list all of the world class players that featured for all of the following sides?...

2004 Euro 2004 winners - Greece
2004 Euro 2004 losing finalists - Portugal
2002 World Cup finalists - a poor Germany team
2002 3rd Place play-off - Korea vs Turkey

To get to the latter stages of, and even winning, a World Cup or European Championship these days, it's not necessarily about playing the best football. It's about grinding out results, getting important decisions going for you, avoiding suspensions and having enough quality players available for the duration of the tournament. The likes of Brazil and Argentina are more than capable of having a great run derailed by a dodgy penalty, a silly yellow card or an untimely injury. If fortune goes England's way, we've got enough goals in the side to make inroads.

Not that I'm willing to put money on us winning, mind.

[ivor_the_injun]

5 years ago if you'd said Carragher would be rated as one of the best in the country, let alone the world you'd have been laughed at. People were saying he shouldn't be playing for Liverpool let alone England.

5 years ago I wouldn't have had Carra in the England team, and now I would.

5 years ago Wayne Rooney was at school. Maybe we should take that into account before letting him back into the first 11?

[RedorDead]

If this thread has turned into one of Stu's incredibly tedious diatribes about who and what constitutes "class", then f*ck this for a game of soldiers.

What I will say is that if England don't suffer in the heat, don't lose another striker, and don't fall into the trap of sitting back for the last half hour of games, they are capable of doing some damage in this year's tournament. I don't think for a second that we'll win, but if we get a favourable draw and some of the minnows take some scalps, it may get interesting.

While Stu's clearly in the mood though, maybe he can list all of the world class players that featured for all of the following sides?...

2004 Euro 2004 winners - Greece
2004 Euro 2004 losing finalists - Portugal
2002 World Cup finalists - a poor Germany team
2002 3rd Place play-off - Korea vs Turkey

To get to the latter stages of, and even winning, a World Cup or European Championship these days, it's not necessarily about playing the best football. It's about grinding out results, getting important decisions going for you, avoiding suspensions and having enough quality players available for the duration of the tournament. The likes of Brazil and Argentina are more than capable of having a great run derailed by a dodgy penalty, a silly yellow card or an untimely injury. If fortune goes England's way, we've got enough goals in the side to make inroads.

Not that I'm willing to put money on us winning, mind.

Could not have put that better myself. I was gonna go on about only needing 4 wins from six games to get to the final but you said it all reallu Ivor.

[7_Kewell]

5 years ago if you'd said Carragher would be rated as one of the best in the country, let alone the world you'd have been laughed at. People were saying he shouldn't be playing for Liverpool let alone England.

5 years ago I wouldn't have had Carra in the England team, and now I would.

5 years ago Wayne Rooney was at school. Maybe we should take that into account before letting him back into the first 11?

ROONEY OUT!