Liverpool FC Forum

[Big Niall]

Leon - good points. I disagree a bit though:

At Manure - I could see progress being made, Ronaldo alone was getting a bit better ever year (remember he just did step overs when he arrived)

Chelsea - okay Roman was there a couple of years but Mourinho was a foreign manager coming to a club that hadn't won a league in 50 years and won it his first two seasons.

Arsenal - Wenger won it in his first full season, rebuilt a side for 2002 and has now rebuilt another side that is at least challenging for the title (despite spending less)

Liverpool - haven't had a challenge for the title in four years, are no closer to the top teams than they were when Benitez arrived, damage our chances with Rotation, have had more bad signings than good, play long ball a lot. I don't think the team now is any better than the one Benitez took over, both were good defensively with one outstanding striker (Torres,Owen) and one midfield dynamo (SG).

If we had been 20 points off top in season 1, then 15, then 10, then 5 - I think there'd be few people calling for him to leave. It is even more frustrating when we see Kuyt starting before Crouch, Torres been resting for games a week into the season, Pennant playing on left wing, Kuyt playing on right wing, Lucas playing on left wing (Sunderland), out best strike force (Crouch,Torres) starting just 5 games together etc

[Leonmc0708]

Leon - good points.

Whats new ?

I disagree a bit though:

IT would be a pretty dull forum if we all agreed. . . .

At Manure - I could see progress being made, Ronaldo alone was getting a bit better ever year (remember he just did step overs when he arrived)

I agree, until this season, I could see signs of progress with us, we where third last season despite taking our foot off the gas towards the end, we finished 3rd the seaons before, a point off United in second. Torres looks a great aquisition, Reina is one of the best keepers on the planet, Agger, Alonso, Mashcerano and Crouch have been added to Gerrard and Carra as top players, our reserves are starting to really click, the youngsters brought in proving excellent aquisitions and the youth set up looking like its threatening to give us a few good players soon enough.

Chelsea - okay Roman was there a couple of years but Mourinho was a foreign manager coming to a club that hadn't won a league in 50 years and won it his first two seasons.

Mourinho is a top top manager, no doubt, but look at his legacy, no youth set up whatsoever. He also had most of the players he used to win the league at the club if memory serves me right.

Arsenal - Wenger won it in his first full season, rebuilt a side for 2002 and has now rebuilt another side that is at least challenging for the title (despite spending less)

He has done it, no doubt, and once again Arsene is a wonderful manager. However he has been given free reign over the club (and rightly so) to the extent that he held sway in teh new stadium move and has been allowed to develop a youth system that has proven worth its weight in gold (so to speak).

Liverpool - haven't had a challenge for the title in four years, are no closer to the top teams than they were when Benitez arrived, damage our chances with Rotation, have had more bad signings than good, play long ball a lot. I don't think the team now is any better than the one Benitez took over, both were good defensively with one outstanding striker (Torres,Owen) and one midfield dynamo (SG).

They are no closer to the top right now, but there are still games to play, lets judge that one a the end of the season. More bad signing than good - cant have that mate:



I would suggest the following where hits:

Mascherano
Arbeloa
Lucas
Torres
Benyoun
Babel
Agger
Crouch
Sissoko
Reina
Garcia
Alonso

The following are impossible to judge as its too early:

Leto
El Zhar
Barragan

The following are the only ones I would describe as bad:

Pennant - not enough goals for a winger
Kuyt - not enough goals for a striker
Morientes - never cut it (but who would have guessed it)

And the following cant possibly be catagorised for the reasons listed:

Voronin - FREE
Itanje - FREE
Aurelio - FREE
Palletta - Bought for £2m sold for £1.5m with a buy back option attached
Bellamy - Bough for £6m sold for £7.5m
Kromkamp - net spend £0 and shipped out sharpish
Gonzalez - Bought for £4.5m sold for £4.2m
Barragan - sold with a buy back clause
Zenden - FREE
Pelligrino - FREE
Josemi - net net £0 spend following Kromkamp sale
Nunez - cost nothing sold for £1.5m

[stmichael]

I don't know why these pundits don't seem to know that to build a strong squad that can win the league title you need time. Especially these days with clubs like United and Chelsea who can spend almost whatever they want on a player. We can't, and haven't been able to up until last summer where we spent some 20 to 26 million on a world class striker we desperately needed.

But how can we compete with those other clubs without taking the time to build up the club again? Arsenal have a great side at the moment but most of those young players everyone seem to admire weren't brought in last summer. Their club had patience with Wenger and his kids, these days this patience pays off. As I mentioned United have had a lot of money for players during the years but that wasn't always the case and Ferguson had to wait 7 years for his first league title while he built a strong squad who unfortunately have been extremely successful. I don't think Rafa will have to wait 7 years, but it will take some time.

Rafa had to do one hell of a job cleaning up the mess from Houllier's last few years and now that job is close to being completed. Then he has to struggle with the two kn#bheads who know f#ck all about football. Of course he has his flaws himself, but he has done a brilliant job with the team if you consider what he has had to work with during his spell at the club. Two major titles in a time where we have competed with clubs both domestic and abroad that have had a lot more to spend on players than we couldn't even dream about. And for this should we just break things up yet again and bring in a new manager and give him a new 3, 4 or 5 years to build what can be a title challenging squad for the season 2012/2013?

[nobybob]

I don't know why these pundits don't seem to know that to build a strong squad that can win the league title you need time. Especially these days with clubs like United and Chelsea who can spend almost whatever they want on a player. We can't, and haven't been able to up until last summer where we spent some 20 to 26 million on a world class striker we desperately needed.

But how can we compete with those other clubs without taking the time to build up the club again? Arsenal have a great side at the moment but most of those young players everyone seem to admire weren't brought in last summer. Their club had patience with Wenger and his kids, these days this patience pays off. As I mentioned United have had a lot of money for players during the years but that wasn't always the case and Ferguson had to wait 7 years for his first league title while he built a strong squad who unfortunately have been extremely successful. I don't think Rafa will have to wait 7 years, but it will take some time.

Rafa had to do one hell of a job cleaning up the mess from Houllier's last few years and now that job is close to being completed. Then he has to struggle with the two kn#bheads who know f#ck all about football. Of course he has his flaws himself, but he has done a brilliant job with the team if you consider what he has had to work with during his spell at the club. Two major titles in a time where we have competed with clubs both domestic and abroad that have had a lot more to spend on players than we couldn't even dream about. And for this should we just break things up yet again and bring in a new manager and give him a new 3, 4 or 5 years to build what can be a title challenging squad for the season 2012/2013?

spot on

[bunglemark2]

I don't know why these pundits don't seem to know that to build a strong squad that can win the league title you need time. Especially these days with clubs like United and Chelsea who can spend almost whatever they want on a player. We can't, and haven't been able to up until last summer where we spent some 20 to 26 million on a world class striker we desperately needed.

But how can we compete with those other clubs without taking the time to build up the club again? Arsenal have a great side at the moment but most of those young players everyone seem to admire weren't brought in last summer. Their club had patience with Wenger and his kids, these days this patience pays off. As I mentioned United have had a lot of money for players during the years but that wasn't always the case and Ferguson had to wait 7 years for his first league title while he built a strong squad who unfortunately have been extremely successful. I don't think Rafa will have to wait 7 years, but it will take some time.

Rafa had to do one hell of a job cleaning up the mess from Houllier's last few years and now that job is close to being completed. Then he has to struggle with the two kn#bheads who know f#ck all about football. Of course he has his flaws himself, but he has done a brilliant job with the team if you consider what he has had to work with during his spell at the club. Two major titles in a time where we have competed with clubs both domestic and abroad that have had a lot more to spend on players than we couldn't even dream about. And for this should we just break things up yet again and bring in a new manager and give him a new 3, 4 or 5 years to build what can be a title challenging squad for the season 2012/2013?

How many of the kids, signed since Rafa came to power, has made it into the first team ? How many have been given a chance to prove themselves capable of being a success where it counts ?
I can think of 2-3 and even at that, they were thrown into non-event games. Where's the equivalent of Clichy or others at Arsenal etc. - and I hold them up as an example of how to play thoroughly watchable football - in Liverpool ?
Monsieur Wenger seems to have a flair for unearthing these guys, but more importantly, he'll give them a run in the first team...We on the other hand, don't.

[Leonmc0708]

I don't know why these pundits don't seem to know that to build a strong squad that can win the league title you need time. Especially these days with clubs like United and Chelsea who can spend almost whatever they want on a player. We can't, and haven't been able to up until last summer where we spent some 20 to 26 million on a world class striker we desperately needed.

But how can we compete with those other clubs without taking the time to build up the club again? Arsenal have a great side at the moment but most of those young players everyone seem to admire weren't brought in last summer. Their club had patience with Wenger and his kids, these days this patience pays off. As I mentioned United have had a lot of money for players during the years but that wasn't always the case and Ferguson had to wait 7 years for his first league title while he built a strong squad who unfortunately have been extremely successful. I don't think Rafa will have to wait 7 years, but it will take some time.

Rafa had to do one hell of a job cleaning up the mess from Houllier's last few years and now that job is close to being completed. Then he has to struggle with the two kn#bheads who know f#ck all about football. Of course he has his flaws himself, but he has done a brilliant job with the team if you consider what he has had to work with during his spell at the club. Two major titles in a time where we have competed with clubs both domestic and abroad that have had a lot more to spend on players than we couldn't even dream about. And for this should we just break things up yet again and bring in a new manager and give him a new 3, 4 or 5 years to build what can be a title challenging squad for the season 2012/2013?

How many of the kids, signed since Rafa came to power, has made it into the first team ? How many have been given a chance to prove themselves capable of being a success where it counts ?
I can think of 2-3 and even at that, they were thrown into non-event games. Where's the equivalent of Clichy or others at Arsenal etc. - and I hold them up as an example of how to play thoroughly watchable football - in Liverpool ?
Monsieur Wenger seems to have a flair for unearthing these guys, but more importantly, he'll give them a run in the first team...We on the other hand, don't.

None of those players Rafa brough in though !!

Wener has been brining htese kids in for the last ten years.

Get real.

Disclaimer - I am not saying Rafa is untoughable - just disagreeing with this point before anyone starts catagorising me again.

[stmichael]

I don't know why these pundits don't seem to know that to build a strong squad that can win the league title you need time. Especially these days with clubs like United and Chelsea who can spend almost whatever they want on a player. We can't, and haven't been able to up until last summer where we spent some 20 to 26 million on a world class striker we desperately needed.

But how can we compete with those other clubs without taking the time to build up the club again? Arsenal have a great side at the moment but most of those young players everyone seem to admire weren't brought in last summer. Their club had patience with Wenger and his kids, these days this patience pays off. As I mentioned United have had a lot of money for players during the years but that wasn't always the case and Ferguson had to wait 7 years for his first league title while he built a strong squad who unfortunately have been extremely successful. I don't think Rafa will have to wait 7 years, but it will take some time.

Rafa had to do one hell of a job cleaning up the mess from Houllier's last few years and now that job is close to being completed. Then he has to struggle with the two kn#bheads who know f#ck all about football. Of course he has his flaws himself, but he has done a brilliant job with the team if you consider what he has had to work with during his spell at the club. Two major titles in a time where we have competed with clubs both domestic and abroad that have had a lot more to spend on players than we couldn't even dream about. And for this should we just break things up yet again and bring in a new manager and give him a new 3, 4 or 5 years to build what can be a title challenging squad for the season 2012/2013?

How many of the kids, signed since Rafa came to power, has made it into the first team ? How many have been given a chance to prove themselves capable of being a success where it counts ?
I can think of 2-3 and even at that, they were thrown into non-event games. Where's the equivalent of Clichy or others at Arsenal etc. - and I hold them up as an example of how to play thoroughly watchable football - in Liverpool ?
Monsieur Wenger seems to have a flair for unearthing these guys, but more importantly, he'll give them a run in the first team...We on the other hand, don't.

How many of the "kids" have made it at United in the past 3-4 years. Their best kid, Rossi was deemed not good enough and Pique has played about two games all season. Jonny Evans and Phil Bardsley are out on loan at Sunderland and there's countless others out on loan. Chelsea have brought through hardly anybody since John Terry apart from Scott Sinclair. Arsenal really are an exception to the rule as their policy is completely different to that of any other club.

The thing is, it really is hard to break into that group of winners. You have a small group of three who have monopolised it. Two of them are managers who have been backed by their board through dry periods and the othere one was backed with gazillians of roubles.

Now, it is obvious we don't have the latter, even if DIC were to come in, so we have to look at the former. Nothing I have seen makes me think that Rafa shouldn't be given time to finish what he has started. We have a quality core of talented, young players. We are attracting very promising youngsters. I am not expecting them all to turn out to be gems, but I think we are in far better shape in footballing terms than we were when Rafa started here. I hope we see the benefit of this in a few years. Two CL finals and an FA Cup win is plenty to be getting on with while this work in progress develops. You say you see no signs, but can you seriously say that you would have seen signs at the start of Fergies reign? You would have bunged him out long before he achieved the small success he did after a few years.

Rafa lives for Liverpool. I believe he is the right man for the job and should be allowed to get on with his job without interference from the board. Rafa is a clever man, who will learn from his mistakes and take us forward. I truly believe this.

[account deleted by request]

Firstly I must say do love the way people who are Rafa supporters/apologists pick their targets for comparison. If it's not Shankly, it's Wenger or Ferguson. Given our record in the League under Rafa I'd be sticking with the Souness's or the Bruce Rioch's of this World if it was me but there you go.

That said, the way I see it if we're making a comparison with Wenger over the last four years and Rafa is this. Firstly, Rafa has rebuilt a team in Premiership terms which finished fourth the season before he arrived, into a team which if it pulls it's finger out of it's erse has got about an even money chance of finishing fourth this season as well. This has been done at considerable expense, and all the while I would guess that for the vast majority of his tenure he has had within his first choice team (if there is such a thing) Gerrard, Carragher, Finnan, Riise and to a lesser extent Kewell and Hyppia. There may be others but I'm no statistician.

Wenger, if we really must make the comparison (and once again I'm amazed that people who like Rafa choose this particular battleground) had a team which the season before Rafa came won the Premiership. They won it without losing a game as it happens, and in the vast majority of games the team was largely unchanged (he doesn't go an awful lot for Rafa style doesn't the Arsenal manager). Now from memory (and I'm not going to spend an awful lot of time on this, if I can't remember them then feck it) they had Seaman in goal, Lauren, Sol Campbell, Keown, Ashley Cole, Vierra, Pires, Ljundberg, (fecked if I can remember the other central midfielder) Henry and Bergkamp. It was just about as good a team as I've seen in English domestic football anyway and I include our fantastic teams in that as well.

Now in the time Rafa has been rebuilding a team whilst keeping Gerrard and Carragher as the fulcrum of his side, Wenger has rebuilt the whole unit from top to bottom. During that period he did reach a Champions League final where they lost to a very good Barcelona team, and I'm not sure but I've a feeling they won the FA Cup as well. They didn't though win the Champions League like we did, and we did finish third to their fourth in two seasons. If we look at what we have and where we are now though, surely the sensible comparisons end there? Wenger has built from scratch a young team which is in severe danger of winning the Premiershipand has spent a fraction of what we have in the process.

Someone once said that Wengers methods on team selection are "stuck in the nineties". I'm not sure about that. I think the comparison with any manager to be perfectly honest and the Frenchman in terms of picking up players for nothing and moulding them into an exiting little team is pointless. It's probably best we just accept that he has his own way of doing things and in his particular sphere he is a bit of a one off. Rafa doesn't look too good in direct comparison, but then again not that many managers do I wouldn't have thought.

a few FACTS borrowed from lando concerning rafa and wengers transers

Posted: June 25 2007,18:09

For Arsenal, Wenger has bought (not loaned) 70 players, for a total outlay of £161,890,000. (Recouping £27.3m since the summer of 2004.)

That's an average of £2.3m per player.

Rafa has signed 39 players, for a total outlay of £86,755,000.

That's an average of £2.2m per player. (Recouping £40.53m since his arrival in June 2004.)

Therefore, Wenger has spent £1.9m per player after sales are included, where Rafa has spent £1.2m per player after sales.)

Bearing in mind that the market has changed since 1996, with bigger transfer money being exchanged over recent years, I think it's time to lay this "Wenger is brilliant in the transfer market" to bed.

Rafa has spent less on players, yet won more than that French c*nt. (Obviously only comparing their trophy records from 2004 onwards.)

Now that the golden boy of transfers has been exposed as anything but, can we please concentrate on our team, rather than that wrinkly tw*ts?

Rafa is a match for anyone - fact.

P>S mick here is what you said of rafa and his buying abilities

big mick Posted: June 26 2007,12:34

No, in all seriousness there is absolutely no comparison for me. Benitez annoys me intensely with his ludicrous rotation policy and ultra defensive tactics, but he has done wonders in the transfer market in my opinion.

A few true facts (again borrowed from Lando )

Wenger net spend 37,176,000/12 = £3million net spend per year

Rafa net spend 86,420,000/4 = £21million net spend per year

Bit of a Different perspective now mate?

ps the above figures DON'T include Skrtel or Mascherano

[bunglemark2]

Rafa lives for Liverpool. I believe he is the right man for the job and should be allowed to get on with his job without interference from the board. Rafa is a clever man, who will learn from his mistakes and take us forward. I truly believe this.

How many mistakes, year on year - nay, week on week ! - is a manager allowed to make before he gets the bullet ?
Hell, in my job, if I were to fail to deliver despite monumental spend - such as is the case with Rafa and Liverpool (a big thank you to recent posts for the stats to support this) - that'd be it, finito, bye-bye....
But here's another interesting thing, and I've mentioned it recently in another post : what about hiring a motivational therapist or something ? what about bringing back one of the players from the golden years, making the current crop understand what it means to play for Liverpool ? to bring back the hunger and desire to pull on a red shirt. that's not to say that Liverpool is unique, in that footballers these days are by and large mercenaries (who isn't ? if i was offered 20% more to work elsewhere, i'd be gone like a shot !!) who will play for the highest bidder...
I'd have to say, in the game against Sunderland recently, and in the game against Chelsea, aside from Masch, i couldn't see one player who had that hunger. It almost makes you think that the only players with passion to work for success will be locally born and bred....the flip side of that though is the likes of Ronaldo, Drogba, Adebayor et al, who because they are incredibly skilled at what they do, will win you titles for fun...

I'm rambling a bit, I know....but I don't know how or who is going to get us out of this current rut...

[account deleted by request]

I think the arguements from both sides are becoming ever more desperate and its time a few people on both sides took a step back. Rafa is neither a genius or an idiot, and is trying to do his best(hopefully) for the team. Surely the time to discuss the merits or faults of the manager is at the end of the season.

I don't believe Rafa would get much stick if he wins the CL and gets us 4th place, and I think if he fails to get fourth place or win a cup he will be gone anyway.

Certainly I don't agree with changing the manager part way through a season, especially one with a proven track record in the cups still available for us to win.

Hopefully by the summer the problems with the owners will be sorted, a couple of cups and fourth place will have put us all in a happy mood, a couple of good signings(winger and creative second striker) and we are in line for a title challenge for next season.

Failure and we won't need any discussion, as he will be long gone anyway.

[dawson99]

I think the arguements from both sides are becoming ever more desperate and its time a few people on both sides took a step back. Rafa is neither a genius or an idiot, and is trying to do his best(hopefully) for the team. Surely the time to discuss the merits or faults of the manager is at the end of the season.

I don't believe Rafa would get much stick if he wins the CL and gets us 4th place, and I think if he fails to get fourth place or win a cup he will be gone anyway.

Certainly I don't agree with changing the manager part way through a season, especially one with a proven track record in the cups still available for us to win.

Hopefully by the summer the problems with the owners will be sorted, a couple of cups and fourth place will have put us all in a happy mood, a couple of good signings(winger and creative second striker) and we are in line for a title challenge for next season.

Failure and we won't need any discussion, as he will be long gone anyway.

nice to read we have a voice of reason... wonder if the bickering will stop now? 

[zarababe]

I don't know why these pundits don't seem to know that to build a strong squad that can win the league title you need time. Especially these days with clubs like United and Chelsea who can spend almost whatever they want on a player. We can't, and haven't been able to up until last summer where we spent some 20 to 26 million on a world class striker we desperately needed.

But how can we compete with those other clubs without taking the time to build up the club again? Arsenal have a great side at the moment but most of those young players everyone seem to admire weren't brought in last summer. Their club had patience with Wenger and his kids, these days this patience pays off. As I mentioned United have had a lot of money for players during the years but that wasn't always the case and Ferguson had to wait 7 years for his first league title while he built a strong squad who unfortunately have been extremely successful. I don't think Rafa will have to wait 7 years, but it will take some time.

Rafa had to do one hell of a job cleaning up the mess from Houllier's last few years and now that job is close to being completed. Then he has to struggle with the two kn#bheads who know f#ck all about football. Of course he has his flaws himself, but he has done a brilliant job with the team if you consider what he has had to work with during his spell at the club. Two major titles in a time where we have competed with clubs both domestic and abroad that have had a lot more to spend on players than we couldn't even dream about. And for this should we just break things up yet again and bring in a new manager and give him a new 3, 4 or 5 years to build what can be a title challenging squad for the season 2012/2013?

the tide is a changing - exactly what some of us have been goin on about how can you judge 3.5 years in to a building programme of a decaying insititution? which btw has won two of the 4 coveted prizes during that period, one of them the biggest in club football ?

Others about you nave been carefully replenishing their foundations, ours have been left to ruin, u need to leave the master acrchitect to finish what he has started, then judge 

[JohnBull]

The problems I have with Raffa correspond to the strengths that Maureen showed at Chelsea. He was not afraid to sub a player in the first half hour if the man was a mile off the course. He always played his strongest team. He encouraged an agressive team mentality and despite the success of Grant, Maureen certainly had the team following his every instruction to the letter, with belief.
Raffa obviously thinks about the game more than any manager since Shanks. He lives and breaths Liverpool FC and I honestly believe that he thinks every decision is for the greater good of the team. The problems I have with him all stem around the team selection. The players we have NOW are good enough to see off the top three. We don't need any more signings.
Partnerships have to be formed on the pitch, during Premiership games, not on the training ground. The players on the bench or out of form should be used with the second string team, they would both benefit from the experience. Rotation for the sake of it does nothing for the team. Doesn't prevent injuries, doesn't promote confidence, doesn't create partnerships and doesn't make the players fitter.

I'd love to see Raffa become more of a "Boss". I just cannot imagine him throwing a wobbler and having a go at the players. I don't think it would hurt if he did. I don't understand the loyalty shown to some players and the (in my mind) disloyalty shown to others. (I'm thinking of the Kuyt/Crouch situation).
I can't see LFC having a manager like Maureen. It's just not our style. Raffa with a little bit if him would be perfect. Sometimes I'd love to see him make a decision with his heart and not just his head.

[stmichael]

How is Wengers reserves doing compared to ours, probably a lot better I imagine

Our reserves seem to be breezing through their league and are sitting pretty at the top of the table.
 
I honestly believe Kristian Nemeth should play against Barnsley on Saturday, as should Emilo Insua.

[Kash_Mountain]

Rafa, IMO also needs an assistance (a No 2) to help him.  Someone in the mould of Pako.