Liverpool FC Forum

[Big Niall]

the problem with the argument about the other big 3, is that we are struggling to be ahead of everton,city,villa

[Toffeehater]

If thats the case about anyone winning the FA cup name the last side outside the top 4 that did it.

Everton 95. 1-0 against United, Paul Rideout header. Since then it's been United, Chelsea, Arsenal and ourselves who've won the cup.

Glad I could clear that up 

Thanks GBJH but i knew the answer, was merely making a point 
Winning the FA cup in this era is not something that your Wimbledons and Evertons can do anymore.

WEst ham came within a penalty shoot out so "little clubs" are capable if they get a good draw.

Doesnt matter how close they come Niall they didnt win it.

But it proves that you don't have to be a top 4 to win the cup. Unless you believe that the reason they lost the shoot out was because they aren't top 4 - lets not forget that took a last minute wonder goal to even get us to extra time.

Obviously top 4 have dominated in last decade but when Millwall,Southampton,West Ham can get to a final, it shows it is no sign of progress.

Well of cos u don't expect every final to be a top team vs another top one , doesn't mean that they go to final , they are gonna win it . in the Fa cup and carling cup it's the luck of the draw , if u're lucky u draw a weak team and u go through , Like us in rafa first season in the champions league , we had a very tough route to the final

[Emerald Red]

We are a side unable to compete for the league title, this could be for one of a several reasons, obviously the main one looks to be Benitez' tactics. But I don't think we're capable of competing and we must accept it, and lower our exceptations. We as fans may all be desperate for a league title, but it's going to be at least another 3-4 years before one comes our way with the current state of affairs. Even a new manager isn't the quick fix answer, because we'll still be those 3-4 years behind the top sides. Can we really be patient for those years? I'd like to say I am but I'd be lying. I'm not patient to wait another 4 years without a league title. I expect us to win it every year because that's what I became a customed to in the 70s and 80s.

When Ferguson took over Man Utd he won f#ck all for about 5 years. When Wenger took over he inherited an ageing side but still a pretty good one and he could take his time in rebuilding the side. Another thing that helped Wenger was at the time the only competition he faced was Man Utd. Everybody else was a million miles away from challenging. Newcastle had a brief flurry under Keegan but that was never going to last. It was a flash in the pan. Mourinho took over Chelsea he was given a blank cheque book to just sign whoever he wanted to buy the title. The previous season to that, they scraped into fourth by beating us on the last day of the season and were in danger of going bust.

Those managers are all very good managers and have still done a great job but looking at the job they had to do compared to Rafas then Rafa has had a far harder task. When Rafa took over we were a complete shambles. Our star striker was off and our midfield star Gerrard wanted out as well. The strength of the squad was poor and we were heading absolutely nowhere. Rafa has had to totally rebuild the squad from the starting eleven to the youth squad. He has had to do this on a very limited budget and in a very quick time.

Along the way we have won a Champs League, Fa Cup and Super Cup. We have been beaten finalists in a Champs League final as well as a Carling Cup one. We have managed to get the highest points total in Liverpools Premiership history. You have to look closely at the struggle Rafa has. He is faced with beating three very good teams meaning that ok one of them teams may have an off season but all three wont so you have to be at your best almost every week. He is faced with having a net spend of around £25 million compared to the Champions net spend of around £70 million. He is faced with a manager who has been allowed time to work with his youngsters bringing them through almost hassle free and able to build a new stadium because the owners seem to know what they are doing and now that team are reaping all the benefits.

Lots of people jump on Rafas back because they demand success and they demand it now but to say we are no better off then under Gerard Houllier is a complete joke. From top to bottom we are far stronger and will continue to do so in the future, especially if we can get shut of the current owners.

Good post there, Mick. Very good narrative on perspective.

[Leonmc0708]

Now in the time Rafa has been rebuilding a team whilst keeping Gerrard and Carragher as the fulcrum of his side, Wenger has rebuilt the whole unit from top to bottom. During that period he did reach a Champions League final where they lost to a very good Barcelona team, and I'm not sure but I've a feeling they won the FA Cup as well. They didn't though win the Champions League like we did, and we did finish third to their fourth in two seasons. If we look at what we have and where we are now though, surely the sensible comparisons end there? Wenger has built from scratch a young team which is in severe danger of winning the Premiershipand has spent a fraction of what we have in the process.

Flamini - signed July 2004, Fabregas - signed Sept 2003, Toure - signed February 2002, Senderos - signed December 2002, Van PErsie - signed MAy 2004, Djourou - signed 2003, Almunia - signed July 2004, Bendtner - signed June 2004.

Rafa Benitez became Liverpool manager - June 2004.

How many of the above are in the first team ?

Hardly a fair comparrison now is it ?

Gerrard-Here before Benitez got here.

Carragher-Here before Benitez got here.

Riise-Here before Benitez got here.

Finnan-Here before Benitez got here.

I've only included those players which have been regulars (well as much regulars as you can be while Benitez is the manager) and indeed still are. I could have arguably included Hyppia as well, and more arguably Kewell as well (although at his best I would have thought most would agree he is still our best left sided midfielder) but as they wouldn't figure in a first choice eleven at the moment I've left them out.

You're right in one sense. Given Benitez inherited the services of the best midfielder in the League and still has his services, the comparison probably is unfair but not perhaps in the way you indicate.

I've said in an earlier post, why don't we just leave Wenger out of it? I'm not going to criticise Rafa for spending four times as much as the Arsenal man and building a team which isn't as good, because the Frenchman is a bit of a one off. Lets compare our mananger to people like Martin O Neil, Sven Goran Erikkson,Harry Redknapp and David Moyes. Lets compare our manager to the managers of the clubs we are actually competing with for fourth spot. Lets look at how much they've spent over how much we've spent. lets look at the fact that we were fourth four years ago and if we do really well we'll be fourth again this year. Lets not delude ourselves though here and talk about Bill Shankly and Arsene Wenger or we'll only get ourselves all disappointed.

Disclaimer- I don't sy this to be disloyal, a knee jerker or whatever, and nor do I think we should make Sam Allardyce the manager. I am infact not disclaimerist 

Just highlighted the point you made that I chose to disprove.

nothing more, nothing less.

I never said Rafa was responsible for assemblin our whole team, you implied Wenger had assembled his whole team in the same time Rafa has been here.

[nobybob]

P>S mick here is what you said of rafa and his buying abilities

big mick Posted: June 26 2007,12:34

No, in all seriousness there is absolutely no comparison for me. Benitez annoys me intensely with his ludicrous rotation policy and ultra defensive tactics, but he has done wonders in the transfer market in my opinion.

It's a good quote, and even better if considered in context. Where I said that the was "no comparison", I was talking about between the buys of Houllier and Benitez. No doubt you knew that but chose to omit the fact hoping that by inference it looks like I'm comparing Rafa and Wenger.

I'm flattered that soomebody would take it upon themselves to quote me from seven months ago though, even if it was completely out of context.

The point i was trying to get across mick was not that you think rafa has done better than wenger mate, merely that you felt rafa had done really well in the transfer market. I had no wish to use this out of context or manipulate your words m8 which is why i left in (the ludicrous rotation policy and ultra defensive tactics ) bit. That kind of thing is best left to journalists from two certain so called papers

Anyway mick i must say that after going back through your old post i now have much respect with your views even if i disagree with some of them. Unlike many here who have just jumped on the rafa out bandwagon and will take any opportunity to have a go , your views on the whole seem very CONSISTENT- KNOWLEGEABLE - BALANCED and your opinions seem to change only as the facts known about the issues change, this i feel is the correct approach to take m8. I just wish some of the other members of the anti rafa brigade took this approach as a more sensible debate would thus ensue . But then again maybe the forum would not be as entertaining if this was the case

[Leonmc0708]

next season if rafa is still boss gerrard may as well get this out of the way at the start of the season and tell us at that point we will be involved in a battle for fourth with city, spurs, everton etc

peewee in hates Rafa shocker - read all about it.

leon in changing the facts to have a sly dig shocker.

I have never said I hate rafa, I have however started to dislike him because of his stubborness and naivity. But amazing out of the many posts in here you choose mine, but at least I know why after reading the peewee thread in the special mods section.   

Which one did you read in the mods section ?

[dawson99]

there is a mods section, van dammit thats not fair, is there a dawson section full of portman and hassellhoff?

ok, gerrard said we wont win the league. hes right. he said we need to battle for 4th...hes right.
now we are just repeating what we are saying in about 5 other threads. we all need to chill and confine the rafa bash/defend to one thread... i wish!!!!

[Ciggy]

next season if rafa is still boss gerrard may as well get this out of the way at the start of the season and tell us at that point we will be involved in a battle for fourth with city, spurs, everton etc

peewee in hates Rafa shocker - read all about it.

leon in changing the facts to have a sly dig shocker.

I have never said I hate rafa, I have however started to dislike him because of his stubborness and naivity. But amazing out of the many posts in here you choose mine, but at least I know why after reading the peewee thread in the special mods section.   

Which one did you read in the mods section ?

Link to the MODS section?

[account deleted by request]

[url=http://]Mods section[/url]

Don't click on the link unless you have the permission of a Mod ,or you might read something you arn't supposed to 

[jonnymac1979]

The mods section is so we don't have to PM each other.  It's way easier and a good soundboard platform rather than discussing stuff by PM.  It was introduced in September 2007 if I'm not mistaken. 

I had nothing to do with setting it up as I was on holiday abroad, but whichever mods idea it was to set up should be commended as it has made any communication problems disappear.  Most forums have them, it's not a 'secret section' we never told anyone about.

It's been quite helpful.  Any WUMs can be brought to the attention of the moderators very early for instance, any threads get locked we tell each other about it, any posts deleted we tell each other about it, any members carded etc... and dates when we decide they are able to come back and post are decided.

Peewee, you know can't see it, we know you can't see it, so stop with the mind games. 

However if there is a way you can see it and you don't tell us how you can see it, I'll simply stop your posting rights.  You lose out either way.  So again, stop with the mind games. 

And anyway, it wouldn't take a genius to figure out with your recent behaviour on here that there would be a near certain probability of there being a Peewee thread in the mods section now would there? 

Congratulations, you called our bluff, there's your answer, clever clogs.

[Ace Ventura]

And anyway, it wouldn't take a genius to figure out with your recent behaviour on here that there would be a near certain probability of there being a Peewee thread in the mods section now would there? 

Congratulations, you called our bluff, there's your answer, clever clogs.

Jmac i am confused, what are clever clogs 

I think clogs are a very strange uncomfortable and un practible (is that a word ?)kind of footwear.
I mean you couldnt imagine the scallies running away from the bizzies in them now could you ?

[RedBlood]

the mods section is to make them feel important in their sad little lives loool

[bigmick]

Now in the time Rafa has been rebuilding a team whilst keeping Gerrard and Carragher as the fulcrum of his side, Wenger has rebuilt the whole unit from top to bottom.


Rafa Benitez became Liverpool manager - June 2004.

How many of the above are in the first team ?

Hardly a fair comparrison now is it ?

Gerrard-Here before Benitez got here.

Carragher-Here before Benitez got here.

Riise-Here before Benitez got here.

Finnan-Here before Benitez got here.

I've only included those players which have been regulars (well as much regulars as you can be while Benitez is the manager) and indeed still are. I could have arguably included Hyppia as well, and more arguably Kewell as well (although at his best I would have thought most would agree he is still our best left sided midfielder) but as they wouldn't figure in a first choice eleven at the moment I've left them out.

You're right in one sense. Given Benitez inherited the services of the best midfielder in the League and still has his services, the comparison probably is unfair but not perhaps in the way you indicate.

I've said in an earlier post, why don't we just leave Wenger out of it? I'm not going to criticise Rafa for spending four times as much as the Arsenal man and building a team which isn't as good, because the Frenchman is a bit of a one off. Lets compare our mananger to people like Martin O Neil, Sven Goran Erikkson,Harry Redknapp and David Moyes. Lets compare our manager to the managers of the clubs we are actually competing with for fourth spot. Lets look at how much they've spent over how much we've spent. lets look at the fact that we were fourth four years ago and if we do really well we'll be fourth again this year. Lets not delude ourselves though here and talk about Bill Shankly and Arsene Wenger or we'll only get ourselves all disappointed.

Disclaimer- I don't sy this to be disloyal, a knee jerker or whatever, and nor do I think we should make Sam Allardyce the manager. I am infact not disclaimerist 

Just highlighted the point you made that I chose to disprove.

nothing more, nothing less.

I never said Rafa was responsible for assemblin our whole team, you implied Wenger had assembled his whole team in the same time Rafa has been here.

No I didn't Leon and i supect you know it. I didn't imply he had assembled his whole team in the time Rafa has been here, I simply said he had rebuilt it, which he has.

Now you were the one who alluded to the fact that young players such as Fabregas and Flamini were actually signed months before Rafa arrived (they were hardly first-teamers but I'm certainly not disputing the chronology) and I was merely pointing out that Rafa hasn't had to rebuld his whole team, as a number of his best eleven were also here before he arrived.

I've said it a number of times now, let's stop comparing our manager to Shankly, to Wenger and other manangers of that ilk because it is an unfair comparison in which he is bound to suffer. The people who think that Rafa should be given another couple of seasons and think he is doing a good job (for short, "pro Rafa" people, or "in Rafa we trusters" if you can get over your dislike of labels) had started once again the comparison a couple of pages earlier. It's a ridiculous comparison on all levels and I was merely pointing it out.

Once again, lets compare our mananger to the managers of the teams we are ACTUALLY competing against, not against the managers of teams we think we should be competing against. Lets talk Harry Redknapp, Martin O'Neill, David Moyes and Sven Goran Erikkson. Enough of the Wenger comparisons, they don't work.

[LFC2007]

As a manager in his own right, Rafa is certainly comparable to Wenger.

[bigmick]

As a manager in his own right, Rafa is certainly comparable to Wenger.

Well that's an opinion LFc and you are entitled to it. No doubt in terms of Eurpoean success, Rafa is superior to Wenger. Domestically however, which is what I was talking about when I talked of Wenger rebuilding his team over the last four years there really is absolutely no comparison.

Now I guess somebody will come on and say "but hang on, they do compare. In tha least two years we've finished above them on both occasions" and once again they would be entitled to that view as well .

I'm no statistician though, but I really would be interested to see our mananger compared in terms of transfer funds, time in the job, team/players inherited etc etc etc with the managers which he is actually competing with.

I must say though fair play to the supporters of the manager. In those heady days at the start of the season where poster after poster came on and said "well I think we'll launch a challenge. For me that means we'll be within 5/6/7/8/9/10/11/12 (take your pick) points of the Champions, then we can press on from there  " who would have thought that we would never ever be involved in the title race, be out of it before it even got started and be in a four way scrap for fourth place? Who would have thought that our points total would be so far off our best under the cuurrent mananger, despite the signing of Torres? That people STILL believe shows incredible faith, and though I totally disagree I am secretly quite impressed by it sometimes.