Footballing philosophy... - The reasons I'm frustrated

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Fo Dne » Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:01 am

The thing with football is there are so many different ways to play the game, none of them guarentee success, some pleasing on the eye, some not so, some good to watch, others frustrating. All managers and teams have their own styles they like, and prefere, all players around the world are suited to different systems more so than others using there own strengths and weaknesses.

Theres alot that can be said about the way Bolton have played over the past 7 years or so, but he fact is that Sam Allardyce at the time, built a side, knew exactly how he wanted it to play and had the right tools to make it work to the extent it did. He played a massive percentage game with big lads and set pieces. That team was designed to win its tackles, headers be a solid outfit and thats exactly what he achieved. Lets face it, football is a game of numbers in all reality, stats are measured in percentages and obviously goals that win you games...

Playing to your strengths and being able to nullyfy the opposition are obviously major factors, I find it laughable when people sit there and think that if you play to your strengths and ignore the opposition they will roll over and die. At Sunday league level you have to take the opposition into consideration, to not do it at professional level is a rediculous statement and something that would end up seeing you take a team as good as Manchester United and finishing 8th or 9th.

Its equally frustrating when people talk about how you have to play "attractive" football to win titles. Its about quality and playing to your strengths, if you have Dean Ashton and Luca Toni upfront then obviously you aren't going to try and play on the counter attack and hit teams on the break all the time. The same if you have Torres and Henry, you aren't going to pump long balls upto them to win knock downs, flicks and hold the ball up.

Now there are alot of common factors that make up good sides. Again its all based on numbers, the better sides all generally have more possession, more shots, more complete tackles, passes, headers won, goals scored, less conceeded. Obviously these aren't rules, but they are in general the way the game goes.

All this sounds obvious people may think... It is. Thats where I think the alot is lost on Benitez as he over complicates to much. I also think we have to many players who don't realise these things and understand the basics of football.

I've always been brought up to play the game as you see it. Granted, I'm not the best player around but I watch professional's at times doing things that I don't think I'd even do. I see players with space infront of them playing square passes or backwards ones instead of trying to turn and run into the space, I see players shooting when they have players infront of them and it being blocked, you can't kick a ball through someone, players who fail to give the ball even when they see the pass or fail to make the run even when the run is there to be made, they pass, then stand and watch.

Now in football, the number one thing for me is possession. Thats the first ingredient into building a great side. Reading the season before last were built on this and it helped them with an astonishing season after being promoted. Now obviously, this isnt' the be all and end all. Obviously quality of possession is a big factor, but first and foremost, if you have the ball, the other team can't score (unless someone does something rediculous). Now, possession starts from the goalkeeper. Liverpool have the best keeper on the planet in this aspect, the lads excellent and thinks like an outfield player with his passing and distribution. Its quick, sharp and accurate.

Another thing that helps is continuos movement. The amount of times I see Arbeloa or Kuyt play a pass then stand still is beyond a joke. When a full back plays a pass, he should instandly over lap. Doing this he will give a positive option for a pass or he will occupy another opposition player. Even if he's not going to get the ball he can create space for another player such as a centre back or a striker so that the easy pass or backwards pass is still an option.

Other aspects of possession I feel Liverpool are awful with is quick free kicks, throw ins and corners. Now, playing Sunday league all my life, quick throw ins are the way forward, you can get it back in play early, which gives "dave donkey touch" one hour to get the ball under control and give it back, or he could turn etc etc. Liverpool however seem to take all day. Only Alonso and Torres seem to have the brain to do things quickly, even Gerrard :censored: it up when he tries it. Again, worrying. Quick plays like that can buy you extra possession which can only benefit your team.

The thing with possession is, as I say if you have the ball, you can't be hurt. By starving teams of possession you can tire them out aswell. Also, I believe the more players you have who constantly pass the ball properly the more likely they are to find someone in space.

Alot of moves at Liverpool break down through Kuyt, Babel or Arbeloa and it frustrates team mates greatly. They become demoralised and it filters through a side. Its all well and good having players who can dribble, do this and that, but the fact is if they can't pass a ball then they aren't really much "kop".

Steve Finnan was an example of good possession for Liverpool, not the best player around, but he never wasted the ball which allowed a pretty average player to help fit into a good side without looking out of place. The fact is, some players (like Gerrard) don't always have the ability to open teams up with two or three passes but on the fourth they might have that skill in their locker, if the move breaks down the pass before they get it, then obviously they won't create the chance.

Something else I was once told by a person who knows what he's talking about was, some players are only as good as the ones he's giving the ball to or the ones giving them the ball back. The example I received was Jimmy Bullard which made me realise how good a player that lad was. For example, if you have a player who likes a one-two, tries it and the other player loses possession near his own goal and they then conceed from that who do people blame?

I remember watching Woodgate for Spurs the other week against Chelsea with a mate, Woodgate won the ball, then played an eight yard pass to Lennon, Carragher would have twated the ball out or upfield (which is fine) but Woodgate chose the pass, Lennon the dilly dallied on the ball, took four touches, he had time for two then lost the ball to Essien, he then proceeded to have a go at Woodgate, when the fact was, had Woodgate been passing the ball to Gerrard and not Lennon, then Gerrard would have simply played the pass or held the man off and played a pass, which you would have then gained possession from, now at Sunday league Level, I'd have bollocked Woodgate for that aswell if am honest, but the fact is, in the premier league you shouldn't need to think about passing the ball to someone, you should just be able to it. You shouldn't have to think whether the player you are passing the ball to is good enough to find a man when he receives it.

Moving on to headers. Unfortunately, the stanard of the game is falling in alot of ways and the game is becoming more athletic now than ever so this part of the game seems to be of increasing importance. Long balls and headers are coming more to the front of the game and its something Liverpool are quite poor at. Obviously knock downs can win you possession in area's, you can get lose balls in the box which can create chances. At the other end its not only important to win headers but to direct them. Over the years people don't realise how good Sami was at this. Jamie can win a header but it often falls to the opposition, but Sami's didn't. Again, when Sami used to win his headers, they'd go to a team mate if possible, which started my favourate word again, possession.

Now obviously all this add's up as I say.

What I like is possession football thats not to gung ho but the movement has to be good from all players. I like full backs to overlap after every pass, I like one striker to drop deep and face up, I like a quick striker upfront who has the intelligence to hold the ball up when needed. I like wide players who have quality. One who beats players, but uses the ball well and has patience and intelligence, the other who can cross, pass and keep the ball. I like crosses, but I think they don't represent the best chance of scoring a goal, from the byline though, just inside the area and I believe you then stand a great chance.

I like centre halfs with composure who will pick a pass and make sure a team mate has the ball and most importantly I like central midfielders who can pass with intelligence and give the ball to great players in great positions.

I'd love to go into more detail, but I don't have a tactics board so I'll stop there...

I would like to know what everyone else wants us to do, where we can improve, how we should play and what players would improve us and why...??
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Postby SupitsJonF » Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:20 am

I agree with most of your post but the long ball part isn't true.  The stats show the fewer longballs a team does, the better they are (to a certain point).  The teams that did the fewest long balls were Manchester United, Chelsea, and Arsenal.

Percentage of passes that were long
Reading 21.08%
Birmingham City 20.87%
Middlesbrough 19.19%
Wigan Athletic 18.45%
Derby County 18.45%
Fulham 18.37%
Bolton Wanderers 18.24%
Portsmouth 17.81%
Sunderland 17.63%
Newcastle United 17.37%
Aston Villa 17.33%
Everton 17.27%
West Ham United 17.19%
Liverpool 16.88%
Blackburn Rovers 16.71%
Tottenham Hotspur 15.70%
Manchester City 15.12%
Manchester United 13.86%
Chelsea 12.48%
Arsenal 10.33%
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Postby metalhead » Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:20 am

I would like us to improve in the full back area. We need a full back, as you said, who can overlap and add more help in out attacking side. Ofcourse he needs to know how to track back and defend.

We need an out and out winger, who doesn't need to deliver cross, but to beat a player and keep the ball in possesion and having a great footballing brain and ofcourse score goals. We don't have that, and I doubt Riera is the answer to that, I hope Im wrong.

I agree with you about Carragher hoofing the ball too much, when its more simple is to give a short pass, skrtel does the same as Carragher, but Agger is pretty different when it comes distribution.

they pass, then stand and watch.


Hit the nail in the head there, this worries me alot because there would be lack of movement on the pitch and this restricts our opportunities to have chances. A prime example of a player who passes and move is fabregas! everytime he fabregas finds space infront of  him he passes the ball, makes the run to that space recieves the pass and then pass it again, thats why Arsenal's movment is superb.
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Postby account deleted by request » Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:47 am

Good post Stu. I certainly agree with you about Kuyt interrupting the flow of our football. The number of time he gets the ball and the move breaks down, because of his poor control or his failure to see a forward pass!

If I was the Liverpool manager  :D , I would play with a higher line at the back. When we had Hyypia and Henchoz in their pomp, we could afford to play deep as they won the aerial duels comfortably and by playing with a deep back line it reduced the gaps for forwards to exploit.

We no longer have the luxury of winning most if not all the ball in the air, so we have to eliminate most of this threat by playing with a higher line, with Reina sweeping behind, and also taking more responsibility at set pieces. Our full backs need to work much harder at cutting out crosses as well.

In midfield I would be quite happy with Masch and Gerrard, as I am pretty sure that they will eventually sort things out, especially if some of the creative pressure is taken off Gerrards shoulders by the addition of a top quality creative second striker/attacking midfielder.

I would have liked to see a couple of decent wingers as well, but you can't have everything. Maybe the addition of Riera will give us some width anyway.

Up front with Torres, and Diego/Aguero/Arshevine as the creative player we would have no problem with goals.

As to style of play, I agree with you about possession football and PATIENCE. I had a discussion with Sabre about this a while ago, and we both felt that at times we are too hurried, and play and depend too much on the quick break, rather than steady patient progress up the field. Gerrard is probably the biggest factor/problem in this, as he is always looking for the killer pass or Hollywood ball.However with so many players showing poor control and more likely than not to lose possession anyway, Gerrard is the least of our worries.

Even playing patient possession football you have to make progress, and this is another point that you made about movement. We seem to pass the ball along the back line supposedly waiting for the more advanced players to make runs or space, but too many of our players don't seem to understand how to create space,or perhaps they just accept that eventually the ball is just going to be launched up field 9 times out of 10 anyway. Possibly our defenders just arn't good enough to pick out a pass ?

Certainly this season we have played very static to feet football rather than playing into space for them to run onto.

As for width, its no point creating width if you havent got the players to exploit the gaps properly, we need a player that can play with his back to goal, that knows whats going on behind him, and can turn,time and play the short through pass that creates a chance for a team mate running behind him. I would like to think Keane could do this job....... I would like to think it, but I don't in all honesty.

A good winger would also help in this regard, as our players would obviously spend less time with their backs to goal if the wide player is making ground down the wing.

It was noticable in pre-season that when the youngsters came on we played a faster passing style than when the more experienced players were on the pitch, and with great success too. While I am not advocating bringing in the youngsters, I think we always look at our best when we pass faster and slicker.

Not sure if this answers any of your questions mate, but thats what I would like to see. Higher back line, more patience, more movement , slicker passing and a top quality creative player playing behind Torres. Easy eh :D
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Postby Sabre » Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:28 am

Very good post Stu.

I like the first bits implying that there are not fixed formulas for success, the bit that with Luca Toni or Ashton you won't normally insist on counter attack.

I'd like a clarification about this bit, though

It is. Thats where I think the alot is lost on Benitez as he over complicates to much. I also think we have to many players who don't realise these things and understand the basics of football.


Where do you think Rafa overcomplicates too much? in which details I mean?

And as for your request, I agree posession is important. The next most important thing is to recover the ball as quick as possible, something we did better a couple of seasons ago rather than now. I'd like to recover that defensive edge, as a quick recovery will get you more posession aswell.

To improve posession I think we should look into some of our players' eyes and tell them "you're good enough to play posession football". I do think that a midfield composed by Alonso Mascherano Gerrard and Riera could outplay with passing football most of Spanish and English teams. It's plain wrong to say they're not able to do it. But as someone mentioned a while back, I think S@int (1), meanwhile Gerrard is our captain we'll be pretty direct sometimes.

And it's a shame, because I DO think he's our best player in many positions, including the left. And I do think he has the ability to think and pass at a top level. If you see what I mean, I think Gerrard has the quality to play a passing football even in Barcelona or Madrid, had they signed him. But he just doesn't play that way.

So my simple guidelines:

1.- Have as much as posession as possible
2.- If you lose the ball, recover it quickly.
3.- If you lose the ball, try losing it well up front where you won't be countered, we can't make Mascherano a hero every game, I don't know how many plays he has aborted with hero tackles. But the fact he's making those tackles means our team has been exposed.


(1) Yeh, it was him. I read Stu's post first, the I posted mine, and then I read the other posts. He explains it again in the last post.
Last edited by Sabre on Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby dawson99 » Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:33 am

Corners we are worst at, which is bizarre as we seem to have more corners than any other team. We should just be keeping it simple. pass and move, quick throw ins, a plethera of set pieces for free kicks and just more movement. We've got about 16 coaches now, you think one of them would have notcied what we can all see
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Postby bigmick » Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:09 am

Sabre wrote:And as for your request, I agree posession is important. The next most important thing is to recover the ball as quick as possible, something we did better a couple of seasons ago rather than now.

That would have been around the time that Sissoko was in his pomp Sabes. I maintain he was probably the best ball stealer behind enemy lines in World football at the time. Now that was a central midfield pairing with balance, Sissoko and Alonso.

Would that team beat the team of today I wonder, with Gerrard in that team on the right.
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Postby tubby » Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:36 am

Wow good post Stu. Now if only we had more quality players.
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Postby metalhead » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:39 pm

I've noticed in home games and sometimes in away games is that we tend to keep alot of possession, percentages around 56% but we don't score. We don't have enough quality or depth sometimes to change our pattern of the game, or to execute plan B when needed with our subs (our subs aren't good enough to be honest.)
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Postby metalhead » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:42 pm

bigmick wrote:
Sabre wrote:And as for your request, I agree posession is important. The next most important thing is to recover the ball as quick as possible, something we did better a couple of seasons ago rather than now.

That would have been around the time that Sissoko was in his pomp Sabes. I maintain he was probably the best ball stealer behind enemy lines in World football at the time. Now that was a central midfield pairing with balance, Sissoko and Alonso.

Would that team beat the team of today I wonder, with Gerrard in that team on the right.

I do think the team of 2005-2006 would beat the team today because the old team had alot of players that added solidity with the ball by holding it up, plus we had Kewell back to his best which he offered alot more than kuyt, babel and benayoun in terms of width. Neverthless, Gerrard on the right gave us balance and we started a 13 unbeaten streak.

I think Gerrard needs to go back on the right, in a 4-4-2 system anyway, would definetily be better than sticking kuyt on the right.
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Postby Fo Dne » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:56 pm

bigmick wrote:
Sabre wrote:And as for your request, I agree posession is important. The next most important thing is to recover the ball as quick as possible, something we did better a couple of seasons ago rather than now.

That would have been around the time that Sissoko was in his pomp Sabes. I maintain he was probably the best ball stealer behind enemy lines in World football at the time. Now that was a central midfield pairing with balance, Sissoko and Alonso.

Would that team beat the team of today I wonder, with Gerrard in that team on the right.

That team would :censored: on this team probably by three or four goals on a regular basis the gap is so big. Both player for player and as a balanced team.
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Postby stmichael » Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:15 pm

The thing is, Benitez has a philosophy on the game and he won't change it under any circumstances.

Benitez hasn't really dealt with star players before in his managerial career, apart from Steven Gerrard. Let's go further and say Benitez has been wary of 'flair' players during his career, instead preferring discipline and stability. Aimar at Valencia was often not played, which actually caused a rift between him and the board, prior to his departure.

Similarly, Rafa doesn't appear to care for egos or players who can't fit into his structure. For example, he has always made it very clear to Gerrard that he must fit into the structure of the team and sometimes play out of position. That is actually fair enough, as our transfer dealings haven't exactly always been great in recent times.
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Postby GYBS » Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:28 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
bigmick wrote:
Sabre wrote:And as for your request, I agree posession is important. The next most important thing is to recover the ball as quick as possible, something we did better a couple of seasons ago rather than now.

That would have been around the time that Sissoko was in his pomp Sabes. I maintain he was probably the best ball stealer behind enemy lines in World football at the time. Now that was a central midfield pairing with balance, Sissoko and Alonso.

Would that team beat the team of today I wonder, with Gerrard in that team on the right.

That team would :censored: on this team probably by three or four goals on a regular basis the gap is so big. Both player for player and as a balanced team.

torrres would rip a new :censored: into carra and sami - masher would have sissoko for breakfast . riise would spend all day hitting row z from 40 yards and skittles and agger would have crouch in there back pocket - skittles in the air and agger on the ground.Its amazing how you say the gap is so big when the team we have now is closing in on the front two despite the other teams improving their player quality by millions upon millions.

05-06  ------------08-09

Pepe  ------------  pepe          Draw
Finnan ------------ Arbeloa      Finnan
Carra --------------Carra         Draw
Sami --------------Agger/Skittles Draw
Riise  --------------Dossena       Draw

Gerrard ------------Pennant/Kuyt          Gerrard
Momo-------------- Masher          Masher
Xabi  ---------------Xabi               Draw
Kewell --------------Babel or whoever  Babel

Crouch -------------Torres              Torres
Morentis------------Keane               Keane

Cisse----------------Kuyt                Kuyt


So would like to know how the team back them would stuff the present team by 3/4 goals every game and how you can decide that on 3 games this season so far .
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Postby LegBarnes » Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:37 pm

SupitsJonF wrote:I agree with most of your post but the long ball part isn't true.  The stats show the fewer longballs a team does, the better they are (to a certain point).  The teams that did the fewest long balls were Manchester United, Chelsea, and Arsenal.

Percentage of passes that were long
Reading 21.08%
Birmingham City 20.87%
Middlesbrough 19.19%
Wigan Athletic 18.45%
Derby County 18.45%
Fulham 18.37%
Bolton Wanderers 18.24%
Portsmouth 17.81%
Sunderland 17.63%
Newcastle United 17.37%
Aston Villa 17.33%
Everton 17.27%
West Ham United 17.19%
Liverpool 16.88%
Blackburn Rovers 16.71%
Tottenham Hotspur 15.70%
Manchester City 15.12%
Manchester United 13.86%
Chelsea 12.48%
Arsenal 10.33%

I agree with Fo Dne on this and those stats also show that those teams that did less have players who are better on the ball so like all stats 2 ways to look at them.
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Postby Bad Bob » Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:49 pm

GYBS wrote:Gerrard ------------Pennant/Kuyt          Gerrard
Momo-------------- Masher          Masher
Xabi  ---------------Xabi               Draw
Kewell --------------Babel or whoever  Babel

I think the rest of your comparisons are generally sound, albeit with a few debatable points (Hyypia v. Agger/Skrtel; Cisse v. Kuyt).  I find your midfield comparisons problematic, however.  First there's the fact that Gerrard only makes your 05-06 midfield and not your 08-09 midfield! :D  Then, there's the Kewell v. Babel match-up.  IMO, Kewell wins that head-to-head hands down.  A reasonably fit and firing Kewell was one of the biggest assets we had during that run in.  He provided very critical balance to that midfield, kept fullbacks stretched out wide and chipped in with the goals.  I've not seen anywhere near that same capacity from Babel on the left.  Yes, he's scored some great goals but a lot of those have been as an impact sub coming on and playing up top.  As a LM, he's been more of a liability than anything for me and I'd take the 05-06 Kewell over the Dutchman all day long.

That leads to the question of overall midfield balance because it's not just about individuals but about how they gel as a unit.  I don't think you can argue that the 05-06 midfield quartet of Kewell, Sissoko, Alonso and Gerrard were not a much more coherent force than our current midfield.  In part, that's down to the fact that our current midfield is still recovering form and fitness after a busy summer away, the upheavals of the transfer window and niggling injuries.  Plus, I fully expect Riera will displace Babel at LM, making a comparison meaningless until we see what he provides.  It'll take a lot of work, though, for this current midfield to match the cohesion and quality of the 05-06 vintage.
Last edited by Bad Bob on Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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