Liverpool FC Forum

[fivecups]

Benfica not the best but not the worst .

I can't understand why peoples expectations are so high for Liverpool? Why should we be in the knockout stages of the CL every year? If investment continues as it has been recently we could be nowhere near Europe.

.

well put..

Also, regarding the Premiership in almost anyway you look at it we come in 3rd or 4th best or even less than that so I don't see why we should be guaranteed knockout stage CL football every year especially not with City, Spurs and Villa outspending us at the minute.

We arguably have the 2nd or 3rd best starting 11 in the league.. Probably the 3rd best squad overall after Chelsea and United...

The likes of Tottenham and Mancity for all their spending and improvement are still trying to catch up with us... Lets not forget that we've been outspending pretty much everyone in the past 3 or 4 seasons so 1 season of ManCity splashing out doesnt necessarily constitute them becoming better than us overnight...

Our squad isnt as weak as make it out to be... the likes of Skrtel, Aurelio, Benny, Maxi, Babel.. are still better than most teams have as backup... to me they're all good enough to be atleast backup in a title winning side.. a couple of areas in the starting 11 and/OR the backup squad could be improved but i dont think we're that far behind any side in the league besides maybe Chelsea.

@Ace

I agree with what your saying regarding our squad probably still being 3rd best, but if it is why should we be winning or challenging for the PL and CL every season? Also, with City, Villa and Spurs outspending us in recent seasons and Chelsea, Arsenal and Uniteds future ability to spend likely to be far greater than ours how long are we going to be able to maintain the 3rd best squad in the PL. Without more investment we are only going in one direction.

Not so sure about the spending in recent years though.

Heres some numbers I posted in a different thread:

Interesting German site that estimates the market value of each player at each club. Relates a bit to a thread Crazyhorse started recently. Clearly subjective and open to much disagreement but just trying to put numbers in one place, plenty of other threads for discussion etc.

1. Chelsea FC 388.440.500 £
2. Manchester United 333.082.500 £
3. Liverpool FC 286.001.500 £
4. Arsenal FC 270.560.000 £
5. Manchester City 226.950.000 £
6. Tottenham Hotspur 198.826.000 £
7. FC Everton 168.655.000 £
8. Aston Villa 142.444.500 £

Comparison of PL clubs spend from 2004-current. Amazingly Arsenal maintain a positive balance for this period. Obviously during this time they financed and built a new stadium and will now reap the benefits of that, whilst maintaining their standing as a top club as evidenced by this season. Remarkable. We maintain our usual position of fourth. Figures from transmarkt.com. Again, I wouldn't consider them top quality (I think they may suffer from variation in Euro to sterling values), but they give some measure to compare clubs.


2004-2009/10  Sales   Gross spend   Net Spend
1 MC 96,689,600 359,626,750 -262,937,150
2 CH 160,413,600 416,764,750 -256,351,150
3 TH 181,137,250 375,660,100 -194,522,850
4 LV 184,100,060 313,954,620 -129,854,560
5 AV 52,438,800 160,805,200 -108,366,400
6 MU 176,113,200 263,796,000 -87,682,800
7 AR 154,450,600 135,676,050 18,774,550

Comparison over the past 2 seasons. Interesting shift whereby the more established clubs net spends have been neglible or even negative.

2008-2009/10   Sales   Gross spend   Net Spend
1 MC 48,927,750.00 271,138,500.00 -222,210,750.00
2 AV 23,024,300.00 94,518,000.00 -71,493,700.00
3 TH 99,546,500.00 162,692,000.00 -63,145,500.00
4 CH 42,688,850.00 52,554,500.00 -9,865,650.00
5 LV 86,111,950.00 82,082,999.98 4,028,950.03
6 AR 63,635,000.00 44,633,500.00 19,001,500.00
7 MU 99,159,350.00 64,658,500.00 34,500,850.00

[Zidane]

Some of you lads need to wake up and see the reality of it all, the club isn't what it once was and unless we change owners (or managers if you prefer that) soon it may be much longer than expected to reach that level again.  I really don't get how some people still have this we're Liverpool thing going on, we should be challenging for everything etc etc.  I kind of understand it a bit but really?  It's been a long time since that saying has had any kind of meaning.  You are, like a lot of people say, living in the past.  I'm not trying to offend anyone but we haven't won the league in 20 years, prior to Rafa we hadn't even made a final in the CL in 20 years so while we're at the stage that we are at maybe your expectations of Liverpool are a bit too high and some of ours are a bit more realistic?

I dunno maybe that's just me, either way I'll just support us in anything positive regardless of the situation we may or may not find ourselves in.  Yeah, I know you'll say that you do support Liverpool etc etc you just don't want Rafa as manager so don't bother with posting that, for now Rafa is a part of Liverpool.  I don't believe a change in manager will fix the root of the problem and I think most of you would agree with that so until we change owners I just don't see a change of manager magically fixing everything.  As much as I would like that to be true it just isn't the case.

As for Rafa being elevated to Shankley Paisley etc etc, anyone who really believes that is talking out of their @rse.  Then again anyone who doesn't believe Rafa has had a massive impact on the club is as well, not saying any of you don't but some people talk as if he has done nothing but make Liverpool look like a joke when he's done the exact opposite(barring this season, which has been a nightmare).  Anyway I hope we can win this any kind of silverware will have a positive effect on the club, staff and players.  A win should be celebrated not looked down upon.

Also.. I too believe Rafa may have worn out his welcome this season but I don't really know.  Everytime I jump to that side of the fence we get some people back healthy, we look good again, and I want to believe that we can recapture last years form this season or the next so it has been difficult for me personally.  I want to give him one more season where I can really judge him and this hasn't been the one.

[LFC2007]

1972-1973

2-0 Eintracht Frankfurt (5th)*  (8th)**
6-1 AEK Athens (3rd) (5th)
3-1 FC dynamo (2nd) (6th)
3-0 Dynamo Dresden (3rd) (1st)
(a)2-2 Spurs (6th) (8th)
3-2 Borussia Monchengladbach (3rd) (5th)


1975-1976

3-2 Hibernian (2nd) (3rd)
9-1 Real Sociedad (4th) (8th)
5-1 Slask Wroclaw (3rd) (7th)
2-1 Dynamo Dresden (3rd) (1st)
2-1 Barca (3rd) (2nd)
4-3 Club Brugge (4th) (1st)


2000-2001

1-0 Rapid Bucharest (2nd) (4th)
4-2 Slovan Liberec(8th,qualified as domestic cup winners)(6th)
4-2 Olympiakos (1st) (1st)
2-1 Roma (6th) (1st)
2-0 Porto (2nd) (2nd)
1-0 Barca (2nd) (4th)
5-4 Alaves (6th) (10th)

2009-2010 ?

4-1 Uinrea Urziceni (1st) (6th)
3-1 Lille (5th) (4th)
Benfica (3rd) (1st)
Valencia/Atletico
Hamburg/Liege/Fulham/Wolfsburg

*(Qualified as/domestic placing previous season) **(Finishing position that season/current placing)

[account deleted by request]

good post Zidane although I don't agree with much that you say.

In my opinion once you accept mediocrity it soon becomes the accepted standard rather than the fall back position. A great man once said " “Aim for the sky and you'll reach the ceiling. Aim for the ceiling and you'll stay on the floor.”

We are a big club, even if you only count the trophies we have won in the last twenty years ..... we are still one of the most successful clubs in England. 

I believe we have a team good enough to challenge for the title..... unrealistic ? We challenged last season and maybe if we had been a little more ambitious in some games we might well have won it.

We all want to see trophies back on the menu at Anfield, some of us prefer steak while others are happy with a hamburger, but we are so hungry that even a hamburger will taste good after all this time. What I don't agree with is serving up Hamburger and telling me its steak.

[account deleted by request]

Valencia - 18 points off the top spot
Athletico Madrid - 31 points off the top
Juventus 25 points off the top
Standard Liege - 27 points off the top
Benfica - top
Fulham - 28 points off the top

[aCe']

It's been a long time since that saying has had any kind of meaning.  You are, like a lot of people say, living in the past.  I'm not trying to offend anyone but we haven't won the league in 20 years, prior to Rafa we hadn't even made a final in the CL in 20 years so while we're at the stage that we are at maybe your expectations of Liverpool are a bit too high and some of ours are a bit more realistic?

In the past 5 or so years we've spent more than we ever have.. We've outspent pretty much all our competitors to try and challenge for and win the league..

We've failed to do so, and quite honestly i dont think many (if any) would trust that Rafa has it in him to win us the league anytime soon regardless of the ownership situation or the spending..

Back on topic for a sec, i think we'll need to win this Europa league thing now that our chances of making the top4 are slim at best... better than winning nothing, but still not good enough...

I'd rather we got knocked out of the last 16 stage in the CL than win this thing...

[LFC2007]

Good thing we drew Benfica then. With an illustrious history and presently sit top of their domestic league, we've got a lot to play for.

[KennyisGod....still]

Valencia - 18 points off the top spot
Athletico Madrid - 31 points off the top
Juventus 25 points off the top
Standard Liege - 27 points off the top
Benfica - top
Fulham - 28 points off the top

and at 15 pts off the top we're not exacly settin anythin alight are we? we have a great history that entitles us in the present to the square root of feck all, as things stand we are where we are because thats where we deserve to be. where do all these people get the idea that because 20 years ago we were the greatest team in the world that we should be now purely because......?

the europa league offers us a path to salvage somethin from a dire season, add - potentially - another trophy to th cabinet. regardless of likin the manager or wantin shot of him what reason for not winnin it makes any sense? embarresment? get over yourselves. too good to be in it? really, are we? a mickey mouse cup? maybe, but still more prestigious than the carlin cup, and still a route into european experience for the squad.

i'd rather win the CL, who wouldn't. i'd love to win the PL but we wont be doin that this season. the FA cups out of our grasp and this what we're left with - so, why should we get on our high history laden horse and say its not good enough for Liverpool?

and when it all comes down to it - you dont have to watch if its not good enough for you.

[DrPepe]

imo the uefa is better than either of the domestic trinkets


We won't win the thing , but with the quality of opponents there still could be some crackin games remaining

[Benny The Noon]

That's some great posts from both zidane and kenny - spot guys

As for this ranking rafa alongside the greats if we win ? Who has actually said that ? No one - it's just someone trying to sensastionalise something to try and improve his opinion . This greatclubwas built on winning trophies and never use to turn their noses up at any silverware . Whe the Europa league/Uefa cup may well not be the top trophies it is still a trophy to win and one we shod be proud of winning just like all our other trophies . I for one will be supporting and singing and cheering my head off while we try to keep up our tradition of being the most succesful British club in Europe and one of the most successful clubs in Europe .


Oh and saint the open top bus was for winning all three cups not just the uefa cup

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

Ok then we will just carry on supporting the team till the one's that are slightly embarrassed with our involvement decide to join in (Probably when we make the Final ) but nevertheless I for one am licking my lips at a trip to Hamburg (If I can possibly swing it with the Mrs that is) anyway your support would be much appreciated but no rush in your own sweet time people ..... In the meantime


NOT SAYING WE WILL WIN IT ,BUT IT WOULD BE NICE

Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do
Confucius .......................................................................

[Benny The Noon]

I'm with you all the way mate

[DrPepe]

An excellent and fitting  quote RBG!

[account deleted by request]

Who mentioned that because we were great 20 years ago we have a god given right to win anything ? Cos I certainly haven't. The only ones I have read who have said anything about THAT is you and Zidane. I have said I think we have a great team, a team that has underperformed this season, and a team that should be challenging for the title. Not because of what we achieved 20 years ago , but because we have some great players NOW.

I have already said I want to win it, just don't try telling me that its as prestigous as the UEFA cup was and I am happy.

Times change, cups gain and lose prestige over time. When I started watching football the League cup was less than an egg cup (NONE OF THE TOP SIDES EVEN BOTHERED ENTERING) The FA cup was the main competition and was considered more important than winning the League title. Gradually things changed Europe became more important, so the League became more important and the FA CUP gradually lost prestige as it only ensured entry to secondary European competition. The League cup became an entry to Europe and gained in importance, before gradually fading again. 

In my opinion this is a third tier competition probably sandwiched between the FA cup and the League cup. As I said a big cup for little clubs, a little cup for a team like Liverpool.

Real fans have very low aspirations  :- maybe thats why so many are still happy with Rafa even after the mess he has made of our season.

[LFC2007]

I don't think it's 'low aspirations' on this one. It seems that most people are simply excited at being in with a good chance of winning a pretty decent trophy after what everyone would agree has been a very poor season. It would be a mighty sh!te existence to harp on about how sh!t this season has been while we've got a tie against Benfica (yeah, that p!ss little club from Portugal) to look forward to, wouldn't it? Hopefully,then, the 'bigger picture' debate can f'uck off to another thread.