Down but not out... - How are we placed?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby GYBS » Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:19 pm

bigmick wrote:
GYBS wrote:NO he shouldnt of played cm in the first game

Happy now .

Well I'm happy in that you've given your opinion yes. I don't agree with it obviously, but that's all good.

If you compare our record with Gerrard filling in for Alonso and with anybody else filling in for Alonso, I think it probably indicates that I am right on this one but once again it's just my opinion.

Did he fill in for Xabi last season or did he stay up front with torres while lucas filled in for xabi ? take the 4-1 win agaiinst united as an example ?
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Postby bigmick » Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:21 pm

GYBS wrote:
bigmick wrote:
GYBS wrote:NO he shouldnt of played cm in the first game

Happy now .

Well I'm happy in that you've given your opinion yes. I don't agree with it obviously, but that's all good.

If you compare our record with Gerrard filling in for Alonso and with anybody else filling in for Alonso, I think it probably indicates that I am right on this one but once again it's just my opinion.

Did he fill in for Xabi last season or did he stay up front with torres while lucas filled in for xabi ? take the 4-1 win agaiinst united as an example ?

:laugh: As I dodge to the side and the blanket flutters harmlessly to the ground I'm going to give it an "Ole!".

This is classic blanket throwing behaviour. Asking three totally irrelevent questions in the post.




The question is this. If Gerrard had played in central midfield from game one this season, would we have more points than we've got now, less, or the same?
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Postby Effes » Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:24 pm

By the way - it's a full moon.
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Postby GYBS » Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:24 pm

I dont know Mick and im guessing no one will ever know that answer as it will be all about opinions - considering the overall form of gerrard this season (which has been below his usual standard) then im going to say no we wouldnt be any better off.

You mentioned his record of filling in for xabi and i countered it with an example of last season .
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Postby maguskwt » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:02 am

I thought this would be a good thread but after seeing 2 pages of non-sensical squabbling back and forth I lost interest...  :D
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Postby Kharhaz » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:38 am

Im tired of Rafa. I really am. He is predictable now down to a tee. His 60 odd minute subs, his ludicrous selections, his overall planning of games. Im tired of it. His stubbornness of sticking with one striker (Torres), his spending of the money we have on players that havent solved our problems. Johnson, and as everyone has said, great going forward but lets look at him for what he is. A £17 million pound full back who isnt that great a defender. His man management skills are just awful. For every one player he signs he will lose two as is his style, and what makes it worse, is the second player he loses is the player he has spent a small fortune on. Im tired of having to watch us struggle through so many key matches, then come good when it doesnt matter. Everytime, when we lose through the same ole rotation, not creating enough, and generally not being good enough. Rafas interviews are always the same, we have them by heart now, "We have to improve", "We have to cut out the mistakes" and the constant one "Lets look to the next game".

We are predictable. Any half-decent side can stop our play, its so simple. 2 Defenders on Torres and plant their midfield and attackers in defence. Thats it, we are in trouble. We cant cross, and unless gerrard or torres are on form we cant bloody attack well. The chelsea performance summed it all up for me. For all the time Rafa has been here. He is predictable. He should stop looking at the technology available to him and just use the old fashioned methods. Look for yourself and learn. How many times do you see rafa at other matches? Hardly ever. Scrap the tapes and go back to the old times rafa of using your own eyes to see for yourself.

Im tired of watching the same thing now. Every season during the league campaign. In 5 years, last year rafa did better. This season, another 2 steps back. He has signed a new contract and so will be here a few more years. Many will jump on my back and say its not over yet, yeah it is. We just dont look capable of putting in a constant run. I have run out of faith with rafa. He will not win us number 19 in any time soon. He is too stubborn in his ways to put the club first above his own opinions.
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Postby j-max » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:47 am

Speculations are that the top 4 will be broken this season.I we want to be up there then we need to step up to the space.
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Postby bigmick » Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:54 am

Kharhaz wrote:Im tired of Rafa. I really am. He is predictable now down to a tee. His 60 odd minute subs, his ludicrous selections, his overall planning of games. Im tired of it. His stubbornness of sticking with one striker (Torres), his spending of the money we have on players that havent solved our problems. Johnson, and as everyone has said, great going forward but lets look at him for what he is. A £17 million pound full back who isnt that great a defender. His man management skills are just awful. For every one player he signs he will lose two as is his style, and what makes it worse, is the second player he loses is the player he has spent a small fortune on. Im tired of having to watch us struggle through so many key matches, then come good when it doesnt matter. Everytime, when we lose through the same ole rotation, not creating enough, and generally not being good enough. Rafas interviews are always the same, we have them by heart now, "We have to improve", "We have to cut out the mistakes" and the constant one "Lets look to the next game".

We are predictable. Any half-decent side can stop our play, its so simple. 2 Defenders on Torres and plant their midfield and attackers in defence. Thats it, we are in trouble. We cant cross, and unless gerrard or torres are on form we cant bloody attack well. The chelsea performance summed it all up for me. For all the time Rafa has been here. He is predictable. He should stop looking at the technology available to him and just use the old fashioned methods. Look for yourself and learn. How many times do you see rafa at other matches? Hardly ever. Scrap the tapes and go back to the old times rafa of using your own eyes to see for yourself.

Im tired of watching the same thing now. Every season during the league campaign. In 5 years, last year rafa did better. This season, another 2 steps back. He has signed a new contract and so will be here a few more years. Many will jump on my back and say its not over yet, yeah it is. We just dont look capable of putting in a constant run. I have run out of faith with rafa. He will not win us number 19 in any time soon. He is too stubborn in his ways to put the club first above his own opinions.

Strong words indeed mate, and although I don't agree with all of it it's a well thought out post.

This whole thing about "predictability" I don't really buy to be honest. If anything, I'd quite like it if in selection he was a bit more predictable not less. In his substitutions, while I accept it would be nice if he'd occasionally break from his norm, most managers do generally change it around the hour mark. Same as the "one striker all the time" argument, I think Torres plays best when he's got the run of the line and the results of the system speak for themselves. Equally, I like Johnson as well and think he has done enough already to show he's got a good chance of being worth the fee.

The bit where I do agree is in the style and the man management section. There has been much talk of Masherano's "mistake" against Chelsea, but in fairness he lost the ball in their half FFS. From there they had to pass it four times, Anelka had to get wrong side of Carragher and Drogba had to outmuscle Skrtel. They sliced us open with three or four passes, and if we are going to go on about a "mistake" when we lose the ball in the other teams half players will be scared of expressing themselves.

That's my main general beef with the Rafa style of management. The over analysis of situations can make you reluctant to express yourself IMHO, as well as rendering your team over fearful of the opposition. Preperation and analysis are fine IMHO, but you don't play football matches on blackboards, you play them on grass.

All that said, we are probably only a couple of per cent below where we were last season and it's not a crisis by any means.
Last edited by bigmick on Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby maguskwt » Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:41 am

Kharhaz wrote:Im tired of Rafa. I really am. He is predictable now down to a tee. His 60 odd minute subs, his ludicrous selections, his overall planning of games. Im tired of it. His stubbornness of sticking with one striker (Torres), his spending of the money we have on players that havent solved our problems. Johnson, and as everyone has said, great going forward but lets look at him for what he is. A £17 million pound full back who isnt that great a defender. His man management skills are just awful. For every one player he signs he will lose two as is his style, and what makes it worse, is the second player he loses is the player he has spent a small fortune on. Im tired of having to watch us struggle through so many key matches, then come good when it doesnt matter. Everytime, when we lose through the same ole rotation, not creating enough, and generally not being good enough. Rafas interviews are always the same, we have them by heart now, "We have to improve", "We have to cut out the mistakes" and the constant one "Lets look to the next game".

We are predictable. Any half-decent side can stop our play, its so simple. 2 Defenders on Torres and plant their midfield and attackers in defence. Thats it, we are in trouble. We cant cross, and unless gerrard or torres are on form we cant bloody attack well. The chelsea performance summed it all up for me. For all the time Rafa has been here. He is predictable. He should stop looking at the technology available to him and just use the old fashioned methods. Look for yourself and learn. How many times do you see rafa at other matches? Hardly ever. Scrap the tapes and go back to the old times rafa of using your own eyes to see for yourself.

Im tired of watching the same thing now. Every season during the league campaign. In 5 years, last year rafa did better. This season, another 2 steps back. He has signed a new contract and so will be here a few more years. Many will jump on my back and say its not over yet, yeah it is. We just dont look capable of putting in a constant run. I have run out of faith with rafa. He will not win us number 19 in any time soon. He is too stubborn in his ways to put the club first above his own opinions.

This post shows that you really don't know what you're talking about in your haste to criticise... 50% of your post doesn't make sense...

Stubborness of sticking with one striker? This striker is Torres arguably the best striker in the world. If he's fit you stick with your best players. Criticism on Johnson? He's been so far one of the best performers this season in the team. For every player he signs he will lose two? so far in 5 seasons we've only 'lost' Alonso if you consider anyone that's valuable to the team. And this man management problem with Alonso, it can happen to any manager. Ferguson 'lost' Beckham and didn't win the league for a couple of years. The rest of the players couldn't make it so got shipped out.

After you complain about sticking with one striker then you complain about losing through same old rotation. Talk about contradicting yourself in one post. And not creating enough? Right we also happen to be the team who has scored the most before this weekend, now only surpassed by Arsenal.

Well thought-out post? don't think so...  :laugh:
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Postby Effes » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:45 am

bigmick wrote:Strong words indeed mate, and although I don't agree with all of it it's a well thought out post.

maguskwt wrote:Well thought-out post? don't think so...


As Tarby used to say "We have a difference of opinion here!"  :D

(That was a complete ball-ache to multi-quote)
Last edited by Effes on Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Effes » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:56 am

bigmick wrote:All that said, we are probably only a couple of per cent below where we were last season and it's not a crisis by any means.

It's not a crisis yet Mick - but there are a run of games coming up which will certainly put us to the test.

Our defence is leaking 2 goals per game, away from home.

Our next games:

Saturday, 17 October 2009
Barclays Premier League
Sunderland v Liverpool, 15:00

Tuesday, 20 October 2009
Uefa Champions League
Liverpool v Lyon, Gp E, 19:45

Sunday, 25 October 2009
Barclays Premier League
Liverpool v Man Utd, 14:00

Wednesday, 28 October 2009
Carling Cup
Arsenal v Liverpool, R4, 19:45

Saturday, 31 October 2009
Barclays Premier League
Fulham v Liverpool, 15:00

Wednesday, 4 November 2009
Uefa Champions League
Lyon v Liverpool, Gp E, 19:45


If we come unstuck in these games we could end up like that cop at the end of Usual Suspects;
looking at the mess we're in and realising Rafa has done a Kaizer Soze on us!
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Postby account deleted by request » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:03 am

If I am honest I think we are dead and buried in the league. Yes we still have a lot of games to play and with Agger and Aquaman to come in we will be stronger, but I think the balance is totally wrong. I don't think we have got the right defensive players to play the more expansive game we are playing. Aquaman will no doubt give us different options going forward and hopefully will make us more creative and incisive, but while we are leaking goals like a sieve I just can't see it being enough.

We just seem to have too many flaws in our game at the moment. Why do we persist in Gerrard taking our corners for example. He has show he is a threat when he stays in the area rather than taking the corner , and the number of fkn times he hits the first man when taking corners ....... its just a waste. While at the other end we ALWAYS look vulnerable from set pieces. Again against Chelsea their second goal came from a set piece. Admittedly it wasn't the "usual" but it does show our defensive frailties. 

We really need to solve these problems, and unfortunately as is usual with us I think we will be out of it before we find the solutions.

Sorry to be so negative but maybe its our year for a cup, or maybe Aquaman is as good as we all hope :(
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Postby maguskwt » Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:00 am

If any player is out of form the team will be unbalanced... and right now both carragher and skrtl are out of form and not confident... I'm sure this is only temporary. I would look to incorporate Agger into the backline as quick as possible. Re-establish the partnership between Carra and Agger where they did pretty well in Rafa's third season I believe. When Agger comes back and Aquaman becomes health I believe we have quite a good squad to challenge. I'd rather our weaknesses are exposed early so that rafa can work on them. The key is to win more games then last season. We have now lost more than last season so now the key is really to go for all out wins. This way we can amass more points than last season. The best line up for me would be this:

                         Reina

Johnson     Carragher      Agger    Insua/Arbeloa

                Mascherano

Kuyt/Benayoun          Aquilani        Riera

                  Gerrard
                               Torres


If we wanna go for all out attack go with Benayoun, if we wanna grind our way to a win, go with Kuyt. But pls no more Masch/Lucas partnership. I believe we can still mount a challenge. Our first team is as good as any and if the team is on form we are frightening. Plus Aquilani would be rearing to go. It's always good to have new quality players who are trying to proof themselves. If Aquilani becomes healthy, no more sentimental :censored: with Lucas. He should be out of the starting line up. Lucas as a back-up for Masch and Babel as a back-up for Reira. Nothing more nothing less.
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Postby Sabre » Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:54 am

bigmick wrote:With respect "in some games we should have done, and in some games we didn't need to IMHO" doesn't answer my question at all. It answers a question which I haven't asked.

Here it is again:

Should we have played Gerrard in central midfield FROM GAME ONE this season?

On hindsight yes.

but if you asked me on summer, I would have answered that breaking the partneship Gerrard-Torres wasn't a good idea, and that after years of learning, it was time to test Lucas in the position. Lucas' goal was to prove to valid option for the team when Alonso or Aquilani wasn't available and that's the situation we had at the start of the season. Unfortunately Lucas didn't pass the exam, IMHO.

On the topic thread, winning a league is always difficult and after the two early defeats I saw it impossible. But good news is that we recovered pretty well from that. Losing at Chelsea is something it can happen (meaning out of 4 games you can lose one, draw twice, and win one).

We'll be challenging for the league if we're able to be solid against the Wigans and the Sunderlands.
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Postby Sir Roger » Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:30 pm

s@int wrote:If I am honest I think we are dead and buried in the league. Yes we still have a lot of games to play and with Agger and Aquaman to come in we will be stronger, but I think the balance is totally wrong. I don't think we have got the right defensive players to play the more expansive game we are playing. Aquaman will no doubt give us different options going forward and hopefully will make us more creative and incisive, but while we are leaking goals like a sieve I just can't see it being enough.

We just seem to have too many flaws in our game at the moment. Why do we persist in Gerrard taking our corners for example. He has show he is a threat when he stays in the area rather than taking the corner , and the number of fkn times he hits the first man when taking corners ....... its just a waste. While at the other end we ALWAYS look vulnerable from set pieces. Again against Chelsea their second goal came from a set piece. Admittedly it wasn't the "usual" but it does show our defensive frailties. 

We really need to solve these problems, and unfortunately as is usual with us I think we will be out of it before we find the solutions.

Sorry to be so negative but maybe its our year for a cup, or maybe Aquaman is as good as we all hope :(

The problems could be solved if the decision maker wasnt so stubborn. The Gerrard taking corners issue for one. Why have one of your best attacking players all that far away from the goal. Surely there most be other players, dont forget we are talking about professional £50, 000 pound a week players here, who can take a corner?
The problems you highlighted arent so hard to solve either. It takes the will and belief and an eye to see that theres a problem in the first place
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