Taking a slightly different angle to Mick's 'golden opportunity' thread where we discussed whether last season was the best chance we'll have to win the league given the state of our rivals, I'd like to see what you all think about this take on it.
Our squad for me seems to be coming to a peak. Carragher is 31, Gerrard 29, Kuyt 29 and Aurelio 30. Alonso may not be with us this season and with Mascherano seemingly also unsettled for family reasons, it may not be a great surprise to see him move on next summer. There have already been bids this summer for Reina and Torres and while I hope they stick around for a few more years, there is always the chance one will get homesick and want a move back to Spain.
I think we are one season away from Carra being properly past it and with doubts over the capabilities of Skrtel and Agger I think we are genuinely one season away from having to rebuild the defence, perhaps also one season away from having to rebuild the midfield without probably Alonso this summer and who knows next summer, possibly Mascherano.
Even if Alonso miraculously stays or his replacement is better. Even if Mascherano's wife stops giving him grief and he stays for the rest of his contract, the defence is going to need rebuilding at least. Is this the last season we'll have the Steven Gerrard with that explosive burst of pace and power? He'll be 30 after this season and has had injury problems over years. When Carra goes we don't only need a quality defender to replace him, we'll also need a leader which isn't easy to find.
Forgetting about our rivals and concentrating on us, do you think that winning the league this year is our best chance, simply because the squad will need some restructuring next summer and certain key players will be older?
Do we have to win the league this season?
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by Effes » Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:34 am
It's always a gradual thing when players are getting too old; it's not like they stop
playing immediately.
The only player who's age concerns me is Gerrard's.
How will we cope trying to replace him?
I think he's looked after himself though and I think he can play til 34-35.
Look at Giggs and Scholes.
Carragher has been a great servant to the club; but I can't see too many problems
when he goes.
So no - I certainly dont see this season as our "last chance".
playing immediately.
The only player who's age concerns me is Gerrard's.
How will we cope trying to replace him?
I think he's looked after himself though and I think he can play til 34-35.
Look at Giggs and Scholes.
Carragher has been a great servant to the club; but I can't see too many problems
when he goes.
So no - I certainly dont see this season as our "last chance".
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by Zidane » Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:43 am
Yeah I'm not even worried about losing Carragher, I think Agger/Skrtel will prove they're good enough when that time comes and Stevie should be fine for at least 3 more years, Kuyt is replaceable as is Aurelio other than those guys we have a fairly young squad. I do worry about losing other key players in the future to silly things ala Alonso.
I think we'll be okay for at least 2-3 more seasons and depending on how we build the team during those 3 years we should be okay for the distant future as well.
I think we'll be okay for at least 2-3 more seasons and depending on how we build the team during those 3 years we should be okay for the distant future as well.
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by account deleted by request » Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:45 am
A pleasantly surprising thread opener mate. I was expecting a do we need to win the league or Rafa must go post to be honest 
I agree that this could be our last real chance without massive rebuilding, if not in numbers, in the quality of player we will shortly be looking to replace. I think we have seen with Hyypia that its never easy to replace quality players even when they stick around to aid in the transition.
Sadly I don't believe we will have the funds to bring in ready replacements and may have to spend time grooming players. Hopefully we will get a good few years more out of Gerrard but no doubt his influence will slowly wane as time marches on, while I think we have already seen the first signs of age catching up with Carra, although the loss of Hyypia has IMO speeded up the process. If Agger could stay injury free for a prolonged period it would certainly help.
Personally I don't think Skrtel is quite good enough and I think we will be looking to bring in a little better quality, but as others have said its not the major problem that eventually replacing Gerrard will prove.
I agree that this could be our last real chance without massive rebuilding, if not in numbers, in the quality of player we will shortly be looking to replace. I think we have seen with Hyypia that its never easy to replace quality players even when they stick around to aid in the transition.
Sadly I don't believe we will have the funds to bring in ready replacements and may have to spend time grooming players. Hopefully we will get a good few years more out of Gerrard but no doubt his influence will slowly wane as time marches on, while I think we have already seen the first signs of age catching up with Carra, although the loss of Hyypia has IMO speeded up the process. If Agger could stay injury free for a prolonged period it would certainly help.
Personally I don't think Skrtel is quite good enough and I think we will be looking to bring in a little better quality, but as others have said its not the major problem that eventually replacing Gerrard will prove.
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by LFC2007 » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:35 am
The age of Carra & Gerrard is something I think a lot of people have been concerned about for a while. For the loss of their undoubted abilities, but particularly because they're passionate, local lads and also leaders - albeit of two different styles. I agree with Effes in that I think Gerrard has the natural fitness to play well into his 30s, so the challenge of replacing him is a longer-term issue that will be settled in 5/6 years. How we manage that change though could be pivotal to our future such is his importance to us, and so we should be looking to commence that now, if it hasn't already begun. That's because it's about now that we have to be looking to our ressies and youth team to - ideally - maintain the local or British connection, but more than that is to replace the passion for the club the two of them have shown. If those types of players can come from our own ranks there will be a stronger connection with the fans; a stronger affiliation to the club. If they can't be found within our own ranks, they'll have to imported - so long as they're capable and driven, it doesn't really matter. To find the right combination of those elements will be very difficult in the kind of avaricious culture we see in football these days.
Realistically, I think it's more likely we'll have to adapt to the loss of Gerrard, you just can't directly replace players of his calibre, with his passion and local connection. Maybe that will mean improving ourselves in other areas, it's hard to tell as there's too much that can happen in that time to have any sensible idea of how it might pan out. I'd only say it ought to figure on our long-term agenda.
Carragher's situation I think is one that we can look at and realistically say we need to act soon. I think there's a good chance after this season he'll be close to being past it, before eventually figuring in a similar sort of capacity to Hyypia of the past two seasons; the guy to help the newbies along and fill in when required. How, who and when we sign a proper CB is again hard to tell. We could do it this window but it would probably cost a fair whack (I'd go in Micah Richards if at all poss), or we could sign short-term experienced cover in someone like Distin. Depends on the market and our financial position.
Kuyt's one we needn't worry about really. We could do with another RW anyway, if not as a first-teamer then as cover. Aurelio too, not one to worry about massively I don't think. Hopefully if he stays fit, we can get enough time out of him before bringing Insua through properly, by which time we might have signed another LB or that German bloke we have in the ressies may live up to his reputation. We've got time on our hands with them I think.
The situations of Reina/Torres I wouldn't have thought to be a problem, but it could if we don't at least challenge this season, depending on the sort of challnge, whether we win anything else and their respective familial situations. What we can do is to make it easy for everyone by winning the league, and if we don't then we assess it from there. I would only say that in any realistic situation we're liklely to get big, big money if either became homesick and desired to leave. I don't think that'll happen though, especially not with Torres. Mascherano, I'm less certain of, but he can be replaced more easily I think and as I said, we'd get big money anyway.
So no I don't think we necessarily have to win the league this season in order to avert real problems down the line, but yes there are many ifs and buts at play that could potentially swing one way or the other. Most of which were either known well in advance (LB/CB/RW) allowing us time to sign replacements or cover, or in others where we can be reasonably sure that we're covered by the fees we would be likely to receive if certain players left. I anticipate we'll at least put in a sustained challenge and that we'll at least win something, and that outcome I think will be enough to keep most of our big players, with the possible exception of Masch. In the meantime I think we'll do enough strengthening in this window and the next to keep us ticking along, so as to avoid a session of mass restructuring next season.
Realistically, I think it's more likely we'll have to adapt to the loss of Gerrard, you just can't directly replace players of his calibre, with his passion and local connection. Maybe that will mean improving ourselves in other areas, it's hard to tell as there's too much that can happen in that time to have any sensible idea of how it might pan out. I'd only say it ought to figure on our long-term agenda.
Carragher's situation I think is one that we can look at and realistically say we need to act soon. I think there's a good chance after this season he'll be close to being past it, before eventually figuring in a similar sort of capacity to Hyypia of the past two seasons; the guy to help the newbies along and fill in when required. How, who and when we sign a proper CB is again hard to tell. We could do it this window but it would probably cost a fair whack (I'd go in Micah Richards if at all poss), or we could sign short-term experienced cover in someone like Distin. Depends on the market and our financial position.
Kuyt's one we needn't worry about really. We could do with another RW anyway, if not as a first-teamer then as cover. Aurelio too, not one to worry about massively I don't think. Hopefully if he stays fit, we can get enough time out of him before bringing Insua through properly, by which time we might have signed another LB or that German bloke we have in the ressies may live up to his reputation. We've got time on our hands with them I think.
The situations of Reina/Torres I wouldn't have thought to be a problem, but it could if we don't at least challenge this season, depending on the sort of challnge, whether we win anything else and their respective familial situations. What we can do is to make it easy for everyone by winning the league, and if we don't then we assess it from there. I would only say that in any realistic situation we're liklely to get big, big money if either became homesick and desired to leave. I don't think that'll happen though, especially not with Torres. Mascherano, I'm less certain of, but he can be replaced more easily I think and as I said, we'd get big money anyway.
So no I don't think we necessarily have to win the league this season in order to avert real problems down the line, but yes there are many ifs and buts at play that could potentially swing one way or the other. Most of which were either known well in advance (LB/CB/RW) allowing us time to sign replacements or cover, or in others where we can be reasonably sure that we're covered by the fees we would be likely to receive if certain players left. I anticipate we'll at least put in a sustained challenge and that we'll at least win something, and that outcome I think will be enough to keep most of our big players, with the possible exception of Masch. In the meantime I think we'll do enough strengthening in this window and the next to keep us ticking along, so as to avoid a session of mass restructuring next season.
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by bigmick » Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:24 am
While I think we could certainly do with winning something, I don't thinks it's last chance saloon for this bunch of players no. I think it's a pivotal season for the manager more than the players to be honest, another trophyless campaign would be just about bearable, but how we actually arrived at that situation is crucial. Should we perish in the cups without reaching a final, and go back to being out of the league early like we have previous to last season, then it could be a hard one to explain away this time. This would be particularly the case if there were obvious reasons for the lack of challenge which could be laid at the managers door, mass rotation, over cautious tactics etc.
As far as the players are concerned, we have probably stuck a year or two onto Gerrards career by moving him forward. He's probably playing in the easiest area on the pitch, out of the cauldron of the centre circle but also short of being kicked to pieces by the centre halves. I've always felt if he slows down a bit he could easily become a centre half or even a sweeper anyway, so providing he has the will there's at least 5 years left in him yet IMHO. As far as the likes of Masherano, Aurelio, Kuyt and the like are concerned, well Masherano and Aurelio are always the types of players you'll miss when they're gone, but good managers reinvent teams, and this what Rafa is going to have to do.
Ferguson is on about his sixth team in his Man Utd tenure, while Wenger is on his third although it's something of a work in progress. It's worth considering that we are by no means on our own in losing one of our better players should Alonso leave. Arsenal for instance have lost whole teams over the last few years, and quite a few members of those teams were much more important and better players than Alonso* (Henri and Viera for example). *At least I think they're more important and better players anyway.
Good managers rebuild the team if players are sold or retire. If Rafa is as good a manager as many fans believe, then he'll have no problem doing the same.
As far as the players are concerned, we have probably stuck a year or two onto Gerrards career by moving him forward. He's probably playing in the easiest area on the pitch, out of the cauldron of the centre circle but also short of being kicked to pieces by the centre halves. I've always felt if he slows down a bit he could easily become a centre half or even a sweeper anyway, so providing he has the will there's at least 5 years left in him yet IMHO. As far as the likes of Masherano, Aurelio, Kuyt and the like are concerned, well Masherano and Aurelio are always the types of players you'll miss when they're gone, but good managers reinvent teams, and this what Rafa is going to have to do.
Ferguson is on about his sixth team in his Man Utd tenure, while Wenger is on his third although it's something of a work in progress. It's worth considering that we are by no means on our own in losing one of our better players should Alonso leave. Arsenal for instance have lost whole teams over the last few years, and quite a few members of those teams were much more important and better players than Alonso* (Henri and Viera for example). *At least I think they're more important and better players anyway.
Good managers rebuild the team if players are sold or retire. If Rafa is as good a manager as many fans believe, then he'll have no problem doing the same.
Last edited by bigmick on Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by Sabre » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:02 am
Forgetting about our rivals and concentrating on us, do you think that winning the league this year is our best chance, simply because the squad will need some restructuring next summer and certain key players will be older?
Not exactly because Carraguer is going to get older, but because this block of players have been mounting and growing and it the time to expect results.
It's the moment to ask the team to win it, and it's a great chance. As for the doubts about Carraguer some of my fellow posters already have made an analysis better than any I could do, but yes, it has been a concern for a while, but I'm not too worried as long as Agger is fit and results are good this season. Agger for me is a quality player, and the future of Liverpool is him I hope. If we win the league, it shouldn't be difficult to attract another top quality CB with the attributes that Agger hasn't, and if he's english the better. Liverpool have to try to have in their ranks the best english CB in the next years
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by tubby » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:44 am
Not sure about winning it but we absolutley must give it 110% at the very least to stand any chance. My main issue with is last season was that we needed to field out best 11 to win games where as Utd had sufficient quality in depth to be able to rotate and still get the results.
With Xabis impending departure someone else may well come in to replace him but that aside does anyone thing we have that strength in depth now or have we just perhaps changed our first 11 around? I suppose if Babel steps up then he can be another option but we really have to make sure we are giving it our all in every game. It's good to win the games against the top 4 but to drop 14 points at home to average teams is pathetic and should not happen this season.
With Xabis impending departure someone else may well come in to replace him but that aside does anyone thing we have that strength in depth now or have we just perhaps changed our first 11 around? I suppose if Babel steps up then he can be another option but we really have to make sure we are giving it our all in every game. It's good to win the games against the top 4 but to drop 14 points at home to average teams is pathetic and should not happen this season.
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by Scottbot » Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:13 am
john craig wrote:Forgetting about our rivals and concentrating on us, do you think that winning the league this year is our best chance, simply because the squad will need some restructuring next summer and certain key players will be older?
I think we are one season away from Carra being properly past it and with doubts over the capabilities of Skrtel and Agger I think we are genuinely one season away from having to rebuild the defence
I don't think we have to win the league this year (that is a tall order in any season), but we do have to challenge as was the case last season. If the team can do that every year for 4-5 years then you fancy they have a good chance of getting the job done at some stage.
Carra and his slightly diminishing performance is an interesting one however, I don't think he is on the way out, I just believe he needs to be playing with another partner to get the best out of him. Carra is at his best playing with an aerially dominant partner such as Sami. Jamie is decent in the air (he's certainly better than Agger + slightly ahead of Skrtel) but he is at his best reading danger, blocking shots, putting his body on the line and barking orders to others. I feel you lose this part of his game the minute you ask him to play the Hyppia role. As good as Agger and Skrtel are, they simply aren't a good fit with Carra. I saw that we were linked with young Turner from Hull last week, now i'm not saying he is nessesarily the answer but is the type of player i'd like to see partner Jamie. A few people have mentioned Richards, would be a brilliant shout for me, he'd learn from Jamie for a year or two and then he'd carry the Scouse defender on for another couple of years. I could see Carra in this liverpool line-up for another 4 years with the right cast around him.
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by roberto green » Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:15 am
I agree that this could well be Carra's last as a mainstay centre back, there was times last season where he was caught out either being too slow to react or silly mistakes that had crept into his game,I think the fact that as he has always put his body on the line in throwing his way in front of shots like Istanbul will surely catch up with him.I think Agger or Skrtyl are good with Carra but I don't think they are a centre partnership together because I think you need a leader out of the pair of them and non are.Maybe someone like Jonathon Woodgate who had a superb season for Spurs last season?
As for the midfield I would rather replace Xabi now than maybe having to replace both Xabi and Mash in one season so the transition isn't to bad when it comes to change both.
The good thing is is I don't think Rafa tends to get it wrong in either of these position in the side when it comes to buying players for these positions
As for the midfield I would rather replace Xabi now than maybe having to replace both Xabi and Mash in one season so the transition isn't to bad when it comes to change both.
The good thing is is I don't think Rafa tends to get it wrong in either of these position in the side when it comes to buying players for these positions
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by Number 9 » Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:37 am
Its our biggest chance,more so than last year because UTD will be weaker without Tevez and Ronaldo!
I dont think we have to win it,but I will be hugely dissapointed if we dont.If we come 2nd again I dont think we are over the hill totally and will need to rebuild the squad in another 5 year plan!
A lot comes down to how much ££ the yanks make available in each transfer window!
This season biggest concern is the defence,like most im concerned about Carra coming to an end soon.
I think we will be OK this year but its a massive season for Skrtel and Agger to show the are upto being first choice when Carra is finished.Both good players IMO,but have not showed so far they are good enough to be first choice in the title winning team we want to be
Saying this we could make excuses for them and say Agger has been in and out of the team and Skrtel has not had the luxury of playing in a settled partnership to build understanding!These though are probably JUST excuses.I dont think anyone could sit there and say if Carra announced his retirement tomorrow they would be happy with those two and confident in them for the season ahead.
If they do rise to it and look good enough we will still need one first team CB at least next year maybe even two,or at least one and someone decent for cover!
On Xabi,hes as good as gone it seems!
A lot of our future depends on what Rafa does with the money he gets for him.If he gets £28 m will he be allowed to spend it all or will the yanks say you have £10m we are taking the rest?Will he spend it on one quality player or 2 we have rarely heard of?
I dont think we have to win the League this year but I reckon we will have a tougher job the season after if we dont..Im sure Wenger will have Arsenal stronger by then,Ancellotti will have found his feet and Fergie will be doing what he usually does..kunt!
I dont think we have to win it,but I will be hugely dissapointed if we dont.If we come 2nd again I dont think we are over the hill totally and will need to rebuild the squad in another 5 year plan!
A lot comes down to how much ££ the yanks make available in each transfer window!
This season biggest concern is the defence,like most im concerned about Carra coming to an end soon.
I think we will be OK this year but its a massive season for Skrtel and Agger to show the are upto being first choice when Carra is finished.Both good players IMO,but have not showed so far they are good enough to be first choice in the title winning team we want to be
Saying this we could make excuses for them and say Agger has been in and out of the team and Skrtel has not had the luxury of playing in a settled partnership to build understanding!These though are probably JUST excuses.I dont think anyone could sit there and say if Carra announced his retirement tomorrow they would be happy with those two and confident in them for the season ahead.
If they do rise to it and look good enough we will still need one first team CB at least next year maybe even two,or at least one and someone decent for cover!
On Xabi,hes as good as gone it seems!
A lot of our future depends on what Rafa does with the money he gets for him.If he gets £28 m will he be allowed to spend it all or will the yanks say you have £10m we are taking the rest?Will he spend it on one quality player or 2 we have rarely heard of?
I dont think we have to win the League this year but I reckon we will have a tougher job the season after if we dont..Im sure Wenger will have Arsenal stronger by then,Ancellotti will have found his feet and Fergie will be doing what he usually does..kunt!
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by bunglemark2 » Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:52 am
Yes, I DO think we have to win the league this year....Too long without one, also-rans, nearly-rans, etc. etc....
The league is wide open this year and we have to take it this year....
The league is wide open this year and we have to take it this year....
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by Igor Zidane » Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:27 pm
Posted on behalf of a fellow pineapple muncher.
Good thread John,
I agree with the sentiments of John and Saint. Our best chance with the players at our disposal of winning the league this year need to be taken. As John has said many will be entering the twighlight of their career soon, and others maybe possibly moving on. So in short the answer is yes!
However, after six years of building a side and not winning the league the inevitable question will pop up.
Do we give Rafa another chance to re-build a squad to challenge for the league? People might be more patient if it was Wenger who had re-built a side from scratch because he'd already won the league. But given the fact we may end Rafa's tenure without winning the league, would it be wiser to bring someone new in to re-build a side and give them a five year plan or whatever?
Good thread John,
I agree with the sentiments of John and Saint. Our best chance with the players at our disposal of winning the league this year need to be taken. As John has said many will be entering the twighlight of their career soon, and others maybe possibly moving on. So in short the answer is yes!
However, after six years of building a side and not winning the league the inevitable question will pop up.
Do we give Rafa another chance to re-build a squad to challenge for the league? People might be more patient if it was Wenger who had re-built a side from scratch because he'd already won the league. But given the fact we may end Rafa's tenure without winning the league, would it be wiser to bring someone new in to re-build a side and give them a five year plan or whatever?
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