Liverpool FC Forum

[baldricks_cunning_plan]

People have to realise that you can't have 11 Steven Gerrard's in the side.

Kuyt was fantastic last year despite being a limited footballer. He's the easy target for fans because if Torres misses a sitter it's much easier to blame the ball from Kuyt than lay blame on our number 9. It seems some players can't be criticised, so that means it all falls to those like Dirk.

Without him we'd be much worse off. So he's not a Ronaldo or Messi but how many are? He's proven on numerous occasions he's not gonna work as a centre forward in England but he's proven on just as many, if not more, occasions that he more than pays his worth down the right wing.

I don't view Kuyt as a limited footballer fella ,without him we would have been seriously floundering ,his goals and assists simply cannot be overstated

I know that mate in terms of goals and assists, but I would say he is limited in his footballing ability. His awkwardness on the ball is clear, his control and sometimes passing can be woeful.

I think he himself knows he has limits and works to best of his ability within those limits. He knows he isn't the quickest so will very rarely try and run past his man, he knows he isn't the greatest passer, especially when harried, which is why he'll often drop the ball off to Xabi or Stevie.

But give him a yard out wide and he can put in a decent cross. Or just a yard of space outside the box he can play the clever ball because he is a very clever thinking footballer.

[maguskwt]

cisse got 5 goals in 16 games 4 in the league and 1 in europe so total of 5 in 25 games- the season afterwards he got 7 in 33 games in league , 2 in fa cup , 8 in 14 in europe , so 17 in 58 games . so 73 games he got 22 goals .

22 goals in 43 starts for Cisse.....36 of his appearances were as a sub,mainly because he was coming back after an injury.

so overall they are all on a par with each other and all down to which one brought to the team .

They are on a par? But its well known and accepted that Cisse wasn't good enough for us 

In terms of goals they are on a par - as for cisse i would compare him with babel - great ability and pace and power but lack of football awareness - good enough for us ? as a starter week in week out ? not for me . as a back up - yes as he does score goals , but i dont think i would want him in the squad due to lack of work ethic and his attitude .

work ethic... hard work... gives 200%.. etc etc... means fck all if you dont have the skills... im not talking about Kuyt im just talking in general... some of the best players in the world today, playing for some clubs that win big things, dont have the work ethic and dont work hard according to many....


hard work is overrated, just ask Daws 

that is so wrong... whether you have skills or not you need hard work to help you to get somewhere... there are so many talented young players out there. To make it into the professional leagues you need discipline and hard work as simple as that... did you think Gerrard didn't work hard? did you think Torres didn't work hard? Did you think Carragher didn't work hard? hard work gets you somewhere. Skills without hard work doesn't get you nowhere...

good stuff.. so Cisse, Ibrahimovic (sorry had to throw him in there)..etc all do work hard or else they wouldnt have played at the biggest stages like they did...

They worked hard to get to where they are now... but then they need to continue to work hard and have a good attitude... if gerrard didn't continue to work hard under houllier and rafa he wouldn't have become world class... so too carragher... there are different levels of working hard...

sigh... it is quite difficult to explain the subtleties to those who over generalize...

bottom line is, Cisse despite his goals was shipped out... people werent surprised when we got rid of him because it was obvious he wasnt good enough... his goals did little to save his Liverpool career...

The main argument when most talk about Kuyt nowadays is that he scores goals... i agree, goals are important to win games, and all credit to him for scoring the goals he did, but then again that doesnt mean he's suddenly become an excellent player because he scored 14 goals in a season... As some have pointed out, Alonso never scored and rarely provided assists, yet many saw him as one of our best/most important players regardless... anyone who watches the game rather than look up stats on wikipedia would know that its sometimes hard to measure a players contribution to the side using just goals and assists...

As things stand, Kuyts goals last season meant his position became somewhat safe for this season... if he can do anywhere near as well then dandy. Im not not sure many, if any, would be calling for us to drop him from the side if he does...
If he doesnt, then his contribution to the side will be questioned, just as it was in 07/08... hard work and giving 120% will only get us so far..

we shall wait and see, you know its going to be interesting with Kuyt, one way or the other...

You know what I agree... of course hardwork alone can only get you so far... but hard work is always needed no matter how talented you are... ronaldinho, ronaldo, not even shadows of their former selves once they stopped working hard. Having said that... if I go and play in the PL no matter how hard I try I wouldn't cut it. But come fortunately for us Kuyt's talent is not at an amateur level, he is not as talented as Gerrard, Torres, Xabi, these are all world class. But he is still a dutch international... and with his attitude and work ethic more than makes up for his shortcomings. You can see that he's always a breath of fresh air for us when in some games some of our players are slow and lethargic. So far he fully deserves his place in the starting eleven... if a player like David Silva comes along he might lose this place but still good enough to contribute consistently for the team... nothing to really argue about really...

[redbeergoggles]

People have to realise that you can't have 11 Steven Gerrard's in the side.

Kuyt was fantastic last year despite being a limited footballer. He's the easy target for fans because if Torres misses a sitter it's much easier to blame the ball from Kuyt than lay blame on our number 9. It seems some players can't be criticised, so that means it all falls to those like Dirk.

Without him we'd be much worse off. So he's not a Ronaldo or Messi but how many are? He's proven on numerous occasions he's not gonna work as a centre forward in England but he's proven on just as many, if not more, occasions that he more than pays his worth down the right wing.

I don't view Kuyt as a limited footballer fella ,without him we would have been seriously floundering ,his goals and assists simply cannot be overstated

I know that mate in terms of goals and assists, but I would say he is limited in his footballing ability. His awkwardness on the ball is clear, his control and sometimes passing can be woeful.

I think he himself knows he has limits and works to best of his ability within those limits. He knows he isn't the quickest so will very rarely try and run past his man, he knows he isn't the greatest passer, especially when harried, which is why he'll often drop the ball off to Xabi or Stevie.

But give him a yard out wide and he can put in a decent cross. Or just a yard of space outside the box he can play the clever ball because he is a very clever thinking footballer.

Well I'm going to buck the trend on this one ,I think his first touch and his ability to hold the ball up until other players arrives can be at times exceptional ,whilst Torres lacks this particular trait he is usually forgiven on regular occasions because of his innate ability to constantly find the back of the net ... I mean what more do strikers have to do ? and Torres is currently the best in the world

I like many supporters think Kuyt is invaluable to this team because of his passion ,and that's why real fans will always fight his cause to the hilt ,and that's why after Gerrard,and Carra, Kuyt would be the third name on my team sheet every time , because lets face it no-one is more passionate than Scousers but Kuyt wants to be ,and he shows this even in pointless friendlies and that's what makes him special . 

Liverpool have a handful of players who can come into a game and literally transform a teams display Gerrard ,Torres ,Mascherano  and I would certainly put Kuyt in that bracket .

[Kharhaz]

Well I'm going to buck the trend on this one ,I think his first touch and his ability to hold the ball up until other players arrives can be at times exceptional ,whilst Torres lacks this particular trait he is usually forgiven on regular occasions because of his innate ability to constantly find the back of the net ... I mean what more do strikers have to do ? and Torres is currently the best in the world

I like many supporters think Kuyt is invaluable to this team because of his passion ,and that's why real fans will always fight his cause to the hilt ,and that's why after Gerrard,and Carra, Kuyt would be the third name on my team sheet every time , because lets face it no-one is more passionate than Scousers but Kuyt wants to be ,and he shows this even in pointless friendlies and that's what makes him special . 

Liverpool have a handful of players who can come into a game and literally transform a teams display Gerrard ,Torres ,Mascherano  and I would certainly put Kuyt in that bracket .

I agree with this post, and there is not much I can add. When Kuyt has a bad game, its pointed out. And the critics are there in mass, if Torres or Gerrard has a bad game and lets be fair, there have been a few, its forgiveable. I like Kuyt a lot. He has that no nonsense attitude, like Carragher. That ability to keep going, even when events are against him. He still gives it his all. He keeps running. He keeps trying. And its this quality that grips my admiration of the fella. Many players have a bad game and just give up, its not their day, give up as a bad one. Kuyt has the attitude, its not his day, so lets try MAKE it my day. Love him or loath him, you cannot deny his attitude is top notch.

[Lando_Griffin]

I was taking the p*ss, wasn't I? I said "if we're only counting goals scored from the right, Benayoun is sh*tter than sh*t..." - it's called sarcasm. I understand that you may find that a difficult concept to grapple with, but I would appreciate it if you actually took the time to acknowledge what is an integral  part of the English language.

My point, cretin, was that Kuyt was ridiculed FOR NOT SCORING UP FRONT, so how can your partner in crime suggest that most of his goals were scored from that position? (And how can he then compare someone who seldom plays that position?)

Is it because it fits the anti-Kuyt regime? Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't?

Let me draw you back to my original question, so that you can re-evaluate your buddies' rescue-plan: To paraphrase; "Name me a winger with a better goals-to-game ratio."

Now - knowing that all you "fans" have been so dismissive of Kuyt as a striker in the past, and have mockingly lauded his improved goal ratio from the wing - why, oh why do you feel the need to stick your brown nose into this little debate just to try and belittle me once again?

Answer me that, oh all-seeing all-doing Great One.

If you lot want to butter your muffins with the curd of each others' bitterness - that is your problem. The sooner you accept Kuyt is an important part of our team and he was one of our best performers last season, the sooner this whole sorry state of affairs can be put to bed. It's beyond tiresome.

Come on - say it with me; "Dirk Kuyt is an important and valued member of our 1st team."

Go on - you know you want to...

What an odd reply. You open with the old "it was only sarcasm angle" then you finish it with asking me to "admit" that Kuyt was/is an important and valued member of the first team, despite the fact that I've been saying that consisitently for a long time. In the middle, you go for the customary abuse but "cretin" is fairly mild and no bother in any case.

Anyway, to take the points one at a time.

Yes, sarcasm is a crucial part of the English language and pivotal to humourous banter. I agree.

On the question of Kuyts goals, why don't you just post up the stats of how many he scored up front, and how many he's scored from the right if it's so important? I was only trying to help you out, as I think you were trying to argue the point that Kuyt is a good right midfielder (which he is). Surely it would suit your argument better to discount the front player stuff, because as anyone with any idea at all knows, he wasn't very successful there.

Then you go on to paraphrase with the killer question "name me a winger with a better goals to game ratio". I think you must have forgotten the "except Ronaldo" bit on the end, and assuming you did, based on last season well you've got me because I suspect Dirk was best of the rest.

Then there is "fans" in the old inverted commas thing, the old "if you don't agree with me you're not a real fan" chestnut.  Can't argue with that, nor the "brown nose" thing. And I'm not trying to "belittle" you at all, I posted up a sensible and coherent post which was actually quite supportive of where you were coming from and got called a cretin, so here I'm just answering the points raised.

The bit that surprised me most out of the whole debate was your point that Kuyt was second only to Gerrard in assists. That's an impressive stat, and I can't understand why you didn't introduce it into the debate earlier, I would have even though I don't go a bundle on stats. in many ways, it may even go someway towards explaining why Alonso is house hunting in Madrid right now instead of trying to get fit to win the league in England. Our creative midfielder out-assisted by Dirk on the right means that Rafa is probably on the money in his desire to replace Alonso, and equally on the money in his belief that Xabi's contribution was vastly overstated.

Though your post was odd, it did raise some interesting points as yours generally do.

Just to repeat as well, Dirk is a very important member of our first team. Hope that's cleared that one up.

Get your Alonso digs in whilst you can, Mick - imbeciles have a limited shelf-life.

I'd have thought you might research a bit better, though - Rafa wanted to keep Xabi, you thick ----.

[Lando_Griffin]

What amazes me about some "so called fans" (sorry I couldn't resist) is even though we've just sold Alonso for twice as much as we were hawking him around Europe for 12 months ago, they still don't get the concept of a players value fluctuating. Even though we spunked 8 million quid on keane in about 7 months due to a fluctuation in form/a chronically bad decision to sign him ion the first place, even though we've spunked a large part of the 7 million quid we paid for Dossena, they still don't get it.

It works like this lads. If you buy a striker to score goals, and he proves to be not very good at it, you can take it as red that his value goes down. If he subsequently scores goals and does a decent job at right midfield, his value goes up    If you buy a left back who is useless, his value goes down. If he subsequently plays well at left mid, his value climbs. I ask these people sometimes to post about football, but really I should just leave them in their own little world. Totally, absolutely and completely devoid of any clue whatsoever    .

The hard part is getting them to admit that a player has had a dip in form in the first place mate....... then you have to get them to understand your point 

Both of you: Find a direct quote which shows anyone saying Alonso's form did not dip and that every aspect of his game was in full working order, and put this to bed.

If you can't do that - SHUT THE F*CK UP ABOUT IT.

You laborious pair of wallies.

[Zidane]

Leave it to Dirk to keep things interesting on these forums.. On another note I just saw Xabi and Arbeloa play their first pre season match with Real Madrid it was so weird seeing them with different uniforms.

I might as well throw my two cents into the discussion as well I suppose.. We're going to miss Xabi, people who say his contribution is overated, I dunno what to say.  At the same time I expect our tactics to probably change significantly at least until Aquilani is fit, maybe even after that as well so that may or may not soften the blow of losing him.

As for Kuyt, I still believe some people just don't give him enough credit plain and simple.  Yeah you'll admit he played a big part and had a good season yet won't accept that he is indeed actually a -good- player.  He's an anomaly of a football player that's for sure but if he can repeat last season's production there is no reason to think of replacing him until he starts to get old or something.  Kuyt just looks ugly out there on the pitch but it's effective so it, why complain?  We scored a lot of goals last season with this squad so why keep thinking that we need more attack minded players?  All we need is more depth.

[Penguins]

People have to realise that you can't have 11 Steven Gerrard's in the side.

Kuyt was fantastic last year despite being a limited footballer. He's the easy target for fans because if Torres misses a sitter it's much easier to blame the ball from Kuyt than lay blame on our number 9. It seems some players can't be criticised, so that means it all falls to those like Dirk.

Without him we'd be much worse off. So he's not a Ronaldo or Messi but how many are? He's proven on numerous occasions he's not gonna work as a centre forward in England but he's proven on just as many, if not more, occasions that he more than pays his worth down the right wing.

I don't view Kuyt as a limited footballer fella ,without him we would have been seriously floundering ,his goals and assists simply cannot be overstated

I know that mate in terms of goals and assists, but I would say he is limited in his footballing ability. His awkwardness on the ball is clear, his control and sometimes passing can be woeful.

I think he himself knows he has limits and works to best of his ability within those limits. He knows he isn't the quickest so will very rarely try and run past his man, he knows he isn't the greatest passer, especially when harried, which is why he'll often drop the ball off to Xabi or Stevie.

But give him a yard out wide and he can put in a decent cross. Or just a yard of space outside the box he can play the clever ball because he is a very clever thinking footballer.

Finally an opinion that is fair and reflect the situation without rose-tinted glasses.

Everyone loves Kuyt because the fans can so easily relate to him.
He is vocal, he works very hard and always says the right things and if his form goes bad he says something in the press about how important Torres and Gerrard is.

He can miss sitters and fail to make the simplest of passes but he gets up and tries his very best in the next situation.
If you are a supporter that demand your players to give their all every second on the field Kuyt is your man cause he always does. I can understand why that would make him so revered
but I care more about quality and such than appearances.

PROBLEM IS that makes everyone blind of his limitations!
There are better FOOTBALLERS out there.
I want a winger that can create things, take on the defender, able to use his intelligence. So what if he doesn't work his off 100% of the time. He still brings more to the table overall and can unlock defenses that park the bus. KUYT CAN'T!

[bigmick]

Get your Alonso digs in whilst you can, Mick - imbeciles have a limited shelf-life.

I'd have thought you might research a bit better, though - Rafa wanted to keep Xabi, you thick ----.

I guess the offer of the olive branch fell on deaf ears then 

No matter, I meant what I said.

[bigmick]

Anyway while all that's being pondered, I'd like to say that this "dispute" between me and Lando has gone on too long. Sabre told me off last week for my posting style and he was right. To come back to what Lando said about me trying to "belittle" him, I wasn't and aren't, although I accept that's how it reads sometimes. I don't go for abuse, I tend to fall back when under fire onto what I consider to be my strongest area, which is football and the nuances of it. From there I feel I can defend my postion and myself under fire the best I can, but I haven't done it as well as I'm able.

Anyway, I'm cutting a long story long again, so suffice to say Lando is a genuine Liverpool supporter and I've no doubt a genuine nice fella in the flesh as well, and "belittling" him is the last thing that should be or is on my mind. All genuine Liverpool fans should be allowed on here and should be entitled to have their views respected, and I've not done that always with Lando and I'm sorry for that. Doesn't mean we'll agree on much, but I can debate better and I will. 

I say this and will stick to it regardless of what Lando's response to either it or me is. I'll still disagree, but I'll try and do it better.

This is the post I was referring to by the way, just so we know what I'm on about. The one quoted was my response when you called me a "cretin" (not the one where you called me a "simpleton", that was a different thread) this is the one which came directly after the "cretin" response.  .

The latest post with the insult at the end I'm just going to put down to experience and move on. You should do the same Lando, let it go I think everyone including me is bored to the back teeth with the whole thing.

We don't agree on how good Alonso was. I think he was very good, you think he was better than very good. We don't agree on how good Kuyt is. I think he's a very good right midfielder, you think he's better than a very good right midfielder.

On Alonso's form "dip", we disagree on the reasons behind it.

It's all good.

[heimdall]

cisse got 5 goals in 16 games 4 in the league and 1 in europe so total of 5 in 25 games- the season afterwards he got 7 in 33 games in league , 2 in fa cup , 8 in 14 in europe , so 17 in 58 games . so 73 games he got 22 goals .

22 goals in 43 starts for Cisse.....36 of his appearances were as a sub,mainly because he was coming back after an injury.

so overall they are all on a par with each other and all down to which one brought to the team .

They are on a par? But its well known and accepted that Cisse wasn't good enough for us 

In terms of goals they are on a par - as for cisse i would compare him with babel - great ability and pace and power but lack of football awareness - good enough for us ? as a starter week in week out ? not for me . as a back up - yes as he does score goals , but i dont think i would want him in the squad due to lack of work ethic and his attitude .

work ethic... hard work... gives 200%.. etc etc... means fck all if you dont have the skills... im not talking about Kuyt im just talking in general... some of the best players in the world today, playing for some clubs that win big things, dont have the work ethic and dont work hard according to many....


hard work is overrated, just ask Daws 

that is so wrong... whether you have skills or not you need hard work to help you to get somewhere... there are so many talented young players out there. To make it into the professional leagues you need discipline and hard work as simple as that... did you think Gerrard didn't work hard? did you think Torres didn't work hard? Did you think Carragher didn't work hard? hard work gets you somewhere. Skills without hard work doesn't get you nowhere...

good stuff.. so Cisse, Ibrahimovic (sorry had to throw him in there)..etc all do work hard or else they wouldnt have played at the biggest stages like they did...

They worked hard to get to where they are now... but then they need to continue to work hard and have a good attitude... if gerrard didn't continue to work hard under houllier and rafa he wouldn't have become world class... so too carragher... there are different levels of working hard...

sigh... it is quite difficult to explain the subtleties to those who over generalize...

Yeah cause Ibrahimovitch's career is really on the slide now isn't it. It is clear that some players have a much better work ethic than others, that is exactly the same in the real world.

[heimdall]

People have to realise that you can't have 11 Steven Gerrard's in the side.

Kuyt was fantastic last year despite being a limited footballer. He's the easy target for fans because if Torres misses a sitter it's much easier to blame the ball from Kuyt than lay blame on our number 9. It seems some players can't be criticised, so that means it all falls to those like Dirk.

Without him we'd be much worse off. So he's not a Ronaldo or Messi but how many are? He's proven on numerous occasions he's not gonna work as a centre forward in England but he's proven on just as many, if not more, occasions that he more than pays his worth down the right wing.

I don't view Kuyt as a limited footballer fella ,without him we would have been seriously floundering ,his goals and assists simply cannot be overstated

Oh I think they can be overstated, I think this thread has proved that some people massively overstate them, "as important to the team as Torres and Gerrard".

[heimdall]

Anyway while all that's being pondered, I'd like to say that this "dispute" between me and Lando has gone on too long. Sabre told me off last week for my posting style and he was right. To come back to what Lando said about me trying to "belittle" him, I wasn't and aren't, although I accept that's how it reads sometimes. I don't go for abuse, I tend to fall back when under fire onto what I consider to be my strongest area, which is football and the nuances of it. From there I feel I can defend my postion and myself under fire the best I can, but I haven't done it as well as I'm able.

Anyway, I'm cutting a long story long again, so suffice to say Lando is a genuine Liverpool supporter and I've no doubt a genuine nice fella in the flesh as well, and "belittling" him is the last thing that should be or is on my mind. All genuine Liverpool fans should be allowed on here and should be entitled to have their views respected, and I've not done that always with Lando and I'm sorry for that. Doesn't mean we'll agree on much, but I can debate better and I will. 

I say this and will stick to it regardless of what Lando's response to either it or me is. I'll still disagree, but I'll try and do it better.

This is the post I was referring to by the way, just so we know what I'm on about. The one quoted was my response when you called me a "cretin" (not the one where you called me a "simpleton", that was a different thread) this is the one which came directly after the "cretin" response.  .

The latest post with the insult at the end I'm just going to put down to experience and move on. You should do the same Lando, let it go I think everyone including me is bored to the back teeth with the whole thing.

We don't agree on how good Alonso was. I think he was very good, you think he was better than very good. We don't agree on how good Kuyt is. I think he's a very good right midfielder, you think he's better than a very good right midfielder.

On Alonso's form "dip", we disagree on the reasons behind it.

It's all good.

I tell you what though, I'm the only one getting p1ssed off that despite the new rules every other post from Lando is abusive yet once again the mods do absolutely feck all about it!!!

Wouldn't it be amazing if the man who accuses everyone else of stupidity tries to demonstrate some intelligence and maturity himself by actually arguing his case in a grown up manner without resorting to childish vocabulary and vulgarity. Lando I know that you have an opinion and whilst it is almost certainly completely different from mine it would be so nice to see you actually formulate your opinions properly instead of writing one liners and then saying a naughty word!

[maguskwt]

cisse got 5 goals in 16 games 4 in the league and 1 in europe so total of 5 in 25 games- the season afterwards he got 7 in 33 games in league , 2 in fa cup , 8 in 14 in europe , so 17 in 58 games . so 73 games he got 22 goals .

22 goals in 43 starts for Cisse.....36 of his appearances were as a sub,mainly because he was coming back after an injury.

so overall they are all on a par with each other and all down to which one brought to the team .

They are on a par? But its well known and accepted that Cisse wasn't good enough for us 

In terms of goals they are on a par - as for cisse i would compare him with babel - great ability and pace and power but lack of football awareness - good enough for us ? as a starter week in week out ? not for me . as a back up - yes as he does score goals , but i dont think i would want him in the squad due to lack of work ethic and his attitude .

work ethic... hard work... gives 200%.. etc etc... means fck all if you dont have the skills... im not talking about Kuyt im just talking in general... some of the best players in the world today, playing for some clubs that win big things, dont have the work ethic and dont work hard according to many....


hard work is overrated, just ask Daws 

that is so wrong... whether you have skills or not you need hard work to help you to get somewhere... there are so many talented young players out there. To make it into the professional leagues you need discipline and hard work as simple as that... did you think Gerrard didn't work hard? did you think Torres didn't work hard? Did you think Carragher didn't work hard? hard work gets you somewhere. Skills without hard work doesn't get you nowhere...

good stuff.. so Cisse, Ibrahimovic (sorry had to throw him in there)..etc all do work hard or else they wouldnt have played at the biggest stages like they did...

They worked hard to get to where they are now... but then they need to continue to work hard and have a good attitude... if gerrard didn't continue to work hard under houllier and rafa he wouldn't have become world class... so too carragher... there are different levels of working hard...

sigh... it is quite difficult to explain the subtleties to those who over generalize...

Yeah cause Ibrahimovitch's career is really on the slide now isn't it. It is clear that some players have a much better work ethic than others, that is exactly the same in the real world.

*looks left*
*looks right*

who said Ibrahimovic career's on the slide?

anyone?

[heimdall]

cisse got 5 goals in 16 games 4 in the league and 1 in europe so total of 5 in 25 games- the season afterwards he got 7 in 33 games in league , 2 in fa cup , 8 in 14 in europe , so 17 in 58 games . so 73 games he got 22 goals .

22 goals in 43 starts for Cisse.....36 of his appearances were as a sub,mainly because he was coming back after an injury.

so overall they are all on a par with each other and all down to which one brought to the team .

They are on a par? But its well known and accepted that Cisse wasn't good enough for us 

In terms of goals they are on a par - as for cisse i would compare him with babel - great ability and pace and power but lack of football awareness - good enough for us ? as a starter week in week out ? not for me . as a back up - yes as he does score goals , but i dont think i would want him in the squad due to lack of work ethic and his attitude .

work ethic... hard work... gives 200%.. etc etc... means fck all if you dont have the skills... im not talking about Kuyt im just talking in general... some of the best players in the world today, playing for some clubs that win big things, dont have the work ethic and dont work hard according to many....


hard work is overrated, just ask Daws 

that is so wrong... whether you have skills or not you need hard work to help you to get somewhere... there are so many talented young players out there. To make it into the professional leagues you need discipline and hard work as simple as that... did you think Gerrard didn't work hard? did you think Torres didn't work hard? Did you think Carragher didn't work hard? hard work gets you somewhere. Skills without hard work doesn't get you nowhere...

good stuff.. so Cisse, Ibrahimovic (sorry had to throw him in there)..etc all do work hard or else they wouldnt have played at the biggest stages like they did...

They worked hard to get to where they are now... but then they need to continue to work hard and have a good attitude... if gerrard didn't continue to work hard under houllier and rafa he wouldn't have become world class... so too carragher... there are different levels of working hard...

sigh... it is quite difficult to explain the subtleties to those who over generalize...

Yeah cause Ibrahimovitch's career is really on the slide now isn't it. It is clear that some players have a much better work ethic than others, that is exactly the same in the real world.

*looks left*
*looks right*

who said Ibrahimovic career's on the slide?

anyone?

Sorry dude it's what's called sarcasm.