Liverpool FC Forum

[66-1112520797]

Obviously Sabre you like the holding midfielders of Alonso and Carricks style, where I prefer the more orthadox style of a holding mid ala Hamman, Makelalee and Mascha.

You cant hide behind the fact Mascha's playing much better with Gerrard, even Peewee's saying so

[112-1077774096]

even Peewee's saying so

   get your tin hat on mate

[NANNY RED]

[ Mascha has played better alongside Gerrard has than Alonso has ever done in his previous seasons gone by.

Disagree completly with that completly we have been to 2 european cup finals and won one. and an F.A cup final with the pairing of Gerrard and Alonso

[112-1077774096]

[ Mascha has played better alongside Gerrard has than Alonso has ever done in his previous seasons gone by.

Disagree completly with that completly we have been to 2 european cup finals and won one. and an F.A cup final with the pairing of Gerrard and Alonso

i seem to remember mash playing in athens and totally controlling kaka, and its a bit of an unfair argument nanny because we have nothing to compare mash to, whos to say if it was him and not alonso we wouldnt have won more

[account deleted by request]

I just can't believe that anyone would question Mascherano's position in the team after his performances since he came. I think he has had maybe 2 poor games for us since he came and has been M.O.T.M. in about half of his games.

I for one don't question Mascherano's quality. I didn't even question his partnership with Gerrard during the "blip". I like the player a lot.

But the "If Alonso comes back to his game of 2 years ago" used by some posters (more than one) sounds like an old record to me.

Why? because if you read the very posts of the very same people this season, they were acknowledging that there was an improvement compared to last season in the game of Alonso. It's there, it's written. After that he's been injured, so just when he comes back, I wonder if it's fair to come back to the old "he has to recover his game".

Note that I don't find strange this kind of things. I find ok that the level of demand to a player increases through out the years as he gets experience. But it's true that this season Alonso was reported to be playing better, but that has been apparently forgotten after his injury, for some reason.

I know like me that you think we have two great players in Masch and Alonso, but I find it difficult to understand how you can argue that Alonso's form hasn't been below par for the last couple of years.

When was the last time people were raving about a great game by Alonso. Ah but its because people are used to Alonso now, I hear you say  . People are a lot more used to Gerrard and yet people still rave about him is my reply.

Ah but its the unnoticed things that Alonso does you say. It wasn't the unnoticed things that people were raving about in his first season, it was his great passing not some fantasy that only you , Lando and god can see. 

IF Alonso was playing better this season, and Mascherano is still better, as I believe he is, maybe that just shows that our fond memories of Alonso's first season were perhaps enhanced by time rather than his actual ability and performances?

[Red Dotty]

[ Mascha has played better alongside Gerrard has than Alonso has ever done in his previous seasons gone by.

Disagree completly with that completly we have been to 2 european cup finals and won one. and an F.A cup final with the pairing of Gerrard and Alonso

i seem to remember mash playing in athens and totally controlling kaka, and its a bit of an unfair argument nanny because we have nothing to compare mash to, whos to say if it was him and not alonso we wouldnt have won more

All three played and we controlled the whole game i thought. We looked alot stronger than last time we played them but got fecking beaten.

Play all three they are great together

[bigmick]

As far as Micks point about some comparing Alonso to Gerrard and not giving him the credit he deserves. Well im a native Mick and a match going fan but i dont think anyone is saying Alonso is better than Gerrard, you cant compare the two, very different players who each bring something special to the team. Yes he would have got in to any old Liverpool team in central mid but you have to look at the bigger picture aswell with Gerrard the lad is so talented that he can be used out on the right which has been proved, and will still score goals, im not sayin stick him there, but from game to game options are different

Most people aren't saying Alonso is better than Gerrard Nanny, and you're quite right that they are totally different players which are very difficult to compare. However, my reply to the poster who essentially said he didn't care where Gerrard plays as long as Alonso plays in the centre. I also mentioned in my original post lando's long held conviction that Alonso is the most important player at the club and the fact that I don't go along with that.

Funnily enough as far as playing him on the right is concerned, I actually AM saying stick him there. Not only do I think it maximises the sum of our parts as far as midfield players go, but I think that his best position is on the right. Now I know that's a bit out there and not many would agree, but it's a long held opinion that I've had.

The problem of course if we went down that route is that you would then be very likely looking at a central midfield pairing of Masherano and Alonso. Now if Xabi was able to revisit the form of his first season (and Sabre is quite right that some of us sound like a broken record on this, and he's also right in pointing out that the signs were encouraging before his injury this season) then it wouldn't be a problem. You cannot though have Masherano doing what Masherano does, and Alonso doing what Alonso does and within five yards of his partner.

I've been over what I think Alonso needs to do more of many times IMHO to regain the effectiveness of his debut season, and in essence it is show a greater willingness to come out of the pocket in front of the centre halves much more often. His lack of any real pace and mobility makes him very easy to box off if he continually recieves the ball from the same people int he same spaces and never moves out of a 20 yard diameter circle. Even Masherano, an out and out defensive midfielder ventures up and recieves it in between the half way line and the edge of the box on occasions, and uis prepared to carry the ball behind enemy lines if needs be. Xabi was showing more of a willingness before his injury, and if he could regain his very best form I would move Gerrard to the right and play Xabi centrally with Masherano. If not, I fear he may have to rely on the fact that he is Rafa's most trusted player to ensure he gets a game. Purely on merit, he doesn't warrent a place in central midfield if and until Masherano starts to go off the boil somewhat IMHO.

[NANNY RED]

Right ive got a meeting to go to so sorry i cant carry this on

[account deleted by request]

[ Mascha has played better alongside Gerrard has than Alonso has ever done in his previous seasons gone by.

Disagree completly with that completly we have been to 2 european cup finals and won one. and an F.A cup final with the pairing of Gerrard and Alonso

In the first Champs league final we had to bring on reinforcements in the form of Hamann to win it. In the FA cup final we had to bring on reinforcements in the form of Hamann to win it (even with Sissoko on the pitch) Last Champs league final Mascherano was the M.O.M. for us.

[112-1077774096]

Right ive got a meeting to go to so sorry i cant carry this on

yaaaaaaaaaaaay we won, nanny has quit   

[bigmick]

Couple of points here from a very good debate and they're both Saints. Firstly he is absolutely spot on about Alonso's so called "unseen" work. I read my little lad that story "The Emporers new clothes" last week and it reminds me of that. All this sage like "well you really need to know the game to appreciate what he does, the average fan won't see it" doesn't wash with me. I'm not being big headed here but I reckon if I watch a football match I can see most things that go on, and it seems to me that Alonso fills the spaces and reads it just as well now as he did in his first season, I'll even concede marginally better in all probability. What he palpably doesn't do though (and I'm amazed people seriously try and deny this) is have anything like the same influence on games through his passing, his control and his contribution to the attacking effort in general. Now some of that is his own doing IMHO as he has retreated into the pocket too willingly, but most of it is not his fault. It's quite simply that the opposition have worked out how to play him bnetter, to snap at his heels and stop him getting his head up.

The other point I would like to make is about the FA Cup final. Alonso played that day, but I would contest that the captain practically won it for us on his own in truth. He arrived from midfield to score a fantastic goal to equalise, and then scored probably one of the best goals ever seen in an FA Cup final in the dying seconds of normal time to keep us in it. I know who I thought was the most important player at the club that day lets put it that way   

[Sabre]

About Alonso's unsung things. When I used that word, by unsung I mean "football work that doesn't appear in the highlights". And yes, Mascherano has done an excellent work in these unsung tasks.

He doesn't have the height and even not the correct positioning of Alonso, but he compensates it with his INCREDIBLE ability for tackling. It's simply a pleasure to see that player tackling. His attitude is spot on, and he chooses very well when to make a foul, he's Argentinian (experts on this art)

And yes, Mascherano is working behind Gerrard so that Gerrard has more freedom. It's true. But it's also true Alonso does the same role for the team (with his particular features) and wasn't that much appreciated. That's among other things, because people are used to him, yes.

S@int says Gerrard is still loved. But Gerrard is a local lad. And in any team of the world a local lad that happens to be a very good player will be loved unconditionally. People will love players like Gerrard and Carraguer, due to his game, no doubt, but also because factors like loyalty, service to the club, etc. We all like seeing a local lad making a debut in the first team, this is natural.

I haven't doubts that Alonso was much more praised in the first season. Some of the praising I read back then made me *blush* in shame, it was exagerated. But I don't buy he has tracked back as a footballer, nor he has improved marginally. That's bóllocks in my book.  He was a fúcking newbie when he joined Liverpool and he has grown a lot as a footballer. He has done so because he knows the league better and he's been working under great coaching staff in a great club. Denying that is unbelievable in my humble opinion. You can see the progress in his international stage,  he was a satellite player 2 years ago, and now he's a Spain regular player.


I can understand that Mascherano is the new fashionable flavour, but I don't think that to praise Mascherano it's necessary to criticise another player.

[66-1112520797]

I can understand that Mascherano is the new fashionable flavour, but I don't think that to praise Mascherano it's necessary to criticise another player.

I wouldnt say its nessecerily critising, we're comparing the two. Mascha has his own thread and is getting praised alon in that. Here we are comparing, like comparing Kuyt to Torres that is all.

Also you not going to be able to use that word "fashionable" for to long, if his move is made permanent you'll have to think of another word as to why we credit Mascha.

He simply is a brilliant little footballer and I dont think fashion has got anything to do with it.

Its good we have competition for places, I just dont like to see a well organised and compatible partnership broken up just to give someone a game. If it were back in the old days the likes of Xabi and Crouch would have to prove to the manager during training and glimpse's as a sub their well worth their place in the team. Unfortunately with modern day management, players get thrown in and out of the sides more willy nilly these days, even at the expense of the team.

[account deleted by request]

Hopefully no one is saying that Alonso is cr@p, just that Mascherano is slightly the better option with Gerrard. I think Bigmick has hit the nail on the head with his suggestion that teams have sussed out Alonso's playing style, and that because he is slow and not very mobile, he is quite easy to negate by asking a forward to drop back and pressure him. Which may account for his perceived poorer form.

At the end of the day its not what we think or prefer that counts anyway, its up to Rafa, but if I was to choose our best option I would say Mascherano.

[Lando_Griffin]

Good to see our most important player fit again.

Hmmmm .......

Yeah we've really struggled without him havent we Lando ?

How many goals has Mascherano scored this season? In how many games? Also, I find it hilarious how people seem to think that Gerrards improved finishing is in some way down to Mascher`s presence.