Liverpool FC Forum

[JBG]

I have been a Liverpool fan all my life and I grew up with watching the team sweeping all before them in England (Heysel happened the year I started supporting them and so I missed all the great Euro wins). Since 1991 supporting them has been increasingly painful and frustrating, every season being another disappointing false dawn. In the last 18 months I have slowly come around to the conclusion that we are now longer a big club in the modern sense of the word (i.e. regular competitors in the Champions League and Premiership challengers) and that the club is living in the past and something drastic needs to be done.

I have identified the three main reasons behind Liverpool’s downfall and I am interested in what people think.

1. The Heysel Tragedy
I don’t want to go back over that terrible night but the ban from Europe was a major blow to Liverpool. Before AC Milan came on the scene there was a barren spell in Europe where no team dominated, and teams like PSV and Steau Bucharest (hardly European giants) won the European Cup. Had Liverpool been still in the competition I am certain that we would have won 1, if not 2, more European Cups in the late 1980s, as there were no other real challengers to us. The team of 1987/88 were unquestionably the best side in Europe by a long way. Also, if Liverpool had been in European competition when Milan dominated I think it would have strengthened the club as we would have had genuine challengers to our position as kings of Europe. Europe would have generated more money for the club and it would kept us competitive. Complacency set in when we were banned. 

2. Defeat by Wimbledon in the 88 Cup final.
Wimbledon shattered the aura of Liverpool invincibility and their win set the English game back 10 years as it gave hope to a lot of long ball teams in England, such as Millwall, Leeds, Sheff Utd and Oldham, even George Graham’s Arsenal to a certain extent.

3. Appointment of Graeme Souness
Souness was a disaster for Liverpool. He tried to change things too quickly, selling off world class players such as Beardsley and Houghtan, selling Staunton, letting Steve McMahon go too early without replacing him (Michael Thomas was a joke) and dumping Glenn Hysen. Almost all his buys were disasters. If he had kept the Dalglish players plus slowly blooding new players such as Fowler, McMannaman and Mark Wright Liverpool could have dominated the 1990s, rather than UTD. After Souness everything was messed up and Roy Evans had to start from scratch.

I hate to admit it but we are fast becoming an obscure regional backwater club. Maybe that is a bit harsh, but desperate times call for desperate measures.

[redandblue]

All of the above comments are spot on. It is truly sad to see that The Board, under Moores' Chairmanship, has accepted mediocrity. As we all know, Liverpool have been poor for years Even when we won the treble a few years ago, we were mighty fortunate, having been outclassed by Arsenal in the FA Cup Final, then managing to beat Birmingham on penalties. We even let in four goals against a pub team in the UEFA Cup Final. Those trophies bought Houllier time, but it was a false dawn. Performances have been poor, sometimes inept. And Liverpool's track record over the past year or so puts us down there with the likes of Bolton, Leeds, Spurs and Villa.

David Moores has overseen the decline of a great club to the point where the Board seems to have settled for mediocrity. The team is not good enough, performances are not good enough and the results are not good enough. And the manager is not good enough. GH may feel passionately about the club but he has taken the team as far as he can. The Board simply cannot sit back and see what happens. There is a real danger that this side could get sucked in to a battle at the wrong end of the table. Enough is enough. The fans, who have been very loyal to GH, really need to start to voice their opinions at Anfield. The Board needs to get the message that, even if Moores is prepared to accept mediocrity, the fans are not. Enough is enough.

[Redlester]

The fans need to hit them where it will hurt most - the balance sheet - its the only thing they care about. If the gate receipts and merchandising sales started to slip then they might sit up and take notice. A few chants of a certain nature on the terraces might not got amiss either. It is a sad state of affairs that the fans who care about this club would be reduced to such tactics to get the board of their club to sit up and take notice. I read today that GH is asking for yet more time. Time is something which this club no longer has in abundance before - as others rightly anticipate - we end up fighting to stay in the premiership in the bottom four rather than staking a claim to a place in Europe. We are now a mid table club which is very hard to stomach. I attribute the blame to the "spice boy" era - one of the worst decisions ever made was to buy Paul Ince. Without his influence a lot of other good young home grown players of that era would have produced much more for the club than they did. I am not sure that we ever fully recovered from that. We now need a passionate and strategic manager.

[JBG]

While I don't think Liverpool will be sucked down into the lower reaches of the table I think that if Houllier stays we will struggle to finish higher than sixth or seventh this year. We have already lost four times, and I could see us losing away to Newcastle and Chelsea, maybe the Mancs and Arsenal too, and there will be a few more shocks along the way like the occasional home defeat to the likes of Southampton or Middlesbro.

Liverpool fans have been too kind and too patient with the club over the last 10 years and I think enough is enough. The board is blowing all the clubs resources on failures (£5.5million on Ince, £5.5 million on Biscan, £5 million on Diao, £2.5million on Diomonde, £7.5million on Ziege, £2million on Dundee, £2.5million on Paul Stewart, £2.5million on Julian Dicks...the list is endless) over the last 11 years with very few results. The board also made the poor decisions of appointing Souness, Evans and now Houllier. I think most of the blame must lie with them.

I think that from now on a manager should be given a maximum of two years to deliver tangible success or he gets the sack. I know that people might argue that a manager should be given time to build his own team but Evans and Houllier both got 5 years without ever putting a decent Premiership challenge together, which is not good enough.

Remember that Arsene Wenger turned Arsenal into Double Winners in just 18 months, and he did not have the same money to spend as Houllier. Even Howard Wilkinson won the league for Leeds two seasons after winning promotion from the first division, because he spent his money well.   

I know people might point out that it took Ferguson took 7 years to win his first championship with UTD but his side made continuos improvements between 1990 and 1993, whereas Houllier's side are going backwards.

[redandblue]

The real issue now is.....who replaces GH as manager. No doubt Moores will want to keep it in-house and give the job to PT, but a lot of real surgery needs to be done to get rid of the poorer performers and to motivate the better players. This will require someone with significant big club experience, but anyone will be better than GH. There has been a lot of talk about O'Neill. But it is far from clear that he would be interested in a move to Liverpool. He is being very successful with Celtic, playing in front of 60,000 home fans and doing very well in Europe. Why would he give this all up and come to Anfield? I don't think that he'd be interested.

[JBG]

There has been a lot of talk about O'Neill. But it is far from clear that he would be interested in a move to Liverpool. He is being very successful with Celtic, playing in front of 60,000 home fans and doing very well in Europe. Why would he give this all up and come to Anfield? I don't think that he'd be interested.

I have always been a massive fan of Martin O' Neill and I have followed his career very closely. He is a very ambitious man and I think that while he is enjoying himself at Celtic he is privately frustrated that the club is playing in a weak league and he has little money to spend. I think that he is holding out for a big job in England, a big club like Liverpool or Man UTD which would give him the opportunity to pit his wits against the best in Europe.

People should remember that O' Neill is refusing to sign a long term contract at Celtic and instead he does a season to season deal. This can only point to him wanting a move back south.

A few clubs have shown interest over the last few years, such as Leeds and Spurs, but I think O' Neill wants one of the big jobs. My only fear is that I have a sneaking feeling that he has his eye as Alex Ferguson's successor.

I believe that O' Neill would win the League for Liverpool within two or three years. I have that much faith in him. His man management is second only to Alex Ferguson.

[redandblue]

You may well be right........he still lives in Wycombe and didn't move his family up to Glasgow. And it is correct that he has only signed a short term contract. There are stories that he is frustrated with the Scottish set up with effectively only four big domestic matches a season and that he is disappointed not to have been given money to spend by the Board. Nonetheless, he has huge affection for Celtic and those European nights at Parkhead are something special. I think that his eyes are on the United job. I think that it's a measure of how far Liverpool have fallen that we would even question someone not wanting to take on the job after Houllier gets the bullet. But the next manager at Anfield has a massive reconstruction job and I simply don't think that O'Neill wants it. My guess is that he'll stay at Celtic for perhaps two more years and position himself to become Ferguson's successor.

[JBG]

I think that privately O' Neill wants to move back to England, but he does clearly love Celtic and it looks like he would only move back if he could get a top five job, the likes of UTD, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea or Newcastle. I think that he has little chance of the Newcastle job as Shearer will probably replace Robson, Abrahovich will want a bigger name if he ever replaces Ranieri, Arsenal might go for another continental manager if Wenger goes, and apparently two years ago when UTD were looking for a successor for Ferguson they ruled out O' Neill, as they wanted either Erickson, Capello or Heintsfeld.

I think UTD would be O' Neill's preference but UTD seem to want a bigger name. Anyway, it looks like Ferguson will stay with UTD for another 3-5 years and I don't think that O' Neill will wait that long.

I think that if he was offered the Liverpool job between now and the summer he would take it, although someone like Phil Thompson would probably have to take charge until the summer.

If we don't get O' Neill it would be a disaster. I would shudder if we got in someone like Guus Hiddink, as he would be Houllier all over again.

[redandblue]

You could well be right. But the main worry for us at the moment is that David Moores may actually do nothing and we could well be stuck with Houllier till the end of the season, perhaps longer. I believe that the only way for Houllier to get sacked will be if the fans start becoming vocal. I know that it's not in the Liverpool tradition for fans to be chanting to get the manager sacked, but in this case, it's the only way. Davis Moores will simply pretend that the problem doesn't exist. Remember how long it took him to get rid of Souness. He even pleaded with Roy Evans to stay after the job was given to Houllier. Liverpool are facing a very major crisis based on terrible results and inept performances which stretch back over the past year. I have absolutely no confidence that the equally inept Board will act unless the fans take the lead here.

[JBG]

What really annoyed me about the Olmpiyiana match was that the crowd started sing the Gerrard Houllier song at the end. Fair enough, Liverpool won, but we need to start showing that the fans are disgruntled.

I also agree that much of the blame must lie with the board.

[redandblue]

Olympia Lubliana were a terrible team and I just couldn't believe that the fans were supporting him in this way. Houllier was just so very smug at the post match press conference. Can't he wake up......the big teams are playing tonight and tomorrow night in the only European competition that counts. The UEFA Cup is for the second raters. The fans need to start taking a lead here. David Moores and Rick Parry may have settled for mediocrity but they need to understand that the fans will not tolerate any more. Time to chant........Houllier Out, Houllier Out..........

[Redlester]

There has been a lot of talk about O'Neill. But it is far from clear that he would be interested in a move to Liverpool. He is being very successful with Celtic, playing in front of 60,000 home fans and doing very well in Europe. Why would he give this all up and come to Anfield? I don't think that he'd be interested.

I have always been a massive fan of Martin O' Neill and I have followed his career very closely. He is a very ambitious man and I think that while he is enjoying himself at Celtic he is privately frustrated that the club is playing in a weak league and he has little money to spend. I think that he is holding out for a big job in England, a big club like Liverpool or Man UTD which would give him the opportunity to pit his wits against the best in Europe.

People should remember that O' Neill is refusing to sign a long term contract at Celtic and instead he does a season to season deal. This can only point to him wanting a move back south.

A few clubs have shown interest over the last few years, such as Leeds and Spurs, but I think O' Neill wants one of the big jobs. My only fear is that I have a sneaking feeling that he has his eye as Alex Ferguson's successor.

I believe that O' Neill would win the League for Liverpool within two or three years. I have that much faith in him. His man management is second only to Alex Ferguson.

JBG is absolutely right - my only disagreement with him is that I actually think that his man management is better than Fergie's but time will tell

[Redlester]

I think that privately O' Neill wants to move back to England, but he does clearly love Celtic and it looks like he would only move back if he could get a top five job, the likes of UTD, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea or Newcastle. I think that he has little chance of the Newcastle job as Shearer will probably replace Robson, Abrahovich will want a bigger name if he ever replaces Ranieri, Arsenal might go for another continental manager if Wenger goes, and apparently two years ago when UTD were looking for a successor for Ferguson they ruled out O' Neill, as they wanted either Erickson, Capello or Heintsfeld.

I think UTD would be O' Neill's preference but UTD seem to want a bigger name. Anyway, it looks like Ferguson will stay with UTD for another 3-5 years and I don't think that O' Neill will wait that long.

I think that if he was offered the Liverpool job between now and the summer he would take it, although someone like Phil Thompson would probably have to take charge until the summer.

If we don't get O' Neill it would be a disaster. I would shudder if we got in someone like Guus Hiddink, as he would be Houllier all over again.

I shudder to think that Glen Hoddle is now in the market and looking for a job..... no, that could only be a very bad dream

[JBG]

I shudder to think that Glen Hoddle is now in the market and looking for a job..... no, that could only be a very bad dream

As bad as Houllier is...Hoddle would be an absolute disaster for Liverpool, but he hasn't a snowballs chance in hell of ever getting a top job again.

[Fowler_E7]

There has been a lot of talk about O'Neill. But it is far from clear that he would be interested in a move to Liverpool. He is being very successful with Celtic, playing in front of 60,000 home fans and doing very well in Europe. Why would he give this all up and come to Anfield? I don't think that he'd be interested.

I have always been a massive fan of Martin O' Neill and I have followed his career very closely. He is a very ambitious man and I think that while he is enjoying himself at Celtic he is privately frustrated that the club is playing in a weak league and he has little money to spend. I think that he is holding out for a big job in England, a big club like Liverpool or Man UTD which would give him the opportunity to pit his wits against the best in Europe.

People should remember that O' Neill is refusing to sign a long term contract at Celtic and instead he does a season to season deal. This can only point to him wanting a move back south.

A few clubs have shown interest over the last few years, such as Leeds and Spurs, but I think O' Neill wants one of the big jobs. My only fear is that I have a sneaking feeling that he has his eye as Alex Ferguson's successor.

I believe that O' Neill would win the League for Liverpool within two or three years. I have that much faith in him. His man management is second only to Alex Ferguson.

interesting views JBG do you still think this now