Liverpool FC Forum

[Ace Ventura]

So you dont even recognise the fact that he could offer our other strikers and younger players the chance to learn from him in a coaching capacity ?

The tap in you mentioned against Arsenal, did you watch his movement ? He shapes to go far post then darts to the front at the last minute losing his marker to make the finish simple.
The were times that his link up play was far better than anything we have seen from our other strikers this season.
We all know that he is not in great shape and wont play many games, but he is always a goal threat, the other strikers we have at the moment, can you say that about them ?

his link up play?  Fowler isn't anywhere NEAR Crouch or Kuyt.  Most of his attempts to pass long went out of play!  And what about the rest of the match?  Fowler vanished...he was too slow to do anything up front and he started playing deep...where he was cut to peices by kids who could run 5x as fast and thats why he cannot get into the squad.  The Preimiership is about pace and unless you are great in the air (which Fowler isn't) you are going to struggle to make an impact on games.

coaching?  maybe...but my point is Fowler isn't good enough as a player.  He got some goals last season...but now he's back to his Man City form and the only place you'll see him on a regular basis is Liverpool city centre on the with Mcmanaman.

Have you personally seen him on the lash with Mcmanaman ?
You are guilty of helping to paint an unfair picture on one of our players.
Fowler is far better at linking with the midfield and attacking partner than Kuyt or Crouch, they arent bad, but alot of attacks slow down with both of them as they dont spot the pass anywhere near as quickly as Robbie does.
We can agree to disagree on that cos i know your thoughts on him.
One thing you are totally wrong about is that he is back to his Manchester city form, how is that ?
He has scored nearly every game he has played despite his lack of match fitness.
Robbie is one of the greatest strikers every to wear the red shirt and i cannot understand your total disregard for him.

[El Gordo]

Exactly fowler has scored quite abit for us since he resigned, well when ever given a chance so i dont know where the criticism is coming from>> Are these the same fans that suggest Crouch is Liverpool fc player. cus he is not . Fowler deserves to be at this club. Crouch doesnt. Slate me if u like . he always misses the sitters. scores the odd spec.  Anyone remember collymore fowler rush and a young michael owen??? that is the kind of strikers we should have. THE SITUATION up front is a joke to be fair

[El Gordo]

im not from liverpool but my granny is and i have supported them  all my life.......i cant remember where i read it but it was on this site...Some one suggested we are en years away from winning a title ?? well unless we get massive investment from this new crowd i would agree with him........ iv genuinely told every year for the last 10 years that we would win it , call it blind optimism but iv copped on a small bit... we might beat barcelona next month with Crouch garcia ( gone now i know) pennant and co but over over the course of a season we wont be near winning the Epl.....


I admire people that come on and back up the team but some times the level of support for some player that have been brought in for big enough money is scary....like we need some sort of reality

[antz]

Paul Tomkins Article found on Square Football.

I think that this article for sums up the reaction of the leauge cup exit on this borad and in the media. Many have to excpet that Rafa is going to make mistakes such as not picking a full strength team and especially play Jerzy " A keeper of my ability ... Blah blah " Dudek on Tuesday. A few mistakes do not mean that Rafa is not the man for the job.  We are work in progress and with investment and a bit of pride swallowing from Rafa ( EXCESSIVE ROTATION)  i'm sure will get the holy grail of the league title within 2 seasons.

On Robbie, it's obvious to anyone that his not the player he was but again obvious I think that he has a role to play at LFC. Either as a coach or an impact sub when a goal is needed.

So that's it. Sack Rafa Benítez. Hand back the European Cup now on permanent display at the club. Forfeit third place in the current league campaign, and cancel the tie with Barcelona. It's all over. Silence the pianos and with muffled drum bring out the coffin, let the mourners come.

What is the world coming to? More importantly, what is sports writing coming to? To say I'm livid at some of the stuff being written about Liverpool FC this week would be an understatement. The only thing worse than Liverpool's defending and goalkeeping against Arsenal the other night has been the unmitigated tripe written about the state of the club as a result.

According to The Guardian's Richard Williams, Rafael Benítez cannot even accept any credit for his success in Istanbul, but must – get this! – shoulder the blame for the Arsenal "glorified reserve match" debacle? On what planet does this pass as logic?

The latter shouldering of blame is of course due; Benítez chose the side, and it failed. Even though it was capable of winning, as both sides had a similar look, with a mixture of kids and reserves, plus a couple of first teamers. So as manager, that's his rap to take. He apologised.

But to discredit the man for winning the Champions League – with the average side he inherited – is, quite frankly, the kind of comment that should have a football writer's licence revoked (okay, so we don't need licences, but it's something to campaign for).

While we're at it, let's strip Mohammed Ali of a few of his belts, and declare five of Michael Schumacher's Grand Prix titles null and void. I have no axe to grind with Williams in general, and this is not a personal attack on him. But he might be better off returning to reviewing films if he cannot see the most basic aspects of Liverpool's monumental achievement in 2005.

Liverpool overcame Juventus and Chelsea – the expensively assembled Champions-elect of Italy and England – on the way to Istanbul, as well as two of the previous season's semi-finalists in the group stage (Monaco and Deportivo La Coruna). Plus the mighty AC Milan in the final. Yes, it needed Milan to take their eye off the ball in the second half; although it still took the drive of Steven Gerrard to scare the life out of them. And yes, it needed Shevchenko to miss the unmissable (credit as well to Dudek, who was as inspired that night as he was insipid against Arsenal).

But that comeback came on the back of Rafa's tactical changes at half-time. When Steve Finnan went off injured, Didi Hamann came on – not your unimaginative like-for-like replacement. Liverpool switched formation, to 3-5-1-1. Harry Kewell had already been replaced by Vladimir Smicer, so Rafa had to work extra hard with all his reshuffling, such as when switching Steven Gerrard to right-back late in the game, to deal with Serginho, and moving the lightweight Smicer into central midfield.

Who decided to introduce Hamann – ostensibly a defensive player – knowing it could positively change the game? Was it one of Ken Dodd's Diddy Men? (No pun intended.) Might other managers have gambled by throwing on a second out-and-out striker, such as Djibril Cissé?

And who switched the formation? Was it Cilla Black?

Rafa cannot live off Istanbul forever; however, he doesn't deserve to have his achievement belittled or wiped out, as it just gives more rope to his purblind accusers. Can Rafa still take credit for last season's 82 points, the highest the club has managed for 18 years, and enough for other teams to have won the league with in the interim? Can he take credit for last season's FA Cup, where Manchester United and Chelsea were bested in the earlier rounds?

This is a man who was the first in the Reds' history to win trophies in his first two seasons. He won an extremely important trophy in his first season, and a 'nice' one in his second. Wenger had a comparable haul from his first five seasons; Ferguson had an inferior haul from his first five seasons. Wenger, as great as he is, won nothing between 1998 and 2002, and infamously saw his team do far worse in the Champions League than Liverpool have been lately. Now Benítez is under pressure after six months without a trophy?

Wenger has had eleven years to get his youth and reserve systems right, and boy has he done so. But, unlike Benítez, who was still trying to make wholesale changes last summer, Wenger and Ferguson are at the stage where they've had their 'own' players for years now, and simply need to add a couple every summer to maintain their vision.

Has Rafa made mistakes? He certainly has. As have Wenger, Mourinho and Ferguson. And in the last three seasons, Rafa's record stands up against any of them, especially when weighted against both budget and/or time in charge.

Also, Rafa cannot say he's had the luck of the draw in any competition. This league campaign started with consecutive away trips to Everton, Bolton, Chelsea, Arsenal and Manchester United – a cruel fixture list. And in the domestic cups Benítez, unbelievably, is still yet to face a team below mid-table in the Championship. It's worth noting, especially in a week when Chelsea have played Macclesfield and Wycombe, and given United have twice faced non-league teams in that time, as well as lowly league opposition. Rafa has not had one 'easy' cup tie that essentially passes as a bye to the next round.

Yes, I'm pro-Benítez, as I think he's a top class manager who should be indulged, mistakes and all. As I also write for the official Liverpool website, I'm prone to defending the club (especially on that site, as it's what you'd expect). When I have nothing good to say about something – such as Tuesday's game – I'll say next-to-nothing. Scapegoats are not my stock-in-trade.

Argentine centre-back Garbiel Paletta is currently being rounded on, and yet he's 20 – a mere babe for a position that takes years to grow into. Unlike many of Arsenal's impressive kids, he's been in England for just six months. Jamie Carragher was similarly lambasted in the position the late 90s, especially after two own goals against Manchester United. Look at him now.

Paletta wasn't bought to be in the first team at this stage of his career; he's here to learn. And sure, he had a harsh lesson. Perhaps Williams never made mistakes as a young rookie? Paletta's lack of pace is a concern, but it never harmed Sami Hyypia, who was rejected by Oldham and other English clubs when older than Paletta now is.

While Tuesday represented the Reds' best chance of silverware this season, the game has to be put into context. For a start, it was for silverware that everyone discredits as soon as it's won. The game came after the crazy festive schedule, which also dealt Rafa the task of facing Arsenal in the FA Cup; hardly the easing into the competition you'd want.

Rafa put out a similarly mixed team against Burnley in 2005, just a few months after the Reds' youth side beat Spurs' first team at White Hart Lane, and while I was busy arguing about the long-term view after Burnley, others went hysterical. And by May the Reds were celebrating arguably the club's greatest success. His decision may not be similarly vindicated this time out, but the precedent is there to at least give the man some leeway.

Liverpool's senior players have played more matches in the last two and a half years than those of any other club: a ludicrous ten Champions League qualifying ties, two World Club Championship games, and all the extra ties that come with making it to not one, not two, but three cup finals in that time.

If Rafa wanted to protect many of his senior players in what is a competition of low value, who can blame him, with Momo Sissoko already seriously crocked in the Carling Cup? I bet he now wishes he'd also totally omitted Mark Gonzalez and especially Luis Garcia, whose midfield goals will be missed in his six-month absence, not least in the tie with his old club, Barcelona.

Making money has never been my motivation in writing about Liverpool. I've made a living from writing books, and but for ill health (and great frustration) I'd be doing a 5th. But my motivation has always been righting some of the unjust criticism the club receives, and if I'm no longer in a position to write new books, I can still stand up (or sit down) and be counted at a time like this, especially with my blood boiling.

The game against Arsenal was bad. Muy malo, Rafa might say. There's little to defend about the performance. But there's still plenty to defend about the manager, the club, and its players. In Kuyt, Agger, Alonso, Garcia, Reina, Sissoko and Bellamy, Benítez has spent his money extremely wisely, while Pennant and Gonzalez still have the potential to join that list.

Peter Crouch, ludicrously described as 'hapless' by Williams, despite top-scoring for Liverpool and England in 2006, has been worth every pence of the £7m paid, when at the time people said he wasn't even worth £2m. He's now apparently valued at £12m. Crouch's Champions League goals – four in just five games – took the club through to the tie with Barcelona. He also grabbed the crucial goal in the qualifying round.

So there you have it, a club in crisis managed by a man who played no part in his own greatest success. Next week, how Winston Churchill had nothing to do with WWII.

Paul Tomkins
11 January 2007

[Igor Zidane]

So you dont even recognise the fact that he could offer our other strikers and younger players the chance to learn from him in a coaching capacity ?

The tap in you mentioned against Arsenal, did you watch his movement ? He shapes to go far post then darts to the front at the last minute losing his marker to make the finish simple.
The were times that his link up play was far better than anything we have seen from our other strikers this season.
We all know that he is not in great shape and wont play many games, but he is always a goal threat, the other strikers we have at the moment, can you say that about them ?

his link up play?  Fowler isn't anywhere NEAR Crouch or Kuyt.  Most of his attempts to pass long went out of play!  And what about the rest of the match?  Fowler vanished...he was too slow to do anything up front and he started playing deep...where he was cut to peices by kids who could run 5x as fast and thats why he cannot get into the squad.  The Preimiership is about pace and unless you are great in the air (which Fowler isn't) you are going to struggle to make an impact on games.

coaching?  maybe...but my point is Fowler isn't good enough as a player.  He got some goals last season...but now he's back to his Man City form and the only place you'll see him on a regular basis is Liverpool city centre on the with Mcmanaman.

You know nothing of fowlers personal life , so how you can make comments like that is unreal. Stop reading the tabloids and give the lad a break .

[LFC #1]

So you dont even recognise the fact that he could offer our other strikers and younger players the chance to learn from him in a coaching capacity ?

The tap in you mentioned against Arsenal, did you watch his movement ? He shapes to go far post then darts to the front at the last minute losing his marker to make the finish simple.
The were times that his link up play was far better than anything we have seen from our other strikers this season.
We all know that he is not in great shape and wont play many games, but he is always a goal threat, the other strikers we have at the moment, can you say that about them ?

his link up play?  Fowler isn't anywhere NEAR Crouch or Kuyt.  Most of his attempts to pass long went out of play!  And what about the rest of the match?  Fowler vanished...he was too slow to do anything up front and he started playing deep...where he was cut to peices by kids who could run 5x as fast and thats why he cannot get into the squad.  The Preimiership is about pace and unless you are great in the air (which Fowler isn't) you are going to struggle to make an impact on games.

coaching?  maybe...but my point is Fowler isn't good enough as a player.  He got some goals last season...but now he's back to his Man City form and the only place you'll see him on a regular basis is Liverpool city centre on the with Mcmanaman.

You know nothing of fowlers personal life , so how you can make comments like that is unreal. Stop reading the tabloids and give the lad a break .

His lack of respect for a Liverpool legend is baffling!? Fair enough he doesn't rate him as a player anymore (he is past his best), but there's more to it than that. It seems that our mate 7_Kewell simply doesn't have much respect for God. He's a blasphemer! 

On a serious note 7_Kewell, I suggest you read Robie's book mate.

[Red @ Heart]

There you have it you single handed dump us out of the another cup and impose the worse conceded goals in any game since 1914.

Now FUCK OFF and go to a club who cares.

so it was only them 2 who played that night was it? and your telling dudek to feck off, so everything he has helped and done for liverpool means nothing??? all his hard work in instanbul means all now because he had a horrid game the other night, fine he not the best goal keeper in the world but he has proven himself, talk about a knee jerk reaction, every one is entitled to a bad game and he hasnt started for liverpool in how long? hasnt played a game for liverpool in how long?

your a and have a short memory.

[SouthCoastShankly]

There you have it you single handed dump us out of the another cup and impose the worse conceded goals in any game since 1914.

Now FUCK OFF and go to a club who cares.

so it was only them 2 who played that night was it? and your telling dudek to feck off, so everything he has helped and done for liverpool means nothing??? all his hard work in instanbul means all now because he had a horrid game the other night, fine he not the best goal keeper in the world but he has proven himself, talk about a knee jerk reaction, every one is entitled to a bad game and he hasnt started for liverpool in how long? hasnt played a game for liverpool in how long?

your a and have a short memory.

Dudeks time is up here. Its obvious.

Paletta is a liability. We need a better youth system to prevent this happening again (see this thread Youth System Thread)

You on the other hand are a complete muppet who I can't even be bothered to argue with.

How often did Dudek play well for Liverpool when he was playing regularly? The frank truth is that every other keep we've had in recent years is better than him. Reina, Carson, Kirkland, Jones... need I go on.

Stop @rse licking and face facts

[supersub]

There you have it you single handed dump us out of the another cup and impose the worse conceded goals in any game since 1914.

Now FUCK OFF and go to a club who cares.

so it was only them 2 who played that night was it? and your telling dudek to feck off, so everything he has helped and done for liverpool means nothing??? all his hard work in instanbul means all now because he had a horrid game the other night, fine he not the best goal keeper in the world but he has proven himself, talk about a knee jerk reaction, every one is entitled to a bad game and he hasnt started for liverpool in how long? hasnt played a game for liverpool in how long?

your a and have a short memory.

Dudeks time is up here. Its obvious.

Paletta is a liability. We need a better youth system to prevent this happening again (see this thread Youth System Thread)

You on the other hand are a a complete muppet who I can't even be bothered to argue with.

Joined the forum July 2005 When did we win the Cl again? Decide to support the reds cos they won a big trophy or just a coincidence?

lol. you dont have to argue with me, and yes its a coincidence i joined that time, but you on the other hand lmao are a total muppet your self, im not slating dudek for what happened the other night, you did, he had a bad game get over it,


total loser you are,

[Ace Ventura]

On a serious note 7_Kewell, I suggest you read Robie's book mate.

Just finished his book last week, it was very interesting and harsh the way he was forced out.
It worked out well for the club if i am honest we got £11 million and he had some horrendous injuries and has hardly played.
The end chapter where he has resigned and talks about not even negotiating over wages shows the lads commitment to the club, and his love for the place.
He is an absolute legend.

[SouthCoastShankly]

There you have it you single handed dump us out of the another cup and impose the worse conceded goals in any game since 1914.

Now FUCK OFF and go to a club who cares.

so it was only them 2 who played that night was it? and your telling dudek to feck off, so everything he has helped and done for liverpool means nothing??? all his hard work in instanbul means all now because he had a horrid game the other night, fine he not the best goal keeper in the world but he has proven himself, talk about a knee jerk reaction, every one is entitled to a bad game and he hasnt started for liverpool in how long? hasnt played a game for liverpool in how long?

your a and have a short memory.

Dudeks time is up here. Its obvious.

Paletta is a liability. We need a better youth system to prevent this happening again (see this thread Youth System Thread)

You on the other hand are a a complete muppet who I can't even be bothered to argue with.

Joined the forum July 2005 When did we win the Cl again? Decide to support the reds cos they won a big trophy or just a coincidence?

lol. you dont have to argue with me, and yes its a coincidence i joined that time, but you on the other hand lmao are a total muppet your self, im not slating dudek for what happened the other night, you did, he had a bad game get over it,


total loser you are, go Fúck your mother and suck you dads cóck if they alive

    

Kids crack me who can't swear and send abuse properly.

You numbnuts. 

[Red @ Heart]

There you have it you single handed dump us out of the another cup and impose the worse conceded goals in any game since 1914.

Now FUCK OFF and go to a club who cares.

so it was only them 2 who played that night was it? and your telling dudek to feck off, so everything he has helped and done for liverpool means nothing??? all his hard work in instanbul means all now because he had a horrid game the other night, fine he not the best goal keeper in the world but he has proven himself, talk about a knee jerk reaction, every one is entitled to a bad game and he hasnt started for liverpool in how long? hasnt played a game for liverpool in how long?

your a and have a short memory.

Dudeks time is up here. Its obvious.

Paletta is a liability. We need a better youth system to prevent this happening again (see this thread Youth System Thread)

You on the other hand are a a complete muppet who I can't even be bothered to argue with.

Joined the forum July 2005 When did we win the Cl again? Decide to support the reds cos they won a big trophy or just a coincidence?

lol. you dont have to argue with me, and yes its a coincidence i joined that time, but you on the other hand lmao are a total muppet your self, im not slating dudek for what happened the other night, you did, he had a bad game get over it,


total loser you are, go Fúck your mother and suck you dads cóck if they alive

    

Kids crack me who can't swear and send abuse properly.

You numbnuts. 

i guess there dead then

[7_Kewell]

respect?  coaching??!  what a load of


He's not good enough AS A PLAYER and thats my opinon.  It would also be an opinion that's shared by Rafa...because could someone care to explain why he cannot get into the first team?

agree to diagree...but my opinion is Fowler was once one of our greatest strikers....now he's unfit, slow and a shadow of the man he once was.  yes he was a great player...but so was BArnes and Rush.  If they were here taking 30k a week and doing nothing, i'd be calling for them to go too.

get out of the past and into the now...Dudek and Fowler arn't good enough...not even for the reserves.

coaching? who knows...but this thread is about our players...and mainly the ones who are not good enough.

[SouthCoastShankly]

There you have it you single handed dump us out of the another cup and impose the worse conceded goals in any game since 1914.

Now FUCK OFF and go to a club who cares.

so it was only them 2 who played that night was it? and your telling dudek to feck off, so everything he has helped and done for liverpool means nothing??? all his hard work in instanbul means all now because he had a horrid game the other night, fine he not the best goal keeper in the world but he has proven himself, talk about a knee jerk reaction, every one is entitled to a bad game and he hasnt started for liverpool in how long? hasnt played a game for liverpool in how long?

your a and have a short memory.

Dudeks time is up here. Its obvious.

Paletta is a liability. We need a better youth system to prevent this happening again (see this thread Youth System Thread)

You on the other hand are a a complete muppet who I can't even be bothered to argue with.

Joined the forum July 2005 When did we win the Cl again? Decide to support the reds cos they won a big trophy or just a coincidence?

lol. you dont have to argue with me, and yes its a coincidence i joined that time, but you on the other hand lmao are a total muppet your self, im not slating dudek for what happened the other night, you did, he had a bad game get over it,


total loser you are, go Fúck your mother and suck you dads cóck if they alive

    

Kids crack me who can't swear and send abuse properly.

You numbnuts. 

i guess there dead then

Keep going your on your way to a warning little boy. Its just like an Asbo you'll be well chuffed 

[Igor Zidane]

respect?  coaching??!  what a load of


He's not good enough AS A PLAYER and thats my opinon.  It would also be an opinion that's shared by Rafa...because could someone care to explain why he cannot get into the first team?

agree to diagree...but my opinion is Fowler was once one of our greatest strikers....now he's unfit, slow and a shadow of the man he once was.  yes he was a great player...but so was BArnes and Rush.  If they were here taking 30k a week and doing nothing, i'd be calling for them to go too.

get out of the past and into the now...Dudek and Fowler arn't good enough...not even for the reserves.

coaching? who knows...but this thread is about our players...and mainly the ones who are not good enough.

Fair enough ,you don't think he's good enough anymore , but why make it so personal and slate his personal life or say things like " he's a shadow of the man he once was ". You don't even know the lad. Why so personal about the fella?