Liverpool FC Forum

[Bad Bob]

Okay, I don't think there's anyone that doesn't realize that, should we miss out on the title this season, it'll have been the draws that cost us the trophy.  So, I propose a little exercise.  I know I'm jumping the gun a bit here but let's assume the following outcome for this year's run-in, for the sake of discussion:

(1) Man U win all 4 of their remaining games 2-0
(2) Liverpool win all 3 of their remaining games 2-0

Under that scenario, the Mancs would win the league by 6 pts but our current 3 goal advantage in the goal difference column would hold.  With that six point gap in mind, we should turn our attention to the 11 draws we registered this year--recognizing that if we turned just three of those into wins (taking 9 points instead of 3) we would have won the league on goal difference (all other things being equal).  Under these circumstances, have a look at the draws below and discuss which draws were the most costly** to our title challenge (note: the home side is on the left side of each score and, for the sake of interest, I've included our league position before (BM) and after (AM) each match to the right):

(1) Aston Villa 0 - 0 LFC (Aug. 31st)    [BM=2nd, AM=2nd]
(2) LFC 0 - 0 Stoke (Sept. 20)    [BM=2nd, AM=3rd]
(3) LFC 0 - 0 Fulham (Nov. 22)    [BM=2nd, AM=2nd]
(4) LFC 0 - 0 West Ham (Dec. 1)    [BM=2nd, AM=1st]
(5) LFC 2 - 2 Hull City (Dec. 13)    [BM=1st, AM=1st]
(6) Arsenal 1 - 1 LFC (Dec. 21)    [BM=1st, AM=1st]
(7) Stoke 0 - 0 LFC (Jan. 10)    [BM=1st, AM=1st]
(8) LFC 1 - 1 Everton (Jan. 19)    [BM=2nd, AM=2nd]
(9) Wigan 1 - 1 LFC (Jan. 28)    [BM=2nd, AM=3rd]
(10) LFC 1 - 1 Man City (Feb. 22)    [BM=2nd, AM=2nd]
(11) LFC 4 - 4 Arsenal (April 21)    [BM=2nd, AM=2nd]



**BTW, when I say "most costly" I leave that up to you to define.  It may relate to the opponent, with a costly draw being defined as taking place against a team we should have definitely beaten.  It may relate to the timing of the draw, either in terms of when in the season it happened or when it happened relative to other results.  Or, it might relate to the manner of the draw, such as giving up a late equalizer.  Someone will no doubt say a draw's a draw and they all are costly and, fair enough.  But, I thought it might be interesting to delve into our draws anyway for the sake of discussion.  At the very least, we've got all of them posted up in one place so that people can see when we struggled most this season and against whom.

[JoeTerp]

I believe I had a related poll going earlier

[Judge]

furkin ell bob. youll have stato owzat all over this thread like a herpes rash

[Madmax]

For me the draws that have cost us are in december when we were top of the table and should have built a good lead. Yet we moved forward slowly with our draws clinging on to first place. We did'nt capitalize on the others loss of points aswel.

[JoeTerp]

for me, I am not sure the timing of the draws makes any difference. Stoke at home would have been the match that would have been most expected to have been a win. The Wigan and Everton results hurt a lot because of the manner in which we conceded as well as how late they came.  At least in the Wigan result, you could put it down to Karma (which I don't actually believe in) adjusting for the great escape result we pulled off on them in the first match.

But changing one draw will likely mean little as we will probably finish 2 or 3 draws behind United, and that is with doing the double on them. If we only would have drawn at Old Trafford, which for us taking 4 points off them would have still been seen as a great season against them, we would have needed to have taken a further two draws off the list.  This is precisely why I do not agree with BigMick that we have been fortunate this season. United played poorly for 2 months of the back stretch, arguably possibly brought on because of our beat down of them at their place, and despite playing poorly for a long stretch they only dropped 3 points.

[Fowler_E7]

West ham, Fulham, Hull and Stoke at home should have been routine victorys IMO the away draws are fair enough, as our tough home games like Everton, Arsenal, but against the likes of the above mentioned a team of our quality should be winning 4 out of 5.

[Number 9]

I would love to know how many of those draws Gerrard and Torres both started in,out of interest..it may tell an interesting story!

Any way for me the 2 Stoke draws were very painful,quite simply put..Park the bus all ya want but we should still be destroying teams of that calibre.Yes respect to Pulis.On both occassions he set his team out with a point in mind.But the gulf in class in our team and theirs shouts loudly,we should be winning against teams like this..home and away!

Also 2-2 at Anfield with Hull..come on,yes they had a purple patch that lasted for a lot longer than was expected but again a very dissapointing result against a much weaker team!

The 2 with Arsenal I can accept as they are a very good team..you can afford to draw with teams like them as long as you beat the lesser teams,which we obviously failed to do.Funny that IF we beat them at home and lost to them away we'd be a point better off!

Drawing away to Villa is not the end of the world either as they too are a very good side.

Wigan,W Ham and Fulham..we should really be beating them,but if you look over the season all have proved they can battle with the big boys on their day..all can play!

For me the most costly are the 2 against Stoke and the one against Hull..because they are Stoke and Hull and we are LFC!

Most hurtful match(not a draw like) was loosing to Spurs when we should have scored about 10..but thats football!Also loosing to Boro..wtf is that all about.
Basically I think we have had a bit of bad luck on occasion and reckon that the team lacked a collective passion and effort in certain games in the middle of the season.
The players need to realise from day one next term to the end that we cannot take our foot off the pedal in any game against any team..is it complacency,i dunno??
We have proven at the start and end of this season we can hammer anyone on our day..how else to explain the middle of our season other than lack of effort,grit,wanting it enough or whatever I dont know??
Bit of a mystery..its been a schizophrenic season,a great one too though..defencive LFC scoring more goals than anyone.eh,who'd have thought it??
Oh and we can still win it!!

[burjennio]

West ham, Fulham, Hull and Stoke at home should have been routine victorys IMO the away draws are fair enough, as our tough home games like Everton, Arsenal, but against the likes of the above mentioned a team of our quality should be winning 4 out of 5.

i would look at that differently mate in that against Fulham and West Ham (Man City too) we didnt deserve 3 points because the performances were awful, against Arsenal, Stoke and to a lesser extent the bitters the team played really well and were very unlucky - in fact IIRC in the Stoke game there was the goal disallowed in the 1st minute for feck all. I dont believe that any side has a God-given right to beat another and IMO anyway, it should be the perfrormance not the quality of opposition that should be the measuring stick.

[metalhead]

We should have beaten stoke, fulham, west ham, hull and everton at home.

[JoeTerp]

BOTH Torres and Gerrard:  Stoke (home), Everton, Wigan


Wigan No Alonso,   Stoke No Mascherano,  Everton No Mascherano



We were missing Torres in the two league games we lost too.

[burjennio]

i dont think we should forget that even when Torres played for the 1st half of the season he wasnt even close to 100% fit. A summer off would do him the world of good but hes heading off for the pointless Confederations cup. And Mascherano has to play WCQs up to the end of June. Im really starting to despise international football

[Number 9]

BOTH Torres and Gerrard:  Stoke (home), Everton, Wigan


Wigan No Alonso,   Stoke No Mascherano,  Everton No Mascherano



We were missing Torres in the two league games we lost too.

Cheers Joe!!
So other than the 3 draws Stoke(H) Everton and Wigan we were without one of Torres and Gerrard??

Im not making excuses like cause we should still be beating them without!What I am saying is that when teams set out for the point home or away we need them both or struggle to create.Of course its never gonna be that way always.
Makes me think though..we desperately need another AM and Striker(quality ones as well)
Brings me back to what I was thinking yesterday..less troops in the army and more quality required.Rafa needs to ship out a lot of shi'te and bring in some quality..fu,ck this massive squad..its been too big too long!
I doubt he will though..he seems obsessed with a large squad,look how many times he mentions it in his interviews!
Feck the skwaaaaad Rafa bring in winners!!

[Alex G.]

Mascherano is not precisely the key player against the small clubs.

[kalos]

Until it's mathematically impossible I'll refrain form giving an opinion on the draws

What I hope for as a minimum is Mancs going to Hull with Hull needing a win to stay up and us 3 points behind (Citeh or Arsenal having turned them over )

Obviously if by some miracle the Mancs lose to Arsenal and Citeh and we win it on GD I'll be OK with that too

[andy_g]

i don't know if its possible to say which is the more costly, as they've all cost us exactly the same - i.e. 2 points less than we should have had each time. of course, there are teams we really SHOULD have beaten at home like stoke and hull and probably fulham, so maybe they are the 'costliest' in as much as they should have been the easiest games in which to pick up points.

one that sticks out for me though is the away game against arsenal which mick has mentioned a lot of times as bad points dropped - a man up and pretty much in the driving seat and we just didn't play the right game to take advantage of it. having said that, the arsenal game at anfield was pretty costly as well in that we threw away the points with a series of bad defensive errors at a time when we really needed to keep maximum pressure on the mancs. it seems to me that they are now playing a little more relaxed and will feel there run in is a lot easier now we aren't breathing right down their necks.