Liverpool FC Forum

[Bad Bob]

I can only ask the mods for there opinion on this

My view is that there's little wrong with starting a thread like this.  Saint is not a serial spammer nor a WUM and doesn't start needless threads for the sake of his own ego so what's the problem?  Sure, it's a bit baseless at the moment, seeing as it's coming from a rumour circulating on another board, but there's nothing wrong with asking the question, IMO.  We do have people on here with their ear a little closer to the ground then some of us when it comes to goings on at the club.  Maybe someone has more information about the rumour's validity?  At worst, if there's absolutely nothing to the story, a few people post an "I dunno? " response and the thread slips into obscurity.  Unless, of course, it's turned into a discussion about posting habits, what counts as credible sources and who likes to have a whinge (all compelling reading, BTW).

[woof woof !]

Just been reading on TLW that we have sacked all the youth coaches (5) Not sure if its a total clearout.... how many coaches do we have?

Anyone heard anything ?

No .

[LFC2007]

Well whatever anybody else thinks about the validity of the thread, if we really are losing youth games on a regualr basis to the likes of Scunthorpe and Stoke then clearly something is up and for me it's more worthy of discussion on here than mnay things which rack up lots of replies (half of my threads to name but a few ). Either the much vaunted policy of scouring the globe for various expensive youngsters while largely ignoring young British talent is not really working, or the coaching is garbage or both.

My money is on a little bit of both as I can't actually believe that all the players we have spent many hours scouting, recruiting and nurturing are actually worse than the lads off the local estate at Scunthorpe, but by the same token I do feel that we overlook the possibility that one or two British kids might also be quite good a little too readily. Goodness only knows who will sign a Gerrard, a Carragher, an Owen or a Fowler should they come through these days. My suspicion is that it's probably less likely to be us than it was a few years back.

Firstly - the majority of our youth team squad is comprised of British players. The performance of our youth team in terms of results is pretty much academic, so long as they're not doing a Derby. We're talking about lads who are 16 and 17 - they're learning the ropes. How technically sound they are is as important as anything else. Organisation, anticipation,  positional sense, physical development etc. will all come with age and experience.

Further to that, our reserve team has more foreigners than our youth team, but it's still a mix of both, and they p!ssed the league this year. It's encouraging as it surely requires some degree of quality to achieve that level of success, but it by no means verifies that we have a reserve team full of future first-team regulars. I'd say at the very least it indicates we have two or three in there who have a good chance of making it, which is the most important point.

[account deleted by request]

Well whatever anybody else thinks about the validity of the thread, if we really are losing youth games on a regualr basis to the likes of Scunthorpe and Stoke then clearly something is up and for me it's more worthy of discussion on here than mnay things which rack up lots of replies (half of my threads to name but a few ). Either the much vaunted policy of scouring the globe for various expensive youngsters while largely ignoring young British talent is not really working, or the coaching is garbage or both.

My money is on a little bit of both as I can't actually believe that all the players we have spent many hours scouting, recruiting and nurturing are actually worse than the lads off the local estate at Scunthorpe, but by the same token I do feel that we overlook the possibility that one or two British kids might also be quite good a little too readily. Goodness only knows who will sign a Gerrard, a Carragher, an Owen or a Fowler should they come through these days. My suspicion is that it's probably less likely to be us than it was a few years back.

The majority of our youth team squad is comprised of British players.

Our reserve team has more foreigners than our youth team, but it's still a mix, and they p!ssed the league this year.

From what I have been reading recently about our youth team, the problem appears to be that Rafa (or whoever) wasn't pleased at the quality of player that was coming through from the youth team. Heighway was eased out(?) We then invested heavily in young players to bolster the few quality players already there, but because of their age when brought through we now seem to have too many players all graduating from the Academy at the same time. i.e. both the players that have been with the club for years from age 9 or 10 AND the influx of young talent that we have been poaching from around Europe.

This problem as been exacerbated by the change in leadership of the Academy with Heighway moving out and Piet Hamburg (can't say I had ever heard of him before yesterday) taking over. This has led to some confusion as most of the coaches seem to be following the old established route, while Hamburg is trying to link the youth players football more to the demands and needs of Rafa.

The youngsters who have been at Liverpool for years seem to be becoming confused, disheartened and disillusioned as they are finding that the usual progression from the Academy is under threat because of the influx of 16-18 year olds that we have signed.

To me its nothing to do with whether they are foreign or not. A good player is a good player whether he comes from Milan or Huyton.

Posted before LFC2007'S post was edited. 

[LFC2007]

I don't know how valid the story is, but if it rings true then this is the crux of the issue:

This problem as been exacerbated by the change in leadership of the Academy with Heighway moving out and Piet Hamburg (can't say I had ever heard of him before yesterday) taking over. This has led to some confusion as most of the coaches seem to be following the old established route, while Hamburg is trying to link the youth players football more to the demands and needs of Rafa.

The demand from the manager to have quality players coming through the ranks is constant, it's how Rafa's methods - expressed through Hamburg and his regime - differ to those previously employed and the effect they are having on the club.

Essentially, what is the difference between the 'old established route' and the 'Rafa-Hamburg' route?

You can pretty much divide the methodology of any approach to a successful youth team system into;

i) Recruitment policy
ii) Training methods


i) We know the difference in recruitment policies between old and new, we know a likely effect of this policy has been success in the reserve league and better quality coming through than in previous years. Would this quality have come through had we persisted with the same system? My opinion is no, it wouldn't have.

Whether this policy is also affecting the morale of our academy graduates, we can only speculate really.

ii) Unsure again, but perhaps there's now a greater focus on technique.

[JoeTerp]

If we wanted to win a U-18 league we could easily do so. Pacheco, Bruna, and many of the ressies would be eligible for the squad, and there is a lot of talent in the current set up at the U-18 team. (little worried about the defense, but there are so many defenders out on loan and young ones in the ressies that it doesnt matter)

Early in the season the team was flying high, playing good footy and scoring loads of goals, not exactly sure what has changed, but we have been terrible since christmas. Steve Irwin, the captain, has been playing with the reserves some of late, but we went south before that happened. Same goes with martin kelly playing with the reserves, and pacheco was never really that involved at the U-18 level for us (couple of youth cup and maybe 1 or 2 league appearances)

I have heard that Pourie had a bad reputation in Germany for being selfish and having a bad attitude, I think he has been banned from the national youth  level or something (same thing happened to Austrian Besian Idrizaj who has now been sold on). He also got a straight red early in the season and I have seen him mouth off referees even in the small 15 minute clips that they show weekly on the tv channel.

Good point about how Melwood is already over crowded with players, and that it is going to be very hard for these kids to get the call up, but there is certainly some talent in there: Eccelston, Ajdarevic, Amoo (lots of potential), Pourie, Irwin, Highdale, Kennedy, in that order is how I rank them, and Lauri Dalle Valle is supposed to be very talented but I haven't seen him play.  I wonder if it would be possible if we could put a team in the Pontin's Holiday League like Manchester City do. Then we would be able to evaluate more players over more games while training them at our own facilities.

I don' think it makes much sense to rely on the local talent well to supply us with our first team talent, but at the same time, it could get very expensive if we waited for players to prove their world class standing at other clubs before we brought them in at the age of 21 or even later. I think it makes sense to do international recruiting at the 16-18 year old level and bring in your best guess for the stars of tomorrow and then bring them up in the LFC system of playing after they have already developed most of their skill set abroad.

I do agree though that it is important that everyone at the club at all levels get on the same page, and maybe just maybe you can even blame some of this on H&G and certainly some on Parry. Once the ownership gets sorted out all the way, we need to reasses EVERYTHING about how the club is ran, clear out all the deadwood (both players and coaches) come up with a sound complete system and clearly define everyone's roles and goals

[account deleted by request]

The main problem I see from the "new policy" of signing 16 and 17 year olds from around the world, is it must increase the difficulty in persuading young players to join our Academy instead of say Man City's. If a young lad thinks he will just be shunted out as soon as he hits 16 because we will sign a more talented or hyped player from abroad, he is more likely to consider going to a club where perhaps the chances of progression are better. 

When you look at the players who have progressed through to the first teams in recent years from our catchment area, most of them (certainly the most well known) have been from Everton and Man City. So either our scouting system needs work or we arn't very successful in persuading the best "homegrown" young talent that their future lies here.

[JoeTerp]

The main problem I see from the "new policy" of signing 16 and 17 year olds from around the world, is it must increase the difficulty in persuading young players to join our Academy instead of say Man City's. If a young lad thinks he will just be shunted out as soon as he hits 16 because we will sign a more talented or hyped player from abroad, he is more likely to consider going to a club where perhaps the chances of progression are better. 

When you look at the players who have progressed through to the first teams in recent years from our catchment area, most of them (certainly the most well known) have been from Everton and Man City. So either our scouting system needs work or we arn't very successful in persuading the best "homegrown" young talent that their future lies here.

this was the trend before our "new policy" so I guess we decided to go after our own niche market instead of competing against the already successful city and Everton youth scouting and developing systems of the local English talent. And yes it may be discouraging but its probably better to not just assume that because you made the U16 squad that you automatically get promoted to the U18, you should have to earn your spot, might make the ones that do come "hungrier" in a way. 1) if you have World Class talent, your going to come through no matter what. 2) Wouldn't want players who have an attitude that they have a right to a spot on the team, I want players who embrace competition and have the confidence to beat it out

[god_bless_john_houlding]

something must be right, 2 youth cup wins and winning the reserve league, so we're not exactly failing in terms of success in the lower ranks, but even with that being all well and good, to make the process worth it three/four have to be coming through next year. From what I've seen/heard/read Insua, Plessis, Nemeth and Spearing seem to be the four most likely with Hobbs/San Jose covering if the centre half position needs strenghtening. Anderson/Hammill can also cover on the wingers. David Martin with any luck will be the number 2 keeper. So there's plenty of talent coming through or already made first team games.

[Ola Mr Benitez]

boys, boys...come on, kiss and make up. funny thing is kharhaz, I thought this type of story is the reason a lot of people come on forums like this.. thanks saint, I eenjoyed it!

[JoeTerp]

something must be right, 2 youth cup wins and winning the reserve league, so we're not exactly failing in terms of success in the lower ranks, but even with that being all well and good, to make the process worth it three/four have to be coming through next year. From what I've seen/heard/read Insua, Plessis, Nemeth and Spearing seem to be the four most likely with Hobbs/San Jose covering if the centre half position needs strenghtening. Anderson/Hammill can also cover on the wingers. David Martin with any luck will be the number 2 keeper. So there's plenty of talent coming through or already made first team games.

I think this concerns the even younger crop of kids, and Insua Plessis and Nemeth, although international are also sort of in a different category because they were brought straight into melwood. Then there is another category of international players brought in to play at the U-18 level, Ajdarevic, Bouzanis, Pourie, Kacaniklic, Martin Hansen, and Lauri Dalla Valle.  Miki Roque and Goodwin Antwi used to be in the category as well. I think this is just an over-hyped thing because nobody was caring when we bring in people like Jack Hobbs at 17, or Paul Anderson at 17, or Amoo or Eccelston who were brought in from Millwall and United respectively this summer. So the youth players at the academy who have come through the ranks should be used to having to deal with LFC constantly bringing in new talent for them to compete with, now its just done at an international level as well.

We have shown that we are looking for both English and international talent both at the U18 and reserve level, (Lucas and Babel are their own category, and we don't seem to be targeting English players of the same standing, i.e. Lennon, Noble, Richards, Agbonlahor, but we have been rumored to have been after Michael Johnson)  and that kids who are with the club since they are 9 years old are just going to have to deal with it and work that much harder if they want to make the grade, if they are the kind that shy away from competition, they can go to Everton.

GBJH is right in that all that REALLY matters is the jump from melwood to the first team but I think this conversation is dealing more with the U-18 to Melwood jump. And he is right in that it does look "on the cards" that someone is going to do it soon. But when it does happen it wont be the same (unless Spearing is the one that comes through) because even a player like Hobbs who won a youth cup, didn't come to the club till he was 17 so you can't really say that we brought him through the ranks, we just polished him off and got him some experience in both the reserve team and on loan spells.

[Roger Red Hat]

Great article Saint but I wasn't really that interested so I closed my eyes - trouble is everytime I open them the topic is still there cos I cant see where Im clicking. So I just clicked aimlessly and I appear to have purchased the new away kit, signed up to Sentana sports and PM' every fu.ker on here! - cool.

[account deleted by request]

We are talking about kids of between 10 and 15 Joe. How many are going to turn out to be world class? Most will become good prem players at best and just give up football at worst. I don't think its a case of them assuming they will progress, but without the prospect of a reasonable chance of progression whats the point? Players like Gerrard and Owen will no doubt have no problems wherever and whatever happens, but maybe young players like future Carra, Thompson, Wright, Warnocks (good pro's)etc will be looking to sign for other clubs rather than fight their way through the Academy only to find that instead of being given their chance some young player has been signed from Barca etc.

Its similar in a way to what happens with our reserves, we would rather play Crouch on the wing seemingly than give a reserve the chance. Maybe the reserves arnt ready or maybe they never will be, but unless they are given the chance we will never know. We have been short of wide players for a long while, how many of our reserves have been offered the opportunity to stake a claim for a place, and how often have we bought players or played established players out of position?

Hopefully things are beginning to change under Rafa, but the pressure to solve a problem by spending money rather than gambling on youth increases every year.





 

Insua, Plessis, Nemeth and Spearing seem to be the four most likely with Hobbs/San Jose covering if the centre half position needs strenghtening.

How many of those mentioned were developed by our youth system John?

[account deleted by request]

When Keegan first became manager of Newcastle, he did a cost evaluation of the youth and reserve set up and then shut it down! He was slated at the time for doing it, but his arguement was with the money saved he could afford to buy the players he needed (probably aided by the need for immediate success)rather than having to develop them himself. It was only when Dalglish took over that a youth system was re-introduced.

Maybe we should follow suit, abandon the reserves and youth teams and spend the money saved on poaching the top young talent from around the world. 

[JoeTerp]

I think it says a lot more about the local talent that does stick with it and does make it through, I think it builds up a better and stronger character that should increase their chances of being players for the 1st team one day. I am sure all little footballers in the youth ranks can only dream about playing for the first team one day. Well if they are brought up in a system where they are nearly guaranteed progression to the next level, they are going to develop a sense of entitlement (which might be what is going on now, and the fact that Pourie is probably a kunt). But its an honor and a privilege to play for LFC and if they are having to prove themselves worthy enough against the toughest of competition from an early age, it wont be anything new to them mentally when they want to make the breakthrough to the first team or make the breakthrough to Melwood. I know that we aren't going to sign Hungarian 12 year olds that are the next Kristian Nemeths   (probably illegal anyway) but the attitude will be around all the 12 year old local lads, "hey I better work hard at developing my skills and technical ability if I want any chance at earning my chance to play for the U18s" In the end, that kind of attitude could go towards helping us develop our local youth, and if not, oh well, we are going to try and get the best talent from all around the globe, and thats the end of it. No special passes for Liverpudlians.  I think thats the type of attitude that Jay Spearing has embraced. He does whatever it takes and adapts so that he can play for the club, and it drives him to become a better footballer.


And yes we need to do something about the "final jump" phase but I think one of the issues is with the wide players, was that we don't have much talent in our reserves in wide positions either and Leto struggled in his few opportunites, that probably delayed or cost other reserves their chance. If Hammill and Anderson weren't on loan, and still weren't given the chance despite Kewell's struggles and pennant's injury and Babel not being a true winger, then I would really take issue with Rafa, although the same can be said with Insua at LB, but its tough when we can play Arbeloa, Riise, and Aurelio there