Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

Taking it as a given that we were shaky in the first half today (I didn't see it but it seems to be a universally held belief on here), is it just a symptom of the fact that we aren't playing that well at the back or does it go deeper?

Is it simply a case of honing the zonal marking system and getting it right as we have done for sustained periods in the past, or is it time we ditched it and went man to man?

More worryingly, is there little wrong with the coaching or the system, but it's from a PERSONEL point of view that we have a problem? Do we need to buy that mythical "commanding" centre half, and until we do we are going to ship goals?



My take:

I know this much, teams which consistently concede goals from set-pieces don't win leagues. Teams which are poor and porous at the back don't win trophies, even if you do have a spunky front pairing as we do.

We won 3-2 at Bolton with a late winner, and 3-2 at West Ham with a late winner. Neither team will finish in the top six or seven, and I'm extremely concerned that teams such as that can score regularly against us. Against the better teams, we'll face more of a threat than either of these two represent and obviously we'll find it harder to score three times and dig ourselves out of the sh!te as well.

In the short term we've just got to keep working at it obviously. Our only viable option within the squad is the Greek bloke, and with the greatest of respect to him based on the one time I saw him, I don't think he's good enough for a sustained run in the team. Yes he looks like he's decent in the air, but the shortcomings in the other facets of his game mean that while he can do a job, he isn't the answer.

We probably have to work harder as I say on the training pitch, and perhaps look again at who picks up each zone and maybe reconfigure it. I do think Gerrard is more than capable of filling a more prominent role when defending corners, and he reminded us today for his goal (oh sorry kuyts goal ) that he is excellent in the air.

Longer term, as I said before this season started I think our need for a proper centre half is absolutely urgent. If we had a Ferdinand, a Vidic, a John Terry etc etc we'd be six or seven points better per season I should think. The nearest to that in England (and I say this not having seen how he went in the first 20 minutes or so today before he was injured) is Mathew Upson.

More likely though is that Rafa will go abroad to find one, but need one we do I'm absolutely certain of it.

[metalhead]

mate, I've been saying this for ages, even when I had a thread about our center backs and that a CB should have beena top priority in the summer. As much as people like Skrtel here, he isn't good enough, he just doesn't look like a top quality CB, decent squad player at best. Carragher is getting older.


We need a top class CB, we should go for that Hangelaand fella from Fulham, whatever the price, let G+H fork 15m for him.

[bigmick]

We need a top class CB, we should go for that Hangelaand fella from Fulham, whatever the price, let G+H fork 15m for him.

I saw him last season MH and liked him, but sometimes it can be a bit risky buying a player after one good season. If he's as good as he looked though, then he could be the one. I think Arsenal had a real good look at him in the Summer, and unless it goes pear shaped for him someone will take a punt on him before long I should think.

To be totally honest though I think it will be a big punt, I don't think you'll get him for less than 20 million quid if you went in in January.

[Sabre]

The Spanish second commentator couldn't believe that all our 9 goals came from set pieces situation. He also thinks Carra's past his best.

I don't know if this is Carraguer's age or simply a bad form that any player can have, but definitely he has to improve if he wants to play regularly. To make things worse Skrtel doesn't seem confident.

Just as Benayoun has been tried and apparently earned a regular starter status, I think we should try the Greek and see if he grabs his chance. We definitely have a problem in the back, and it affects not only when we are defending, also how we build up our game.

We need Agger back. But yes, there's no doubt that today's worst link were the CB. I actually liked pretty much everyone else in the pitch. Lucas was not brilliant but not bad and I think everyone else did a good job.

[account deleted by request]

As I said in our last few games, our CB'S are having to spend too much time defending out wide because we now have attacking fullbacks. The gap between our CB'S is wide enough at times to drive a tank through, which means they can't cover for each other as well as normal. This allows teams to then attack Carra's lack of pace or Skrtels diving into tackles he is not sure to win. Hopefully with some tactical adjustment this can be sorted...... otherwise we may have to start playing 3 at the back and only one defensive midfielder.

The problem at set pieces has become a nightmare, we just don't look capable of defending them and without a Hyppia type player we don't have many options. I think we may have to encourage Reina to come for a lot more crosses to help out.

[metalhead]

We need a top class CB, we should go for that Hangelaand fella from Fulham, whatever the price, let G+H fork 15m for him.

I saw him last season MH and liked him, but sometimes it can be a bit risky buying a player after one good season. If he's as good as he looked though, then he could be the one. I think Arsenal had a real good look at him in the Summer, and unless it goes pear shaped for him someone will take a punt on him before long I should think.

To be totally honest though I think it will be a big punt, I don't think you'll get him for less than 20 million quid if you went in in January.

He looks really good, I watched Fulham v Everton the other day, he was very good, I like him.

[JC_81]

The defence is definitely worrying.  The defending of set pieces especially.

I've up until now defended the zonal marking.  I think that in general it's a good system and in previous seasons it has served us well statistically.  Now I think it's time to scrap it.  The players clearly aren't comfortable with it and we look jittery at every set piece we have to defend.  Opposing teams have got used to playing against our system now and know how to exploit it, which is why it's less effective now than it was a few years ago.  I think we need a change.

Not all the problems are due to the system though.  Personnel is a problem too.  We have three good centre backs on the books (Carra, Skrtel and Agger) and the Greek lad who I'll reserve judgement on.  We don't have a top class centre back.  Carra was a few years back but he's been on the slide for a couple of seasons.  Today he had a nightmare, but he won't be that bad every week.  He's still a good player, just no longer a top class one imo.

It's not just the set pieces, the general defending has been slack this season.  None of our centre halves have any recovery pace which is also a weakness and none of them are dominant in the air.  All we can do for the moment is find the best combination, which is probably Carra/Agger, and hope a partnership develops that covers for their individual weaknesses.

[The_Rock]

Do we have any CB in our reserves who is dominant in the air and is pretty fast (not babel fast..... maybe "Ferdinand" pace ? 5 years and still no decent CB stepping up from the reserves ? 

[Reg]

Funny old game 'cos by playing Insua, Johnson, Fabio as attacking wing backs Rafa has greated 2 areas of concern:

1. We need the best CB's in the game to cover quick counters that leave us short at the back,
2. The attackers need to play more in the forward centre section of the pitch to receive the balls and create opportunities, otherwise the flanks become over crowded and if Torres is well man marked then its all for nowt.

I noticed Masher staying deep today in centre midfield covering in front of the 2 CB's but it didnt close the gap, we were torn apart down between the midfield and in front of Reina.

I'm not sure playing the single striker formation of last season will work with wing backs, we need at least Torres + one in the centre and probably Gerrad also floating 5 yards back as well.

So opportunities yes, but its created issues in other sections of the field.

[Redman in wales]

As I said in our last few games, our CB'S are having to spend too much time defending out wide because we now have attacking fullbacks. The gap between our CB'S is wide enough at times to drive a tank through, which means they can't cover for each other as well as normal. This allows teams to then attack Carra's lack of pace or Skrtels diving into tackles he is not sure to win. Hopefully with some tactical adjustment this can be sorted...... otherwise we may have to start playing 3 at the back and only one defensive midfielder.

The problem at set pieces has become a nightmare, we just don't look capable of defending them and without a Hyppia type player we don't have many options. I think we may have to encourage Reina to come for a lot more crosses to help out.

i have to say i haven't thought of it like that.. wingbacks playing more forward increasing the workload on the centrebacks - this probably does contribute to giving away more freekicks / corners.

but it still doesn't excuse the defending of those set pieces.. which has been p.iss poor this season. Whether our wingbacks stay back or not we're still gonna conceed corners and freekicks - so this is definately an area which needs immeadiate attention.

[Redman in wales]

for next season I definately think we need a commanding centreback who's good in the air. Not buying a 4th choice like we were contemplating this summer, but someone to come into our first 11.  A Hangeland, Upson etc. Or find someone like Vermaelen who looks a good buy for arsenal, not just for his goals either.

[Gerrard30391]

For the very first time tonight, i saw Carragher as weak link. OK, some of you are going to say "you've seen the light". But honest to God, he looked awful, lacked any kind of confidence and ability i.e. Letting Hinds in early on, lack of communcation with Masch which let them forward, the penalty (which i will post about soon in the match thread). I also thought that Skrtel looked a pile of to.

So in answer to your question, yes we do have a serious problem in that area. I would welcome a go at Agger and the Big Greek (Can't remember how to spell his name )

Not only is it confind to the CB spot either, if we aren't careful, and Insua plays as bad as he did today, we're left with a good, at best, LB in Aurelio then Dossena.

The more you look at our squad, the more you think, well i wasted that £10 i put on us in July!

[bigmick]

I just watched that Burnley Sunderland game, and I'm fecking glad we didn't end up getting that Michael Turner based on that, he was fecking terrible. Totally at fault for Nugents first goal, and mostly at fault for his second.

[maguskwt]

Bigmick, before we jump on zonal marking, the goal conceded from the set-piece against West Ham was simply not being able to win the header. It wasn't because of zonal marking. Carra and Skrtl was right there sandwiching Cole. IE. they were basically 'marking' him just like in man-marking. It was a combination of carra not being good in the air to outjump cole, Skrtl not being strong enough to dislodge cole from his position and Cole being spot on with his positioning.

Having said that I do agree that the CB's are our weak link at the moment just like what Sabre said. And I do agree that we have to improve in this area. First of all, as much as I like Carragher, he is not the most talented CB. He was never as solid as Hyppia was. His quality is in his concentration, determination and fighting spirit. His countless last minute tackles have saved the team alot of goals. But nowadays I don't know whether it's his age or he has just lost his concentration because he seems to be abit confused on the pitch. Now he's prone to mistimed tackles which has cost us penalties, bad decision making where he keeps clashing with his partner. We have seen that last season and I'm afraid he might still be doing it this season. To top that off neither he nor Skrtl are particularly good in the air. Skrtl should be better because he's taller and has a bigger physique but he's not much better than Carra. Reina IMO has also somewhat contributed to our weak set-piece defending in the sense that he's not particularly strong in the air or dealing at crosses and prone to flapping his hands in the air. All these combinations will always be a problem for us against teams who has tall and strong centre fowards like Cole. We really need to have a plan when we play against Chelsea and Man City, and also nowadays Arsenal has been scoring goals with headers with players who are strong in the air like Gallas, Eboue, and that Vermaellean or whatever his name is. This really is a worry.

I believe that Carra needs some time off, much needed rest. I hope Agger can come back and give stability in terms of his ball holding and positioning, and yes we might have to give the Greek an opportunity. He is strong in the air. I am not at all disheartened by his first display for us. He had shown that he can be neat on the ball. All he needs to do is to establish some understanding with other defenders, and build his confidence. Whoever defender we buy he would need to get use to his partners before he can settle down and be solid. And we already have bought one. Let's give him a proper chance before splashing the cash on another. I.E. if we do have the cash...

[bigmick]

Bigmick, before we jump on zonal marking,

Think you've got me mixed up with someone else Magus, I've been one of its biggest advocates on here.