Liverpool FC Forum

[Owzat]

Last time Crouch was sent off was his last game for that club (Southampton drawing 2-2 at palace on 7th May 2005) There are only three games until the transfer window opens...................



On a serious note though, last night's defeat was the third in four games. I've done a check and that's the FIFTH instance were Liverpool have lost three out of four under Rafa.

3 out of 4

20/09/04 Man Utd 2-1 Liverpool
25/09/04 Liverpool 3-0 Norwich
28/09/04 Olympiakos 1-0 Liverpool
03/10/04 Chelsea 1-0 Liverpool

3 in a row

15/01/05 Liverpool 0-1 Man Utd
18/01/05 Burnley 1-0 Liverpool
22/01/05 Southampton 2-0 Liverpool

3 out of 4

12/02/05 Birmingham 2-0 Liverpool
22/02/05 Liverpool 3-1 Bayer Leverkeusen
27/02/05 Liverpool 2-3 Chelsea (League Cup Final)
05/03/05 Newcastle 1-0 Liverpool

Liverpool did not lose 3 out of 4 at all in 2005/6

3 out of 4

25/04/07 Chelsea 1-0 Liverpool
28/04/07 Portsmouth 2-1 Liverpool
01/05/07 Liverpool 1-0 Chelsea (CL Semi)
05/05/07 Fulham 1-0 Liverpool

3 out of 4

08/12/07 Reading 3-1 Liverpool
11/12/07 Marseille 0-4 Liverpool
16/12/07 Liverpool 1-0 Man Utd
19/12/07 Chelsea 2-0 Liverpool

All five involved at least one match against Chelsea or Man Utd, three out of five involved two matches against Chelsea and/or Man Utd. Those observant among you would note that I could technically have counted the three in a row twice.

While three of those runs were in his first season, he has done it twice since.

As well as losing three in a row once, Rafa has also lost two in a row ELEVEN times. So only 26 of his 51 defeats as Liverpool manager have been standalone defeats (about half)

[112-1077774096]

whichever way you look at it mate its not good enough, rafa does not have what it takes to win the league unless he changes track

[Ciggy]

Saturday, 22 December 2007 - Barclays Premier League - Liverpool v Portsmouth, 15:00

Wednesday, 26 December 2007 - Barclays Premier League - Derby v Liverpool, 15:00

Sunday, 30 December 2007 - Barclays Premier League - Man City v Liverpool, 16:00

Wednesday, 02 January 2008 - Barclays Premier League - Liverpool v Wigan, 20:00

If we dont get twelve points from those games, then theres something seriously wrong.

[112-1077774096]

Saturday, 22 December 2007 - Barclays Premier League - Liverpool v Portsmouth, 15:00

Wednesday, 26 December 2007 - Barclays Premier League - Derby v Liverpool, 15:00

Sunday, 30 December 2007 - Barclays Premier League - Man City v Liverpool, 16:00

Wednesday, 02 January 2008 - Barclays Premier League - Liverpool v Wigan, 20:00

If we dont get twelve points from those games, then theres something seriously wrong.

agreed

[bigmick]

I don't want to appear pessimistic, but twelve points from those games will be a really good effort in my view. I think FWIW we will beat Portsmouth on Saturday, largely because as I've said we won't leave our best players on the bench this time, but it's absolutely no pushover. They've possibly gone slightly off the boil, but it's worth considering that they are level on pionts with us at the moment (and people wonder why some write off our title challenge) although we do have a game in hand. They've got some good players, a decent striker and a good defence and they will be tricky to roll over. I think we will but it won't be easy.

Derby Away is obviously a penalty kick, and we could safely give Leon his third appearance of the season in goal. It should be a goal difference job.

Asa non-rotationalist I would advocate leaving Leon between the sticks for the Wigan game. Though they aren't as bad as Derby, they are pretty sh!te. There is always the danger though that Steve Bruce will set them up to defend deep and render the selection of Torres completely pointless, we'll have to see on that one.

The last game Away to Citeh is a difficult match. They are rank when on their travels but good at Home. We are currently three points BEHIND them, but we do have the luxury of a game in hand which if we win, our superior goal difference will edge them out.

I think we could win all four, but it certainly won't be easy. You've also got to factor in the "Rafa style" with the games coming thick and fast. We'll certainly be "using the squad" and "giving ourselves more options" so out of the four games, we're almost certainly going to be scratching our heads a couple of times.

My money would be on ten points from twelve, which in all honesty will be a decent return. I actually don't think any of the other top teams will win all four over the holiday period either so it will be by no means a disaster.

[bigmick]

On the stats in the original post, they are very interesting. I've had this little hunch (just for LFC that one  ) for a while now that our supposed confidence whilst in a good run seems to be poppable by a single bad result or dodgy performance. This seems to be particularly the case if our dodgy performance and defeat comes in a game which has seen an overuse of the Rafastyle in the selection.

It seemed to me when we voluntarily derailed ourselves atr Fratton Park that in subsequent matches we just seemed to go to pieces. All that confidence which had been built up, all that momentum just evaporated in the snap of a finger. Once we'd lost it we well and truly lost it. As an illustration, we lost two games back to back int he Champions league against teams we subsequently beat 8-0 and 4-0 away respectively. I think it's fair to say that when we played them the first time, we were well and truly in our "blip".

I've got this theory which might well be utter b0ll0cks (lets face it most of them are) that it's caused, this "poppability" by over-rotation (well it wouldn't be anything else would it ?    ). I think it's that we haven't got the option of going "back to basics" in a crisis like some teams have. We can't, like Man Utd did at the start of the season when they started terribly, pick the guts of their best team and grind it out, simply because we don'ty play it often enough to remember what it is or was.

No doubt someone will prove me wrong with some line-ups or whatever, but there must be some other reason that we can go from being excellent in a series of games, and then one bad performance renders us clueless for a few weeks.

[kalos]

BM- I think there's a lot of sens in what you say.

I also think it goes a bit deeper than over R------n

Seems to me that the weight of expectation is a massive factor. There seems to be FAR too much talk about winning the title before a ball is kicked in anger among the players as well as the press (Liverpool spent £ x million blah blah title blah)

I also believe that Benitez has not cracked the "winning mentality " when it comes to his players ..is that partly down to the "R" word ...? Possibly.

One thing is for sure Ferguson and Mourinho (even Wenger) have won the title mainly down to the right MENTALITY as well as the players they have.

Benitez never seems to be able to quite get us up for a fight against the other big guns and when was the last time we came from behind to get a draw or even win against them..? I can't rememebr ..and that says it all in term of ability AND IMHO as well as self belief.

Winning is a state of mind as well- we simply don't have it CONSISTENTLY yet and we need to learn it FAST..best way would be 4 wins out of 4 over Xmas. You have to get into the habit of winning to really believe in yourself and your team.

[112-1077774096]

BM- I think there's a lot of sens in what you say.

I also think it goes a bit deeper than over R------n

Seems to me that the weight of expectation is a massive factor. There seems to be FAR too much talk about winning the title before a ball is kicked in anger among the players as well as the press (Liverpool spent £ x million blah blah title blah)

I also believe that Benitez has not cracked the "winning mentality " when it comes to his players ..is that partly down to the "R" word ...? Possibly.

One thing is for sure Ferguson and Mourinho (even Wenger) have won the title mainly down to the right MENTALITY as well as the players they have.

Benitez never seems to be able to quite get us up for a fight against the other big guns and when was the last time we came from behind to get a draw or even win against them..? I can't rememebr ..and that says it all in term of ability AND IMHO as well as self belief.

Winning is a state of mind as well- we simply don't have it CONSISTENTLY yet and we need to learn it FAST..best way would be 4 wins out of 4 over Xmas. You have to get into the habit of winning to really believe in yourself and your team.

mate we were back in the winning habit until another ludicrous team selection agaisnt reading

[66-1112520797]

BM- I think there's a lot of sens in what you say.

I also think it goes a bit deeper than over R------n

Seems to me that the weight of expectation is a massive factor. There seems to be FAR too much talk about winning the title before a ball is kicked in anger among the players as well as the press (Liverpool spent £ x million blah blah title blah)

I also believe that Benitez has not cracked the "winning mentality " when it comes to his players ..is that partly down to the "R" word ...? Possibly.

One thing is for sure Ferguson and Mourinho (even Wenger) have won the title mainly down to the right MENTALITY as well as the players they have.

Benitez never seems to be able to quite get us up for a fight against the other big guns and when was the last time we came from behind to get a draw or even win against them..? I can't rememebr ..and that says it all in term of ability AND IMHO as well as self belief.

Winning is a state of mind as well- we simply don't have it CONSISTENTLY yet and we need to learn it FAST..best way would be 4 wins out of 4 over Xmas. You have to get into the habit of winning to really believe in yourself and your team.

I reckon you might have a point there Kalos, good post.

[bigmick]

Yes we seem to be able to come back in Europe, and against everyone else other than the big four. Against them though, we only seem to get results if we score first. That said of course they've got a better defence than lesser teams so maybe the explanation is as simple as that. The belief thing does seem to be an issue though, and it's probably going to be a telling stat that in our three Home games against the other big teams,we scored first in two of them yet got pegged back in both while in the game where we conceded first, we of course got beaten 1-0.

Against Chelsea we didn't seem to lack belief though it has to be said. Only a desperately poor refereeing decision cost us, but certainly against Arsenal though many posters at the time said we deserved the lead etc etc, I personally thought the equalising  goal had been coming for a while (despite in the moments before it being scored actually starting to think they had ran out of ideas). Once again contrast to that, I personally didn't think we were going to score in the second half against Man Utd except for perhaps with Gerrards free-kick in the dying moments. A combination of a very good defense and a performance from us which distinctly lacked attacking verve meant that to me anyway, they always looked fairly comfortable second half.

If it is just a coincidence that we can't seem to beat the other top teams in the league we are going to need the tide to turn soon. If there is a deeper reason, then obviously we need a speedy solution as any possible chance we may have in the League this season will certainly depend on us picking up I would have thought at the very least, four points out of those three away matches.

[europian-kings]

3 out of 4

08/12/07 Reading 3-1 Liverpool
11/12/07 Marseille 0-4 Liverpool
16/12/07 Liverpool 1-0 Man Utd <<< i wish
19/12/07 Chelsea 2-0 Liverpool

 

[account deleted by request]

Some very good points made, none of which I would say are right but all have a small bearing on our "difficuties". I think we struggle to come back in the big prem games because we just arn't patient enough, quickly resorting to pumping the long ball into the box , which the top sides just eat up.

If you think back to our greatest combacks under Rafa, Milan and Olympiacos , NONE of our goals was created by a panic ridden lump into the area from the half way line. Against the lesser sides we have seen some success using this method but against top sides its just a quick way of giving  possession away . We need more controlled aggression, passing and patience. The worst culprit for me is Gerrard, who as soon as we go a goal down seems to be so determined to inspire yet another fightback that he deserts his midfield role leaving his midfield partner struggling and starts playing Hollywood passes and desperate charges forward. This is probably due to his lack of faith in our other forward players (excluding Torres).

Again our finishing in the big games, tends to be hurried and snatched at, we make good chances only for the finish to be missing. Cisse at the mancs, and Torres and Kewell on Saturday being examples of good chances going begging before the opposition scored.

[Dundalk]

Just found this site.

http://www.sportsclubstats.com/England/PremierLeague.html

For all you stat heads out there

[stmichael]

3 in a row

15/01/05 Liverpool 0-1 Man Utd
18/01/05 Burnley 1-0 Liverpool
22/01/05 Southampton 2-0 Liverpool

shudders

[Dundalk]

^^^^^^^^^

There were bigger fish to fry that year