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Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby 115-1073096938 » Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:15 pm

Pennant has the ability over Wright-Phillips, I believe Wright-Phillips may score more goals, but he'll never give you what Pennant could. Any good international manager would make sure his discipline problems were sorted out.

On Lampard, he's one of the most overated players in the country. Yes he's quality, i'll never dispute that, but you compare Scholes at his best to what Lampard gives a team and there is no comparrison at all. Parker is a good alround midfielder, while he wouldn't give you the goal threat Lampard would give you i believe he'd give far better balance with Gerrard (who is a better player than Lampard). Parker is also a clever player when going forward, he's tricky, skillfull and can spot a pass.

On the left i'd go with Barry everytime. He's left footed, proven quality and versitile. Yet Sven would rather player Gerrard or Cole or someone else in there. He makes poor decisions. For me, i'd even try Cole and Gerrard in the centre and see what happens. It can't be worse than Stevie an Lampard can it?

The image in my head of Lampard is simple, i remember Gerrard tracking Zidane 40 yards and bringing him to ground with a fantastic tackle and i remember Lampard in confronting him 30 yards from goal, buming into him, falling on his :censored: and getting nowhere near Zidane.

Lampard can't compete with the best players he always goes missing in games. When's he ever "ran the show" against us? When's he done it against the Mancs, the :censored: or even Spurs?

Yes he scores alot of goals, he's great at that, one of the best, but to suggest his alround game is of the same standard in my opinion is quite laughable.
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Postby stmichael » Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:31 pm

I agree that Lampard is completely overrated. He looks so good at Chelsea because he has no defensive responsibility whatsoever.

Pires scored 15-20 goals for 3 seasons in a row at Arsenal but I didn't hear people labelling him as the "best midfielder in the world".
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Postby Ace Ventura » Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:33 pm

I agree if you take Lampards goals away he is quite average.
I also dont think he is in the same class as Gerrard who has an all round midfield game, but at the end of the day whatever you say about lampard he will score goals and it is in games that count.
Remember the 2 away at Bayern Munich for Chelsea ?
I like Parker and he deserves a chance, he also has a good all round midfield game and as i previously said i think they could play Parker in the holding role with Gerrard Lampard and Beckham ahead of him,we dont have any width in the team with cole and beckham in them areas anyway so it shouldnt affect the balance too much. It would just give the back 4 some guaranteed protection. imo to take Lampard out of the England team is laughable...he was our top scorer in the qualifiers...love him or hate him.
Last edited by Ace Ventura on Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Santa » Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:48 pm

stu_the_red wrote:
stmichael wrote:
stu_the_red wrote:He has Marcus Bent and Defoe who never seem to get anywhere near the team despite showing masses of potential and ability.

nearly fell off my seat there stu.

i presume you mean darren bent? please tell me you do. :D

No i meant the lad from Everton :blush:

I dunno why i keep getting them mixed up. (yes i meant Darren).

Kevin Beattie...anyone?  :laugh:
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Postby 115-1073096938 » Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:51 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:I agree if you take Lampards goals away he is quite average.
I also dont think he is in the same class as Gerrard who has an all round midfield game, but at the end of the day whatever you say about lampard he will score goals and it is in games that count.
Remember the 2 away at Bayern Munich for Chelsea ?
I like Parker and he deserves a chance, he also has a good all round midfield game and as i previously said i think they could play Parker in the holding role with Gerrard Lampard and Beckham ahead of him,we dont have any width in the team with cole and beckham in them areas anyway so it shouldnt affect the balance too much. It would just give the back 4 some guaranteed protection. imo to take Lampard out of the England team is laughable...he was our top scorer in the qualifiers...love him or hate him.

The thing is, you need to effect the balance as this clearly isn't workin.

Barry, Parker, Gerrard and Beckham has balance.
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Postby 115-1073096938 » Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:51 pm

Santa wrote:
stu_the_red wrote:
stmichael wrote:
stu_the_red wrote:He has Marcus Bent and Defoe who never seem to get anywhere near the team despite showing masses of potential and ability.

nearly fell off my seat there stu.

i presume you mean darren bent? please tell me you do. :D

No i meant the lad from Everton :blush:

I dunno why i keep getting them mixed up. (yes i meant Darren).

Kevin Beattie...anyone?  :laugh:

:censored: off. :(

:laugh:
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Postby JC_81 » Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:31 am

stu_the_red wrote:Holding midfielder Ledley King?

Don't make laugh. As good a player as he is he's not a centre mid, do that against a good side and you'll come unstuck.

Parker or even Carrick (who i don't think is brilliant but is a good player) should be in there.

The team balence is incorrect with Lampard in the centre, yet he refuses to find another alternative to him. Parker for me is a better player than Lampard or is at least as good, due to Franks reputation though, he keeps his place. Gerrard and Lampard will not give you the right balance.

He then has Dean Ashton, who is the typical old style centre forward, he's got good skill, decent pace, very strong, superb in the air, very intelligent with his passing and build up play and knows where the net is. Yet he continues to look at the likes or Crouch and Heskey, while both players have decent ability, neither are what you would call top quality.

He has Darren Bent and Defoe who never seem to get anywhere near the team despite showing masses of potential and ability.

He lets Beckham drift all over the show which helps lose the balence. The problem is, now people believe Beckham isn't the player he was, he's still a class act, just used wrongly. His crossing and passing are still second to none and he's still probably one of the best right sided (not central) midfield players in world football.

You then have the left side. He's tried the world and his wife there. Yet he won't give Gareth Barry a go. Who is easily the best player at Villa and easily one of the most consistent players in the country. Very much like Finnan in that he's solid rather than spectacular but he knows how to defend, can deliever a cross, add width and generally knows how to play left midfield and left back. A good player who's never had a look in down to Svens cluelessness.

Jermaine Pennant. Again, a quality player with alot in his locker, better than Wright-Phillips alround and doesn't get a look in. Sven might tell you its down to discipline, yet i know the fact is its because he hasn't got a clue. :)

Lee Bowyer is another one who should be in and around the squad, i can however understand him not being picked.

Stewart Downing and even Steven Warnock should be in and around the squad. Yet he doesn't bat an eyelid in there direction without a shove. Danny Murphy could be in and around the squad, Kirkland, Robinson and Green should be the goalkeepers, yet he keeps picking James...

The mans clueless, i won't even go into his tactical play....

A lot of good points Stu, agree with a fair few of them.

The (lack of) balance in the England midfield is the root of all their problems.  On the left Joe Cole has improved his end-product over the last year at club level, but he's not International class, his decision-making isn't good enough, wastes the ball too much. 

Gerrard and Lampard don't function together, simple as that, they both can't play in the centre.  And on the right, I don't think Beckham is half as dangerous as he was at his peak with United.  Not entirely his fault as he has played out right, then centre mid, then out right again constantly over the last few years for both club and country.  But I don't think he gets into as many crossing positions as he used to (and crossing is his main attribute) and he is too fond of the long pass, he neglects the simple parts of his game.  He can't play centrally imo as he is atrocious at tackling.  As for being captain, he handles the media well and is a good ambassador, but he is not a leader on the pitch.  The younger players look more to Campbell, Terry and even Gary Neville for leadership I think.

Don't agree with Gareth Barry, I think he is a good premiership player but he's not an International.  I don't see what the obsession is with England in terms of having no naturally left sided wingers.  Chelsea are effective with Duff and Robben out wide who are both left footed, so why can't England play 2 good right footed wingers and make it work?  Also Pennant is good, but better than SWP?  Not sure about that Stu to be honest.  A better crosser yes, but SWP is quality, he's a better dribbler and carries more of a goal threat.  They are quite different players but I'd still go with SWP over Pennant.

Personally this is the midfield I'd go with, ignoring reputations:

(Left) Wright-Phillips    Lampard    Parker      Gerrard (Right)

Gerrard and SWP can swap wings and Parker can sit and allow Lampard to go forward
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Postby 66-1120597113 » Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:47 am

That is the right midfield John and i can see why you pick Parker!!
It may be a surprise to some but he is one of the best CM in the country and deserves a spot on merit!!
Gerrard on thre right...yes so he can get more practice in for us as we need him there!! Nah but seriously hes up for it and good enough,can cross,can cut in when needed and also has the footballing brain to stay there when needed and drift back when required! Lampard..?? Well he's good aint he.. he can score and has the best goals per game ratio about for a midfielder!!
SWP...just give the wee fecker the ball,he'll knock it by and go under yer legs!!
Right enough though thats th M/F i would pick,no way Sven will though,he'll always start golden balls!!
Btw Beckham has been worldclass for R Madrid has anyone been watching??
Still he wouldnt fit into my England team!!
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Postby JC_81 » Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:10 am

BarryBelfast wrote:Right enough though thats th M/F i would pick,no way Sven will though,he'll always start golden balls!!
Btw Beckham has been worldclass for R Madrid has anyone been watching??
Still he wouldnt fit into my England team!!

I know Barry, It's a :censored: disgrace Beckham starts every game for England, never mind being captain.  When was the last time he produced a match-winning display for them?  A long time ago, and for the captain that's not good enough.

To be honest I've not been watching the Spanish league this season, but it doesn't really matter, judging Beckham by his England performances he shouldn't be playing.  Time to give others a chance.
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Postby Espionage » Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:36 am

you cant just completely ignore his club football. He has been seeing probably his best form since joining Real Madrid in the last couple of weeks
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Postby Sabre » Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:38 am

To be honest I've not been watching the Spanish league this season, but it doesn't really matter, judging Beckham by his England performances he shouldn't be playing.  Time to give others a chance.


I don't feel qualified to post about Beckham should be on the english squad, every poster here knows the english pool of players better than me.

But I'll tell something about Beckham in Spain.

I remember when Madrid signed him. I thought "I'll make feel him like at home" (1) , the manure posh b*astard who comes to one of the teams I hate most.

But he earned my respect on the pitch, and the respect of all Anoeta, who I guarantee you, won't forgive anything to any Real Mandril player. Owen and Beckham though, both managed to avoid our insults and despective songs. Details like throwing the ball away when one of our players wereinjured on the pitch, no uglyness when tackling, no diving and no ref whinning, made the trick for this.

Footballistically he also earned my respect. His aptitudes for set pieces, corners, free kicks, are very important to put the  3 points in the pocket at the end of the day. He has good long balls, and all that make him more than a decent player. It's not easy to tryumpg at Real Madrid. Ask Robinho. They want good performances from the very beginning, they are not so pacient like you (and I think this patience makes you better crowd). So I must say I was wrong when I thought he was just a good player with lots of propaganda and media surrounding him. He's truly world class, IMHO.

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Postby 66-1120597113 » Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:42 am

Espionage wrote:what about his current from for Real Madrid, how can you argue with that??

Because its for Real Madrid and not England!!
In Spain Beckham is on a 1 man mission to prove himself and yes he has been fantastic,id say their most important player this season!!
But when he pulls on the captains band for England he seems to think ..job done!! 
He's wrong Captains need to work harder than the rest not pull on the band and drown in the glory of it all!
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Postby 76-1115222408 » Fri Nov 11, 2005 1:50 am

john craig wrote:I know Barry, It's a :censored: disgrace Beckham starts every game for England, never mind being captain.  When was the last time he produced a match-winning display for them?  A long time ago, and for the captain that's not good enough.

To be honest I've not been watching the Spanish league this season, but it doesn't really matter, judging Beckham by his England performances he shouldn't be playing.  Time to give others a chance.

Beckham IMO reached his career peak in that game against Greece in qualifying for Japan/Korea!
Though I hate the guy, and apart from crossing/free kicks, dont really rate him, he played like a man on a serious one man mission, and really dragged the team to that victory!
But as soon as that free kick hit the back of the net, he had reahed his peak, and it has been downhill from there (though he has shown good recent form under Real, he is not the same IMO!).
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Postby 115-1073096938 » Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:09 am

john craig wrote:
stu_the_red wrote:Holding midfielder Ledley King?

Don't make laugh. As good a player as he is he's not a centre mid, do that against a good side and you'll come unstuck.

Parker or even Carrick (who i don't think is brilliant but is a good player) should be in there.

The team balence is incorrect with Lampard in the centre, yet he refuses to find another alternative to him. Parker for me is a better player than Lampard or is at least as good, due to Franks reputation though, he keeps his place. Gerrard and Lampard will not give you the right balance.

He then has Dean Ashton, who is the typical old style centre forward, he's got good skill, decent pace, very strong, superb in the air, very intelligent with his passing and build up play and knows where the net is. Yet he continues to look at the likes or Crouch and Heskey, while both players have decent ability, neither are what you would call top quality.

He has Darren Bent and Defoe who never seem to get anywhere near the team despite showing masses of potential and ability.

He lets Beckham drift all over the show which helps lose the balence. The problem is, now people believe Beckham isn't the player he was, he's still a class act, just used wrongly. His crossing and passing are still second to none and he's still probably one of the best right sided (not central) midfield players in world football.

You then have the left side. He's tried the world and his wife there. Yet he won't give Gareth Barry a go. Who is easily the best player at Villa and easily one of the most consistent players in the country. Very much like Finnan in that he's solid rather than spectacular but he knows how to defend, can deliever a cross, add width and generally knows how to play left midfield and left back. A good player who's never had a look in down to Svens cluelessness.

Jermaine Pennant. Again, a quality player with alot in his locker, better than Wright-Phillips alround and doesn't get a look in. Sven might tell you its down to discipline, yet i know the fact is its because he hasn't got a clue. :)

Lee Bowyer is another one who should be in and around the squad, i can however understand him not being picked.

Stewart Downing and even Steven Warnock should be in and around the squad. Yet he doesn't bat an eyelid in there direction without a shove. Danny Murphy could be in and around the squad, Kirkland, Robinson and Green should be the goalkeepers, yet he keeps picking James...

The mans clueless, i won't even go into his tactical play....

A lot of good points Stu, agree with a fair few of them.

The (lack of) balance in the England midfield is the root of all their problems.  On the left Joe Cole has improved his end-product over the last year at club level, but he's not International class, his decision-making isn't good enough, wastes the ball too much. 

Gerrard and Lampard don't function together, simple as that, they both can't play in the centre.  And on the right, I don't think Beckham is half as dangerous as he was at his peak with United.  Not entirely his fault as he has played out right, then centre mid, then out right again constantly over the last few years for both club and country.  But I don't think he gets into as many crossing positions as he used to (and crossing is his main attribute) and he is too fond of the long pass, he neglects the simple parts of his game.  He can't play centrally imo as he is atrocious at tackling.  As for being captain, he handles the media well and is a good ambassador, but he is not a leader on the pitch.  The younger players look more to Campbell, Terry and even Gary Neville for leadership I think.

Don't agree with Gareth Barry, I think he is a good premiership player but he's not an International.  I don't see what the obsession is with England in terms of having no naturally left sided wingers.  Chelsea are effective with Duff and Robben out wide who are both left footed, so why can't England play 2 good right footed wingers and make it work?  Also Pennant is good, but better than SWP?  Not sure about that Stu to be honest.  A better crosser yes, but SWP is quality, he's a better dribbler and carries more of a goal threat.  They are quite different players but I'd still go with SWP over Pennant.

Personally this is the midfield I'd go with, ignoring reputations:

(Left) Wright-Phillips    Lampard    Parker      Gerrard (Right)

Gerrard and SWP can swap wings and Parker can sit and allow Lampard to go forward

Wright-Phillips carries a bigger goal threat.

However, technically and in terms of skill, Pennant is far better. His technique and ability to cross and run the line is second to hardly anyone. He'd be a great signing for us and in my opinion could easily become one of the best wingers in the world. People don't realise how good the lad is, i don't even think he realises. He has unbelievable ability. Wright-Phillips is a decent player, a good player infact, nothing more though. Pennant is potentially top class.

As for Barry, everytime i've seen Villa, he's there best player, he's a footballer. He has a very solid alround game and is as much an international player as Lampard yet he's never given a chance, he'd suprise alot of people if they saw him regularly. Ask any Villa fan if they think he's there best or second best player, i'd be suprised if they didn't agree.

I don't agree about Cole either, he's quality. He's simply playing in the wrong position, he's a centre mid. He works hard and has ability and create things. He's not, never has been and never will be a winger.

I remember him roasting Vieira in a game against West Ham (1-1 i think) a few seasons ago, it wasn't a case of him getting lucky, he simply took the :censored: and had a blinder against the best midfielder in the world. Superb performance, the lads a centre mid. None of this holding midfielder :censored:, he's a centre mid and thats that.

All these arsewholes who talk about players having to do certain jobs :censored: me off. Players have a natural game, you get them to play there natural game to exploit there best attitributes then pick the players that compliment each other then presto it clicks.

On Beckham, he's clearly the same player, however he runs the team and Sven hasn't got the balls to put him in his place. If he's on the right and worked into positions he'll do the business.
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Postby A.B. » Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:24 am

Downing would be the solution imo for the left-flank but right now he has injury problems. He played very well last season, impressive player.
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