Liverpool FC Forum

[SouthCoastShankly]

Two games in and we can consider ourselves unlucky to be so low in the league.

The City game was poor, very poor. In all aspects. But in contrast the Arsenal game had all the indicators of a successful season - good work ethic, belief and team work.

So instead of 3 points, we have 1, but we have the opportunity to bounce back now. Our next two games should result in nothing short of 6 points if we are to stand any chance against Man Utd and inevitably a top four finish.

West Brom (H) - We should be looking to smash a comfortable number past these lot. Never finished above 17th in the premier league.

Birmingham (A) - In the past it has been a tricky away game for us. A good win against West Brom is key, we need to take confidence into this game and generate some momentum before we face Man Utd.

[Ben Patrick]

Two games in and we can consider ourselves unlucky to be so low in the league.

The City game was poor, very poor. In all aspects. But in contrast the Arsenal game had all the indicators of a successful season - good work ethic, belief and team work.

So instead of 3 points, we have 1, but we have the opportunity to bounce back now. Our next two games should result in nothing short of 6 points if we are to stand any chance against Man Utd and inevitably a top four finish.

West Brom (H) - We should be looking to smash a comfortable number past these lot. Never finished above 17th in the premier league.

Birmingham (A) - In the past it has been a tricky away game for us. A good win against West Brom is key, we need to take confidence into this game and generate some momentum before we face Man Utd.

How we respond is obviously vital to push on this season.
West Brom at home is a game where hopefully they will come and try and play football. They won their last game which strangely for me makes it better for us. They are less likely to come and just put everyone behind the ball now i feel.
It's a game we should win comfortably. If we do this then we go on to St Andrews feeling like we have started our league off finally.
The fixtures have not been kind to Roy at all as he is still in the process of shaping his side and how he wants it to play. But those games are gone now and we could have lost them at any stage of the season.
Birmingham away has notoriously been difficult for us but we should be going there and looking at winning.
Too often in the past the way we were set out away from home was too negative. I just hope last nights defeat doesnt bring that from our new manager.

[metalhead]

Let's hope we gain some confidence beating WBA, and get a momentum going again. I hope Roy sees that some players aren't good enough to start, if we end up playing 4-4-2 next week I would like to see a Gerrard-Poulsen axis. Scrap agger as left back, play aurelio and get agger and carragher in the middle.

We have to bounce back or we will have another bad season if we don't

[In and Out]

It was just a blip, we'll do WBA and bounce back.

[Benny The Noon]

Im not sure how we can consider ourselves to be unlucky to be so low - we have got what we deserved so far and it needs to change .

good work ethic, belief and team work are all words used to describe a few players yet it has been mentioned many times that it isnt enough

We need to create more chances , we need to be better on the ball , we need to get hold of the ball - we are getting beaten in the middle of the park and we have no imagination or cutting edge up front .

Hopefully that will change as Torres gets sharper but we could easily be way behind and out of Europa league within the next 4 games .

We cant go to West Brom with the same set up and formation or we will not win .

The problem is we dont have the squad to change much .

[Ben Patrick]

Im not sure how we can consider ourselves to be unlucky to be so low - we have got what we deserved so far and it needs to change .

good work ethic, belief and team work are all words used to describe a few players yet it has been mentioned many times that it isnt enough

We need to create more chances , we need to be better on the ball , we need to get hold of the ball - we are getting beaten in the middle of the park and we have no imagination or cutting edge up front .

Hopefully that will change as Torres gets sharper but we could easily be way behind and out of Europa league within the next 4 games .

We cant go to West Brom with the same set up and formation or we will not win .

The problem is we dont have the squad to change much .

The game is at home not away.

And i think we would beat west brom if we played 4-4-2 with that same lineup without too much of a problem.

[Benny The Noon]

Im not sure how we can consider ourselves to be unlucky to be so low - we have got what we deserved so far and it needs to change .

good work ethic, belief and team work are all words used to describe a few players yet it has been mentioned many times that it isnt enough

We need to create more chances , we need to be better on the ball , we need to get hold of the ball - we are getting beaten in the middle of the park and we have no imagination or cutting edge up front .

Hopefully that will change as Torres gets sharper but we could easily be way behind and out of Europa league within the next 4 games .

We cant go to West Brom with the same set up and formation or we will not win .

The problem is we dont have the squad to change much .

The game is at home not away.

And i think we would beat west brom if we played 4-4-2 with that same lineup without too much of a problem.

People were saying we should beat Man City easily mate

4-4-2 doesnt work - we dont have the players to play it .

If we go in against West Brom playing 4-4-2 we will not win .

They will just swamp the midfield with 5 players and deny us space .

[stmichael]

I'll judge come October. Judging the manager after two games is ludicrous. In the next few weeks apart from the Mancs away we've got West Brom, Brum, Sunderland and Blackpool which are all winnable games.

We have good players but the squad depth isn't good enough. Just look at City's bench last night compared to ours. Unfortunately under circumstances off the pitch nowt will change whoever the manager is.

[SouthCoastShankly]

Im not sure how we can consider ourselves to be unlucky to be so low - we have got what we deserved so far and it needs to change .

good work ethic, belief and team work are all words used to describe a few players yet it has been mentioned many times that it isnt enough

We need to create more chances , we need to be better on the ball , we need to get hold of the ball - we are getting beaten in the middle of the park and we have no imagination or cutting edge up front .

Hopefully that will change as Torres gets sharper but we could easily be way behind and out of Europa league within the next 4 games .

We cant go to West Brom with the same set up and formation or we will not win .

The problem is we dont have the squad to change much .

The game is at home not away.

And i think we would beat west brom if we played 4-4-2 with that same lineup without too much of a problem.

People were saying we should beat Man City easily mate

4-4-2 doesnt work - we dont have the players to play it .

If we go in against West Brom playing 4-4-2 we will not win .

They will just swamp the midfield with 5 players and deny us space .

You are a grade A idiot.

Did you even watch the Arsenal game? or at least read my post properly?

I admit our failings in the Man City game but the performance against Arsenal was brilliant especially whilst playing with 10 men for the second half. That is why we are unlucky. We didn't deserve to drop points against Arsenal, especially due to the nature of the goal we conceded.

Hence minus one keeper cock up we would be sitting in the top half of the table.

Your comments offer nothing constructive, your opinion are lightweight and designed to infect this board with negativity. You, quite frankly, should be ashamed.

[Ben Patrick]

Benny, i also agree that 4-4-2 was the wrong formation against city.
We allowed them to dominate posession in the first half and that system isnt suited for us with the wide players we had in the team.
But i have no doubt that that very same team would beat West Brom at home, we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

[Benny The Noon]

Yes i watched the Arsenal game and yes we battled well but how many chances did we create ? How many did they create - the best person on the park throughout the first half was Nasri and only a couple of cracking pepe saves stopped them scoring first half - we had a got 15 mins at start of second half then spent the rest of the second half backs against the wall with them having the lions share of possesion - we were at home against a very weak arsenal team playing our strongest team with them missing their two best players and we got a draw - nothing brilliant about that .

You can keep call me negative as much as you want but i prefer to call it realistic that come to the fore last night when we were totally outclassed by one of our top4 rivals who didnt even have their strongest line up and didnt even play with an out and out striker .

I would of thought last night would be a wake up call but it seems some still cant see what is right in front of them - We are not good enough and we will struggle .

[Benny The Noon]

Benny, i also agree that 4-4-2 was the wrong formation against city.
We allowed them to dominate posession in the first half and that system isnt suited for us with the wide players we had in the team.
But i have no doubt that that very same team would beat West Brom at home, we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

We will agree to disagree then mate .

P.S - South Coast - take a leaf out of Bens book on the chapter of being able to debate maturely without the need to insult people .

[Ben Patrick]

Yes i watched the Arsenal game and yes we battled well but how many chances did we create ? How many did they create - the best person on the park throughout the first half was Nasri and only a couple of cracking pepe saves stopped them scoring first half - we had a got 15 mins at start of second half then spent the rest of the second half backs against the wall with them having the lions share of possesion - we were at home against a very weak arsenal team playing our strongest team with them missing their two best players and we got a draw - nothing brilliant about that .

You can keep call me negative as much as you want but i prefer to call it realistic that come to the fore last night when we were totally outclassed by one of our top4 rivals who didnt even have their strongest line up and didnt even play with an out and out striker .

I would of thought last night would be a wake up call but it seems some still cant see what is right in front of them - We are not good enough and we will struggle .

I dont think we were outclassed last night either.
We were poor at times but didnt deserve to lose 3-0 at all.

[Benny The Noon]

Guess we will once again agree to disagree mate.

[Benny The Noon]

Here is an interesting Article


Man City 3-0 Liverpool: Hodgson’s 4-4-2 completely outplayed
August 23, 2010

The starting line-ups
A dominant performance from City, who weren’t flattered by the 3-0 scoreline.

Roberto Mancini made changes on his wings, bringing in James Milner and Adam Johnson for Shaun Wright-Phillips and David Silva. Mario Balotelli wasn’t fit, and Emmanuel Adebayor was omitted. Joleon Lescott played at left-back in the absence of Aleksandar Kolarov.

Roy Hodgson shifted away from the 4-4-1-1 he used against Arsenal, and went 4-4-2, with Fernando Torres and David Ngog starting together for the first time in the Premier League. Javier Mascherano was unavailable with a transfer apparently imminent, so Lucas Leiva played in the centre of midfield.

The two-man strikeforce looked promising for Liverpool when Ngog and Torres combined nicely on the edge of the City penalty area after three minutes, but this was, amazingly, the final time one completed a pass to the either in the entire match. After that, they offered the same option – neither is particularly comfortable dropping deep or to the flanks, and both struggled to become involved in build-up play.


Traditional 4-4-2 v 4-2-3-1 battle
The classic problem for a 4-4-2 against a 4-2-3-1 (or 4-3-3) is that it is outnumbered in the centre of midfield, and that was particularly evident today. laugh.gif no ! City’s three central midfielders were the same three used against Tottenham on the opening day, but they were used differently – Yaya Toure played high up the pitch, generally level with the two wingers (as he has done for the Ivory Coast), whilst Gareth Barry played a box-to-box role, starting alongside Nigel de Jong but also getting into the penalty area. And he did that to good effect on 13 minutes, when he sidefooted James Milner’s cutback into the far corner.

Liverpool’s problems going forward stemmed from the numerical disadvantage in the midfield. As they were 2 v 3 in that area, their wide players were forced to play extremely narrow to help Lucas and Gerrard, with Milan Jovanovic in particular barely getting near the touchline all game. Both he and Kuyt were decent defensively, but the narrowness meant there was never any out-ball when Liverpool regained possesion – and add in the fact that Torres and Ngog weren’t giving enough variation upfront, Liverpool looked clueless in possession.

Their midfield problems were emphasised when Carlos Tevez dropped deep, as he did so often at White Hart Lane. Today, he played a slightly more traditional striking role, but still moved into deep-lying positions that effectively created 4 v 2 in midfield, and allowed City to build up play easily and gradually around Liverpool’s midfielders. His passes are depicted below (see original link above)

Wingers cut in to dangerous effect

City’s problem against Tottenham was that Wright-Phillips and Silva saw little of the ball, but today in Milner and Johnson they had two wingers playing excellently. As Mancini favoured towards the end of last season, they were inverted, with Johnson on the right, and Milner generally on the left. Johnson caused Daniel Agger no end of problems in Liverpool’s left-back zone – and Agger looked completely uncomfortable dealing with the winger, not simply because he is not naturally a full-back, but also because Johnson was always looking to cut inside onto his left foot, towards Agger’s weaker right foot.

Perhaps the biggest problem with Liverpool playing a 4-4-2 is that it forces Steven Gerrard to play a very deep role, especially if he is playing alongside Lucas (rather than Javier Mascherano, who is much more able to cope by himself in the centre of midfield, as he does for Argentina). Following Liverpool’s disastrous final season under Rafael Benitez, a myth seems to have emerged that Gerrard is somehow better in the centre of midfield than he is playing just off Fernando Torres. Nothing could be further from the truth – Gerrard played the best football of his career at the head of a midfield three, and is much more subdued in a four. In a 4-4-2, he is too far from goal, unable to influence attacking moves, less likely to combine with Torres (a partnership that works well) and too likely to play wasteful diagonal balls that are easily intercepted. He didn’t have a particularly bad game, but he wasn’t in a position to inspire Liverpool.

Surprisingly, Hodgson opted to change nothing at half-time – Liverpool had rallied in the five minutes before the break, maybe convincing their manager to have faith in the 4-4-2. If Hodgson remains committed to that system long-term, then we must have patience with him, and understand that a change in formation rarely has instant results. But in the sole context of this game, Liverpool needed something different.

City continue dominance in second half
City’s second goal came from a corner kick. This was particularly interesting, since Benitez’s insistence on zonal marking was blamed whenever Liverpool conceded a goal from a set-piece. So will pundits point to man-marking as the reason why they conceded such a poor second goal? Probably not, but this element of Liverpool’s tactics is worth keeping an eye on in the next few months.

Liverpool had their best spell of the match just after going 2-0 down, when Joe Hart made an excellent double save, but City sealed the game in the 67th minute. Johnson yet again caused Liverpool problems, dribbling past two players, stumbling under their challenges, before Martin Skrtel came across and wiped him out with a crazy lunge. Tevez converted the penalty, and that was game over.

Conclusion
City won comfortably without ever playing spectacular football, which simply demonstrates how poor Liverpool were. The use of Toure further forward worked reasonably well (although he doesn’t look completely fit) and Mancini’s use of inverted wingers and a false nine was very successful – Tevez had a good game, Milner got two assists, and Johnson v Agger was probably the game’s key battle. With Silva and Balotelli waiting in the wings (literally), personnel might change, but this looks like being City’s first-choice formation this season.

Liverpool’s performance was extremely disappointing, and displayed all the classic failings of a 4-4-2. This is notoriously Hodgson’s favourite formation, but he has shown a willingness to venture towards a 4-2-3-1ish system in Fulham’s Europa League run. That still seems to be Liverpool’s best bet, but with Gerrard in the hole, rather than deep in midfield.