Liverpool FC Forum

[PabloAimar]

Edited in a vain attempt to keep footy threads focused on football.

[Lando_Griffin]

I was thinking about our record last season, not overall but against Chelsea, Man Utd and Arsenal. We played them ELEVEN times last season and won only once.

2007/8

Man Utd P2 W0 D0 L2 F0 A4
Chelsea P5 W0 D3 L2 F4 A7
Arsenal P4 W1 D3 L0 F7 A5

vs Top Three : P11 W1 D6 L4 F11 A16 (Won 9.09%)
vs Other Teams : P48 W32 D11 L5 F108 A34 (Won 66.67%)

As many defeats as wins at home (P5 W1 D3 L1) and three draws and three defeats away. I guess you could take positives from the away draws in the league as firsts for Rafa, but our season by season head to head league record against them is still not good enough

2004/5 : P6 W1 D0 L5 F4 A9 PTS 3
2005/6 : P6 W1 D1 L4 F3 A9 PTS 4
2006/7 : P6 W2 D0 L4 F6 A8 PTS 6
2007/8 : P6 W0 D4 L2 F3 A8 PTS 4

Mini-Table (2004/5-2007/8)

1. Chelsea : P24 W12 D8 L4 F29 A16 PTS 44
2. Man Utd : P24 W13 D5 L6 F30 A19 PTS 44
3. Arsenal : P24 W6 D8 L10 F26 A33 PTS 26
4. Liverpool : P24 W4 D5 L15 F16 A33 PTS 17

Not even besting Arsenal, scored 10 less than any other of the 'big four' and conceded joint most. We concede seven points a season on the mancs and Chelsea under Rafa in those head to heads alone - only in 2005/6 did we score more points than the rest of the 'big four' against the rest of the Premiership so it isn't like we make up ground there.

Winning the head to head mini-table doesn't guarantee winning the league but six of the last eight Premiership titles have been won by the team doing so and four out of eight by the team with the most points against the rest of the Premiership sides - Chelsea managed both in record breaking 2004/5 as did Arsenal in their unbeaten season of 2003/4.

The two seasons in the last eight the team without the best head to head won the league :-

2000/1 : Liverpool picked up the most points head to head (10/18), but Man Utd picked up 11 more points against other sides and won the league by 10 points

2006/7 : Arsenal won the mini-table with 11 points, but Man Utd picked up a staggering 24 more points than Arsenal against the rest and won the league by six points from Chelsea. Arsenal finished fourth

Now let's look at the stats from '07-'08 regarding Man Utd's fixtures against Man City:

Man Utd: Won: 0 Drawn: 0 Lost: 2.

Of f*cking dear. They're obviously the worst side in the entire World...

Statistics can prove or disprove virtually anything.

[bigmick]

Hmmm. Not sure that's entirely a fair comparison though Lando. On this occasion the stats do tell a story, they are over four seasons and against three seperate teams, our main rivals. Clearly we will need at some stage to drastically improve our results and performances against those teams if we are to prosper, whereas in direct contrast Manchester united still managed to win the Premiership and the Champions League despite losing twice to City.

The best way of course to do well against the other "big four" teams is firstly not to handicap yourself prior to the match by playing your best player, or your 6 feet 6 inch centre forward on the left wing when neither can play there. Secondly you omit the option unless forced into it of giving Bolo Zenden a run in central midfield, or an untried mark Gonzales his second appearance or whatever it was. Thirdly, you try and go into the games with momentum, rhythm and belief.

I think we will do all the above this coming season, (or not in the case of playing Gerrared left wing) and we will in relative terms prosper. It'll be nopthing to do with rotation though, I'm equally certain of that.

[Owzat]

Now let's look at the stats from '07-'08 regarding Man Utd's fixtures against Man City:

Man Utd: Won: 0 Drawn: 0 Lost: 2.

Of f*cking dear. They're obviously the worst side in the entire World...

Statistics can prove or disprove virtually anything.

Yeah that's right, just compare TWO games to 11 and say it's like for like  Statistics used in a sensible way show trends, statistics used by idiots in an idiotic way you've just demonstrated.

[Owzat]

Hmmm. Not sure that's entirely a fair comparison though Lando. On this occasion the stats do tell a story, they are over four seasons and against three seperate teams, our main rivals. Clearly we will need at some stage to drastically improve our results and performances against those teams if we are to prosper, whereas in direct contrast Manchester united still managed to win the Premiership and the Champions League despite losing twice to City.

Besides which that is citeh's cup final, plenty of teams set out to beat the mancs knowing they're unlikely to be finishing top or even above them, while the 'big four' have a somewhat different agenda. Often not losing means as much as winning, they play the long game while the likes of citeh enjoy those cup finals since they know real cup finals are few and far between

[Judge]

Now let's look at the stats from '07-'08 regarding Man Utd's fixtures against Man City:

Man Utd: Won: 0 Drawn: 0 Lost: 2.

Of f*cking dear. They're obviously the worst side in the entire World...

Statistics can prove or disprove virtually anything.

Yeah that's right, just compare TWO games to 11 and say it's like for like  Statistics used in a sensible way show trends, statistics used by idiots in an idiotic way you've just demonstrated.

statistics shows trends (as you point out) which can change at any moment.

statiscally we are a better team than barnsley. the stats show we should have won by a country mile, but we didnt and lost.

statistics mean nothing, but they do show that the probability is higher with statistical trends highlighting that. Thats all.

if stats were concrete, then i'd be winning at the bookies every week, and living in a million pound house

[Fo Dne]

Times have changed, Rafa has probably taken Liverpool to the highest level since we last won the league, but still some way off winning the league. Whether he can take the team those few steps further I seriously doubt, with zonal marking and midprice purchases holding the team back. Rafa is slowly constructing a team, 12 players already in and out under him and still barely a dozen players worthy of wearing the shirt.

All those using the mancs as a benchmark should probably look as much at Wenger who has been a shining example of how money isn't necessarily the key to success. It is hard to break into the dominance of money, the two biggest spenders have won bought the last four Premiership titles between them, but it isn't impossible. Liverpool lost points against the likes of Brum and Reading last season (7/18) and drew too many games overall. Rafa has yet to beat the mancs in the league in EIGHT attempts, maybe keeping pace with them is hard but beating them in a one-off should be manageable by the tactical genius that won us the Champions League surely?

This is the crunch season, so far we've signed Dossena and Degen with a long, drawn out saga chasing Barny. Has Rafa done enough to convince me this is the season? No. We'll make the same mistakes again and the moves in the transfer market are no more inspirational than usual. The other nagging doubt is even with a flying start there is the anticipation it won't be sustained as both Rafa and Houllier have got off to good starts and quickly turned them into poor finishes.

Flying Starts

2002/3 : P12 W9 D3 L0 PTS 30. Final position = 5th (19 pts behind the Champions)
2007/8 : P14 W8 D6 L0 PTS 30. Final position = 4th (11 pts behind the Champions)

For all the talk of Rafa being the one, he's never finished higher than third, not beaten the mancs in the league, and has a pretty ordinary record against bottom three and top ten sides. I think I said last season that if we didn't show a positive sign like beating the mancs then Rafa would struggle to win the league, you can't keep giving them six points and expecting to finish above them

Rafa vs relegated sides : P24 W15 D6 L3 PTS 51 (Won 62.5%)
Rafa vs rest of top ten : P72 W30 D18 L24 PTS 108 (Won 41.67%)

The record against relegated sides should be 100% or at least a lot closer to 100%. Flicking down last season's Premiership sides and Rafa's results against them, the only sides he hasn't lost to are villa, spudz, Wigan, Sunderland and Derby ie 1/4 of the Premiership.

Point being we lose games that we shouldn't, were the excuse of money doesn't wash. We're not playing Chelsea and Man Utd every game, in fact Liverpool play those two only four times a season and the rest, who spend less, 34 times a season. So 102 points a season are up for grabs against teams that spent less, somehow they or maybe Rafa manage to level the playing field. Maybe someone should jot down the teams for each Liverpool game next season and compare the starting prices (as it were)

How the does Zonal marking hold the team back? If anything thats one of the things Rafa has 100% spot on. We aren't the biggest side and we aren't the most aggressive so we need our best headers of a ball in places they are more likely to challenge. Its used in an attacking context aswell as open play and when executed properly is the best marking method in football.

Its yet another poor excuse by someone who clearly doesn't understand the zonal marking system.

You NEVER heard commentators bang on about "the faults" with a man marking system when they conceed goals. It never happens ever.

I remember a particular header for United where Ferdinand scored against us a couple of seasons ago. Andy Gray ripped into Zonal marking, what he cmopletely failed to acknowledge was the ball was headed like a bullet into the goal into the top corner from 18 yards by one of the best headers of a ball in the league. But it was all down to Zonal marking why they scored the goal...

Zonal marking is clearly the best way to defend set peices, especially against big sides and sides that are good from set peices.

Zonal marking, when executed properly effectively becomes a man marking system anyway so don't sit there and give about zones not scored goals, thats like saying wingers pick players out when they cross when they don't they cross into zones and areas for strikers to attack balls.

No-one complained a season or two ago when the defence was good and strong enough to cope with it.

The idea is when a player enters a zone he is man marked and followed anyway. It is also to have your best headers of a ball all in a position to deal with danger and to be in the most likely area to win the header which will cause the most problems. The fact is you can over crowd certain zones and you can try and disrupt the shape of the system but thats no more easily done than trying to get Pennant to mark John Terry. Teams aren't that stupid to let these things happen.

The fact is, anyone who picks a whole in zonal marking doesn't understand how it works. Simple as that and am sick to death of hearing that pathetic excuse.

[stmichael]

We have always used zonal marking with Rafa, both with the ball in play and during set pieces. Liverpool, of course, were one of the first teams in the world to perfect the system of zonal cover with zonal marking, during our glory years, which was copied by Arrigo Sacchi's Milan, from whence Benitez learned it in turn. Most successful European teams use it to some degree, and many of the successful international sides.

[LegBarnes]

Times have changed, Rafa has probably taken Liverpool to the highest level since we last won the league, but still some way off winning the league. Whether he can take the team those few steps further I seriously doubt, with zonal marking and midprice purchases holding the team back. Rafa is slowly constructing a team, 12 players already in and out under him and still barely a dozen players worthy of wearing the shirt.

All those using the mancs as a benchmark should probably look as much at Wenger who has been a shining example of how money isn't necessarily the key to success. It is hard to break into the dominance of money, the two biggest spenders have won bought the last four Premiership titles between them, but it isn't impossible. Liverpool lost points against the likes of Brum and Reading last season (7/18) and drew too many games overall. Rafa has yet to beat the mancs in the league in EIGHT attempts, maybe keeping pace with them is hard but beating them in a one-off should be manageable by the tactical genius that won us the Champions League surely?

This is the crunch season, so far we've signed Dossena and Degen with a long, drawn out saga chasing Barny. Has Rafa done enough to convince me this is the season? No. We'll make the same mistakes again and the moves in the transfer market are no more inspirational than usual. The other nagging doubt is even with a flying start there is the anticipation it won't be sustained as both Rafa and Houllier have got off to good starts and quickly turned them into poor finishes.

Flying Starts

2002/3 : P12 W9 D3 L0 PTS 30. Final position = 5th (19 pts behind the Champions)
2007/8 : P14 W8 D6 L0 PTS 30. Final position = 4th (11 pts behind the Champions)

For all the talk of Rafa being the one, he's never finished higher than third, not beaten the mancs in the league, and has a pretty ordinary record against bottom three and top ten sides. I think I said last season that if we didn't show a positive sign like beating the mancs then Rafa would struggle to win the league, you can't keep giving them six points and expecting to finish above them

Rafa vs relegated sides : P24 W15 D6 L3 PTS 51 (Won 62.5%)
Rafa vs rest of top ten : P72 W30 D18 L24 PTS 108 (Won 41.67%)

The record against relegated sides should be 100% or at least a lot closer to 100%. Flicking down last season's Premiership sides and Rafa's results against them, the only sides he hasn't lost to are villa, spudz, Wigan, Sunderland and Derby ie 1/4 of the Premiership.

Point being we lose games that we shouldn't, were the excuse of money doesn't wash. We're not playing Chelsea and Man Utd every game, in fact Liverpool play those two only four times a season and the rest, who spend less, 34 times a season. So 102 points a season are up for grabs against teams that spent less, somehow they or maybe Rafa manage to level the playing field. Maybe someone should jot down the teams for each Liverpool game next season and compare the starting prices (as it were)

How the does Zonal marking hold the team back? If anything thats one of the things Rafa has 100% spot on. We aren't the biggest side and we aren't the most aggressive so we need our best headers of a ball in places they are more likely to challenge. Its used in an attacking context aswell as open play and when executed properly is the best marking method in football.

Its yet another poor excuse by someone who clearly doesn't understand the zonal marking system.

You NEVER heard commentators bang on about "the faults" with a man marking system when they conceed goals. It never happens ever.

I remember a particular header for United where Ferdinand scored against us a couple of seasons ago. Andy Gray ripped into Zonal marking, what he cmopletely failed to acknowledge was the ball was headed like a bullet into the goal into the top corner from 18 yards by one of the best headers of a ball in the league. But it was all down to Zonal marking why they scored the goal...

Zonal marking is clearly the best way to defend set peices, especially against big sides and sides that are good from set peices.

Zonal marking, when executed properly effectively becomes a man marking system anyway so don't sit there and give about zones not scored goals, thats like saying wingers pick players out when they cross when they don't they cross into zones and areas for strikers to attack balls.

No-one complained a season or two ago when the defence was good and strong enough to cope with it.

The idea is when a player enters a zone he is man marked and followed anyway. It is also to have your best headers of a ball all in a position to deal with danger and to be in the most likely area to win the header which will cause the most problems. The fact is you can over crowd certain zones and you can try and disrupt the shape of the system but thats no more easily done than trying to get Pennant to mark John Terry. Teams aren't that stupid to let these things happen.

The fact is, anyone who picks a whole in zonal marking doesn't understand how it works. Simple as that and am sick to death of hearing that pathetic excuse.

wow at last some one who knows what they talking about.



Agree but like me do you feel zonal system seems to work better with 4-2-3-1 then it does 4-4-2 in open play due to the nature of the 5 across midfield with 2 dropping back in center for me it dont work in 4-4-2 due to the nature of the wings opening up when on counter.

For me 4-4-2 man mark classic english setup.
4-2-3-1 zonal all the way due to way it breaks teams down.

[LegBarnes]

Times have changed, Rafa has probably taken Liverpool to the highest level since we last won the league, but still some way off winning the league. Whether he can take the team those few steps further I seriously doubt, with zonal marking and midprice purchases holding the team back. Rafa is slowly constructing a team, 12 players already in and out under him and still barely a dozen players worthy of wearing the shirt.

All those using the mancs as a benchmark should probably look as much at Wenger who has been a shining example of how money isn't necessarily the key to success. It is hard to break into the dominance of money, the two biggest spenders have won bought the last four Premiership titles between them, but it isn't impossible. Liverpool lost points against the likes of Brum and Reading last season (7/18) and drew too many games overall. Rafa has yet to beat the mancs in the league in EIGHT attempts, maybe keeping pace with them is hard but beating them in a one-off should be manageable by the tactical genius that won us the Champions League surely?

This is the crunch season, so far we've signed Dossena and Degen with a long, drawn out saga chasing Barny. Has Rafa done enough to convince me this is the season? No. We'll make the same mistakes again and the moves in the transfer market are no more inspirational than usual. The other nagging doubt is even with a flying start there is the anticipation it won't be sustained as both Rafa and Houllier have got off to good starts and quickly turned them into poor finishes.

Flying Starts

2002/3 : P12 W9 D3 L0 PTS 30. Final position = 5th (19 pts behind the Champions)
2007/8 : P14 W8 D6 L0 PTS 30. Final position = 4th (11 pts behind the Champions)

For all the talk of Rafa being the one, he's never finished higher than third, not beaten the mancs in the league, and has a pretty ordinary record against bottom three and top ten sides. I think I said last season that if we didn't show a positive sign like beating the mancs then Rafa would struggle to win the league, you can't keep giving them six points and expecting to finish above them

Rafa vs relegated sides : P24 W15 D6 L3 PTS 51 (Won 62.5%)
Rafa vs rest of top ten : P72 W30 D18 L24 PTS 108 (Won 41.67%)

The record against relegated sides should be 100% or at least a lot closer to 100%. Flicking down last season's Premiership sides and Rafa's results against them, the only sides he hasn't lost to are villa, spudz, Wigan, Sunderland and Derby ie 1/4 of the Premiership.

Point being we lose games that we shouldn't, were the excuse of money doesn't wash. We're not playing Chelsea and Man Utd every game, in fact Liverpool play those two only four times a season and the rest, who spend less, 34 times a season. So 102 points a season are up for grabs against teams that spent less, somehow they or maybe Rafa manage to level the playing field. Maybe someone should jot down the teams for each Liverpool game next season and compare the starting prices (as it were)

How the does Zonal marking hold the team back? If anything thats one of the things Rafa has 100% spot on. We aren't the biggest side and we aren't the most aggressive so we need our best headers of a ball in places they are more likely to challenge. Its used in an attacking context aswell as open play and when executed properly is the best marking method in football.

Its yet another poor excuse by someone who clearly doesn't understand the zonal marking system.

You NEVER heard commentators bang on about "the faults" with a man marking system when they conceed goals. It never happens ever.

I remember a particular header for United where Ferdinand scored against us a couple of seasons ago. Andy Gray ripped into Zonal marking, what he cmopletely failed to acknowledge was the ball was headed like a bullet into the goal into the top corner from 18 yards by one of the best headers of a ball in the league. But it was all down to Zonal marking why they scored the goal...

Zonal marking is clearly the best way to defend set peices, especially against big sides and sides that are good from set peices.

Zonal marking, when executed properly effectively becomes a man marking system anyway so don't sit there and give about zones not scored goals, thats like saying wingers pick players out when they cross when they don't they cross into zones and areas for strikers to attack balls.

No-one complained a season or two ago when the defence was good and strong enough to cope with it.

The idea is when a player enters a zone he is man marked and followed anyway. It is also to have your best headers of a ball all in a position to deal with danger and to be in the most likely area to win the header which will cause the most problems. The fact is you can over crowd certain zones and you can try and disrupt the shape of the system but thats no more easily done than trying to get Pennant to mark John Terry. Teams aren't that stupid to let these things happen.

The fact is, anyone who picks a whole in zonal marking doesn't understand how it works. Simple as that and am sick to death of hearing that pathetic excuse.

wow at last some one (including judge who a bit of a bell end) who knows what they talking about.

cheers 

[zarababe]

Bored with Benitez   Bored are ya


Me too when's this transfer lark gonna really take-off

P*ss off and get a life Spion - if you're bored with Benitez you must be fallin outta lurve with the game !

[NANNY RED]

Were skint


Liverpool's Benítez complains about transfer funds


LIVERPOOL, England (AP) -- Liverpool manager Rafa Benitez is having to sell before he can sign new players due to limited funds.

While the Spaniard would like to lure Tottenham striker Robbie Keane, he is operating within the financial constraints set by co-owners Tom Hicks and George Gillett Jr. and that means offloading players first.

The principal offseason target remains midfielder Gareth Barry, but Aston Villa has rebuffed the Reds because their valuation has fallen short.

"We are trying to find solutions if we do not have enough money," Benitez said Thursday. "We will still try to sign players that will make us better. But if you do not have too much money, and that is clear, we will have to have a little bit of imagination to progress in the market."

That has meant selling John Arne Riise to AS Roma, with Xabi Alonso possibly following him to Italy to join Juventus.

"We have to be careful what we do spend," Benitez said. "We have tried to use players to raise money for business in the past, sometimes selling players who have not settled down.

"This summer, it is very much the same idea. We know we will have to sell some players if we want some cash."

Spain striker David Villa is no longer a target, but Keane remains on the wish list as Liverpool bids for its first English title since 1990.

"We will have another main striker before the season starts, maybe two," Benitez said. "Villa is one of the players on our list, but at this moment I do not see it being an option for us.

"Keane is also one of the names we are interested in, and we are still working on other possible situations."

Benitez says Juventus' valuation of Alonso has failed to match Liverpool's.

"Juventus made an offer that was not good enough and now we are just waiting," Benitez said. "I do not know, really, whether that will go through."

Copyright 2008 Associated Press.

[Igor Zidane]

Thought i'd bang this in here.

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpo....1321351


Rafa Benitez on the attack

Jul 10 2008
Liverpool manager Rafa Benitez with his new signing Phillipp Degen

Liverpool manager Rafa Benitez with his new signing Phillipp Degen _320

Rafael Benitez has promised there will be at least one new big-name striker at Liverpool before the start of the season but admits he has no idea when the Gareth Barry saga will be concluded.

The Liverpool boss has admitted his exasperation at the drawn-out campaign to prise Barry from Aston Villa, which shows no sign of ending.

And the Spaniard has also revealed the growing financial problems he is having in the transfer market.

He admits that Tottenham skipper Robbie Keane is a target, but although he is also a big fan of Valencia and Spain striker David Villa, a move seems unlikely.

Benitez unveiled two new full-backs today, Swiss international Philipp Degen and £6million Italian defender Andrea Dossena, and expects to formally announce a £3million deal for Brazilian goalkeeper Diego Cavalieri in the near future.

But it has become increasingly obvious that Benitez is working with a much smaller budget than was expected at the end of last season when figures of £25-30million were being suggested as a potential kitty.

He admitted: "We know the situation regarding what we can spend, and we are trying to find solutions if we do not have enough money.

"And we will still try to sign players that will make us better. But if you do not have too much money, and that is clear, we will have to have a little bit of imagination to progress in the market.

"Everyone knows what our ideas are and what players we want. We are working hard with different names now, and at the moment that is not (David) Villa.

"We will have another main striker before the season starts, maybe two."

He added: "We had our ideas at the end of the season. We have tried to use players to raise money for business in the past, sometimes selling players who have not settled down.

"This summer it is very much the same idea. We know we will have to sell some players if we want some cash. So we have to do that.

"The fans must trust us, we are working hard during the summer with a lot of people in different countries working for us.

"We have a new keeper. And we are looking for a lot of players for the right price.

"Now if we want to spend we can do it. But we have to be careful what we do spend."

There have been rumours for weeks that Benitez is working with very little money, although sources insist that he can complete the deal for Barry without selling Xabi Alonso.

That deal - with Juventus - has also gone cold and Benitez revealed: "The situation with Alonso has not changed.

"Juventus made an offer that was not good enough and now we are just waiting. I do not know, really, whether that will go through.

"Xabi wants to stay because he is happy here but he also knows that Juventus is a top side. I have talked to him, he knows my ideas and he knows why. So we will try to find a solution for him, for us, and the best for the club."

Liverpool have been linked continually with Irish striker Keane.

Benitez said: "David Villa is one of the players on our list, but at this moment I do not see it being an option for us.

"Keane is also one of the names we are interested in, and we are still working on other possible situations.

"There has been some contact (over Keane) but we will have to see how things progress."

On Villa, he added: "We know he is a very good player, we know the price, and we know the players we have. At this moment he is not our target.

"We are still waiting on Gareth Barry. I prefer now not to say anything and to wait."

Sources at the club claim the price for the Villa midfielder could have risen above the £18million the midlanders’ manager Martin O’Neill was believed to want.

There is a growing frustration at Anfield with the continual shifting of the position, and the elimination from the deal of several Reds players who initially interested Villa, but who are now not on O’Neill’s wishlist.

And now the fact that Barry is banned from Villa’s training ground and has already missed a week of vital pre-season work is also worrying Liverpool and could, it is claimed, affect their willingness to meet Villa’s demands regarding the fee.

With Aston Villa away at a Swiss training camp, and Liverpool soon to be in the same country next week at their own base, the conclusion of the Barry saga looks some way off.

Liverpool have announced the signing of 17-year-old Dutch forward Vincent Lucas Weijl.

The teenager, who came through the academy at AZ Alkmaar, has signed a three-year deal and will go into the reserves squad.

[account deleted by request]

Even if you have doubts about Rafa you have to feel sorry for him at the moment. He is trying to do a virtually impossible task in the transfer market, get quality in without paying too much for it, while at the same time trying to sell players who no one seems willing to pay the asking price for.

Sounds to me as if Rafa prefers the money rather than Alonso.

[Sabre]

Yep, I agree S@int.

But at the same time it's encouraging that even given the troubles he's experiencing to have financial help from the yanks he doesn't fúck off and leave, Rafa wouldn't lack offers. Which somehow tells me that he must not see the goal of winning the league very far from the point and squad we have at the moment.

You know, I know that's a happy clappy feeling, but I do feel it.