Liverpool FC Forum

[Judge]

Where the fu'ck is Spion anyway?
He starts a one man verbal assault on our manager and accuses LFC of tapping up players then dissappears?












Ah found him, he was up his own ars'e all the time!

[Toffeehater]

Where the fu'ck is Spion anyway?
He starts a one man verbal assault on our manager and accuses LFC of tapping up players then dissappears?












Ah found him,head up ars'e!

pmsl mate.

In rafa we trust 

[Emerald Red]

Benitez has his faults, but I have to say I dont think that transfers are one of them.

IF they are not good enough he ships them out, and he is the last LFC manager since fu.ck knows when to make a profit on players he buys.

prevention is better than cure, the fact he has to ship so many players out shows a lack of judgment when signing them, if he was better in the transfer market we wouldnt have dead wood to ship out

What dead wood would this be? It took Benitez at least two years to ship enough of Houllier's dregs out the door before he could even consider building a decent first team. His own first team. Given the fact that he's never been handed a decent enough lump sum over a summer to get in quick enough and get his first targets, it only adds to the problem if you are forced to shop is Tescos when other's around you are in shopping at Harrods.

Bar last summer, which was really the first time proper money was there, and look who we got. Rafa, given with what he's had to spend at any given transfer window, has bought well with what he's had. Not only this, but it's been mentioned already that whoever he buys then deems not good enough, he ships them out quickly and usually makes a profit on them. The club is a business, and by any standards, this is good business sense.

Every manager in the league with forced budgets, including Fergie and Wenger at one point, has made these so called poor judgments and done the same thing. If every signing we made were the perfect one, which is impossible, then we'd be unstoppable. Of course, in the real world, this is not how things work. You call it poor judgment; I call it trail and error.

[Fo Dne]

Well I dont agree with everything you said Spion. But I'm not going to blast your opinion for it, I'll leave that to the 'thought police' as this topic is bound to get their emotions running.

All I can really see in your post is your frustration in the players hes after and the way he is going about it ?
From the title of this thread I presumed critisism in our style of play. I dont agree wit you that he is making us a laughing stock in the league, tw.it and tw@t are doing that very well all by themselves. Rafa is merely caught up in that IMO.

Spion were Manchester United considered a laughing stock when they offered Spurs 18 million for Carrick ? They were, by me. He wasnt worth that knid of money and neither was Veron. But Carrick and Veron if I'm right in thinking were both part of title winning teams, is Alex fergie, ManUnited now considered a laughing stock for their signings ? Probably not.

If Rafa signs the likes of Barry and Keane I'd for one be happy with that and wouldnt consider them as poor summer signings. Both players would help us go a long way into challenging for the title, just because their not the Robinhos, Ronalbinhos of this world people presume their medicore signings, there not. Their two good British players who know there way around English football better than all of the continents pre-madonnas.

I'm not saying all continentals are pre-madonnas obviously, like everyone else I'd like to see Rafa sign someone like Silva, someone with flair, creativity and quality for the wings.

But With the club in its current regime under the muppets, IMO Rafa ca only do so much in the transfer market. FFS it looks as if hes got to sell before he can really buy, Alonso for 16 M and Crouch now for 8-10. Its not like it is down t theBridge where Scolari has an open cheque book.

As for the "tapping" up of players well I honestly wouldnt know, but nobody is an angel when it comes to bringing a specifc target in, see Ashley Cole.

Rafa for me still resembles everything that is good about the club, hes humble and dignified and he is a proffesional, so in that repsect LFC and Rafa benitez are like hand in glove.

I'm not happy with a few of his signings and IMO he has got a few wrong in the past, Voronin, Pellegrino and  Kromkamp to name but a few. For me he is very much a hit n miss bloke in the transfer market, luckily for us though when he has gone BIG in money transfers, hes been a hit, Torres and Mascha credit to him there.

For me my part of the critisism comes when the football actually begins, and when he starts his mad method of rotating players in and out of form like there is no tomorrow. Or I find myslef asking the questions like ... Is he a motivater, can he get the best out of certain individuals, I wonder what his man managemnet are like as for me he seems a stand offish kind of guy, but I dont actually no. There just questions I ask mysef and others at times.
Like most the results and the performances are what matters most to me, if he'd of signed 'My little pony' (Vorornin) and the bloke would of scored 30 odd goals last season,3 of which were lashed in the onion bag with his pony tail, I'd of been over the moon. We should give players the time (all be it not much) and the right to prove their worth and to see whether Rafa got it right. Obviously in Voronins case he failed abysmaly    but what I'm trying to say is, its not always good to judge a perceived signing until he has played for the club, and Carrick is a pretty good exampleof this all be it he plays in the wrong red, but you get my drift ?

I agree in part, but i think the general point of critisism is poor.

Barry is certainly not by any means an adequate premiership footballer, he never has been. Since he was brought to Villa from Brighton when he was 18 he's been an exceptional player who has never received the praise he deserves. Not only that but the lad started as a defender playing left and centre half... (where he never once looked out of place) but has found his best positions as a left and central midfielder allowing him to gain consistency.

On to Carrick, £18,000,000 was a joke of a price for him. A good player? Yes, a very good player infact, but never an £18m player. The thing is he improved Man Utds team, he was a big step up from Giggs (in centre mid) and Fletcher and Smith.

The main issue with Benitez for me is we have far weaker positions than central midfield and I get the impression he's looking to bring Barry in to play there and not as a left sided midfielder. I'm worried if he does sign that it will take injuries to force him into trying Barry there, we'll then end up with an odd shaped midfield which would desperately be lacking a player like Alonso.

The Robbie Keane signing if it comes off could be an excellent bit of business. While he's not the best player in the league he's ALOT better than what we have but more importantly I believe he could play in the same team as Torres and I believe he could help get even more out of him while playing his own natural game. He has an ability to drop deep and play clever early passes aswell as an unselfishness about his game.

That is all...

[SundanceKid]

carragher was quoted over the weekend that he wants the league over anything, rather than cup runs

We've conquered Europe more than any other English club, and we still don't get credit for it. Plus Carra has played for a million years and hasn't gotten a Premiership medal, it's time he gets one.

[Penguins]

Now I know I'm going to be in trouble on here for airing my views on this "forum". Daring to criticise the wonderful Benitez. But this manager, the man who spouted on about “Historic Liverpool” & doing it the “Liverpool way” has in some part contributed to the dilution of our beloved club. Constant tapping up of players that we either cannot afford or don’t really need  is making us a laughing stock of the premier league. Am I really the only one bored with the wheeling & dealing of this manager? You know we can be unhappy with fourth, we can demand more from the manager who won the champions league. I’m fed up with the total belief we have to have in our managers & the fact that Liverpool don’t sack underperforming staff. I mean when Houllier left we gave him a bloody press conference so everyone knew how fantastic the scousers are. This summer is no different really to the one where Houllier bought the diamonds in the rough Diouf, Diao & Cherou. Oh remember those halcyon days? Torres & Mascherano have been wonderful wonderful players who make you believe anythings possible but this summer the players we are being linked with are at best adequate premier players who are happy to plod on in adequate teams, oh but saying that we seem to be happy to be one of those adequate teams so maybe the manager has it right. I don’t apologise for my opinions like so many who come on here demand. The fact is football is a game of opinions & this is supposed to be a “forum” not a bum kissing contest. Liverpool are still one of the biggest club teams on the planet but that is very quickly disappearing because the fans are happy with there lot. A club in constant flux can be seen in many ways, unstable like Leeds or progressive like Arsenal or Manure. Although we all loved Benitez talking about the past maybe we ignored the fact that if you keep looking back you really cant move forward.

I just can't believe the utter garbage you are spewing out...

Tapping up players, when and where?
As far I know MON only got angry cause the bid was made public before the season ended.
But a bid was made!
I don't even want to start with "constantly".

And there are many things that made the club a lauging stock in the PL last season but it sure wasn't Rafa!

What should he had done?
Not revealing what the con artists owning the club was up to?
The owners did everything they could to make it a hopeless campaign for Rafa.
No stadium, no money, mega loans and offering up his position to Klinsmann.

And the thing about not needing Barry. I disagree.
If Rafa thinks he has more to add to the club than it's current setup I see no reason I know so much better than him.
Barry is versatile, has 10 seasons of Pl football and has performed well.
And just cuause rafa doesn't blow £20m straight away at Barry
but instead tries to get him for less so he can afford more players doesn't make him stupid or pathetic.
In case you haven't noticed thanks to our generous owners money is a bit tight.
He has to weel and deal as much as possible and turn every penny to be able to get best team possible.

We won the league almost 20 years ago and our worst rivals can outspend us year after year. With fans like you we will sound like stupid Villa fans. They were also good in the early 80's and won and keeps on going on about getting to where they "belong".

When rafa won the Cl you write it as Rafa just did what he had to since we are Liverpool. You sound like a spoiled child
It was a miracle you moron!!!
We won something we had no business winning that year.

And from that you draw the conclusion he is a failure if he doesn't perform another miracle.
WHICH is almost what winning the PL next season would be.

And about sacking underperforming staff.
Which teams has won most titles the past 15 years?
Manure and . How many mangers have they had?
Could it maybe help if the manager was given proper backing instead?

Better to behave like Spurs or Newcastle instead. Calling every season a failure cause you live in dreamland and sack the manager every time. What a successful recipie that has been...

Next you comment on this summer vs Houiller wasting 30 million down the drain as the same.
So now it is Rafa's fault nothing is happening. Sigh.
have you lived in a closet the past year?
You think those names would be linked with us if Rafa had some real money to spend?
Just astounded by your remarks...
If Rafa had his way Eto, Alves, Silva etc would all be at LFC.
But next you would demand Rafa to conjure up some money too I guess...
Well, it is true Liverpool is a world club, much thanks to Rafa, but unfortunately money is the name of the game today and unless you have it things can go poorly rather quickly.

And allow me to laugh at you comparision with Leeds in the same sentence as and manure.
What the heck does flux mean in you eyes?
There are no similarites.
The difference spells money!
Leeds had none and Manure and Arsenal had.
Right now we are closer to Leeds which means we don't want that kind of "flux" at the club.

And I think it is you who still lives in the past and not rafa since you fail to see the realities of todays game.

You seems to be one of those supportes who think even after
these facts are known:

1. We have no money to spend and must sell to buy
2. We must go for a couple of bosmans to fill our squad
3. manure and Chelski spend another 50 million
4. Reports say our rivals with make 3 times as much money from their stadiums
5. Spurs, Villa, West ham, City all outspend us


that the manager fails to live up to you expectation if we end up in 4th place and therefore we must sack him so a new manager with the same scenario should come in and do the obvious, win the league.

3 words my friend.

Ignorant, obilivious, clueless.

[112-1077774096]

Benitez has his faults, but I have to say I dont think that transfers are one of them.

IF they are not good enough he ships them out, and he is the last LFC manager since fu.ck knows when to make a profit on players he buys.

prevention is better than cure, the fact he has to ship so many players out shows a lack of judgment when signing them, if he was better in the transfer market we wouldnt have dead wood to ship out

What dead wood would this be? It took Benitez at least two years to ship enough of Houllier's dregs out the door before he could even consider building a decent first team. His own first team. Given the fact that he's never been handed a decent enough lump sum over a summer to get in quick enough and get his first targets, it only adds to the problem if you are forced to shop is Tescos when other's around you are in shopping at Harrods.

Bar last summer, which was really the first time proper money was there, and look who we got. Rafa, given with what he's had to spend at any given transfer window, has bought well with what he's had. Not only this, but it's been mentioned already that whoever he buys then deems not good enough, he ships them out quickly and usually makes a profit on them. The club is a business, and by any standards, this is good business sense.

Every manager in the league with forced budgets, including Fergie and Wenger at one point, has made these so called poor judgments and done the same thing. If every signing we made were the perfect one, which is impossible, then we'd be unstoppable. Of course, in the real world, this is not how things work. You call it poor judgment; I call it trail and error.

gonzalez, bellamy, nunez, pellagrino, morientes, i could go on but you see my point

[MontyPanesarFC]

to be honest, things like this put to me sleep.

Unless I'm mistaken Rafa Benitez is the manager of Liverpool Football Club, we on the whole are fans of Liverpool Football Club, so stop knit picking at little points and get behind the side for sake. A ball hasn't been kicked and people want the manager sacked. Those of you who want the manager sacked then OK that's you're right but do me a favour don't come out singing or celebrating when we the league this year. Just sit there and cry yourselves to sleep because Benitez has delivered the league title.

[ConnO'var]

to be honest, things like this put to me sleep.

Unless I'm mistaken Rafa Benitez is the manager of Liverpool Football Club, we on the whole are fans of Liverpool Football Club, so stop knit picking at little points and get behind the side for sake. A ball hasn't been kicked and people want the manager sacked. Those of you who want the manager sacked then OK that's you're right but do me a favour don't come out singing or celebrating when we the league this year. Just sit there and cry yourselves to sleep because Benitez has delivered the league title.

Aah mate....

Don't get us wrong, if Rafa manages to bring it back to Anfield, we'll be there with everyone else, celebrating number 19. I don't think anyone here wants to get up on a soapbox and scream to the world "I told you so!".

You honestly think that it's more important for us to be right rather than what's best for the club? Nothing could be further from the truth my friend.

The club comes 1st in our hearts.... not Stevie, not Rafa, not Alonso etc etc. ...... you get my point, I'm sure.

People have differring opinions about what exactly it is that needs to be done/changed in order for us to win the league. Being right or wrong doesn't come into the equation at all. Telling someone not to celebrate if Rafa brings it back? A strange thing to suggest, if I'm being honest.

Kind of like saying that you don't believe that you'll ever be able to pull a certain Ms Jolie and when you eventually do get her, you then decide not to give her a right rogering cause you were wrong in the 1st place. Now you wouldn't want to go around doing that would ya? 

[MontyPanesarFC]

fair enough pal, maybe saying don't celebrate WHEN we win the league is stretching it a bit far, but I can bet, rather safely, that many people who'd prefer to see the back of Benitez are eagerly anticipating his leaving so they can jump up and down throwing their arms in the air with joy.

I personally don't feel Benitez has done enough during his first four years. On the european front can't really knock him, done a million times better than I expected but domestically he's been a million times worse than I expected if truth be told. With the reputation that followed him, to have reached only two domestic cup finals in 8 attempts and only to win one, isn't exactly a flourishing record. The league, well we all know and should expect a much better return to what we've had. BUT he's the manager of the club I love and for that reason he has my trust, faith, support whatever you want to call it. I want him to succeed because it'll mean Liverpool Football Club succeeding and that is more important to me than any personal feeling I have towards Benitez.

[bigmick]

Yes you really need to read back through months and months posts to realise that angles already been done. It isn't true that if you think Rafa has made an occasional mistake that it automatically follows that you don't want him to become a success/continue to be a success. It is possible to be 100% behind the team and yet think it's a little odd that Peter Crouch is selected to play on the left wing. Similarly, while we all hoped in our hearts that Kuyt was going to score for fun when we bought him, it's not disloyal to point that he didn't, when he didn't.

All that said I reiterate what I said earlier, I think by and large rafa has bought well. Every manager makes the odd error in the transfer market, it's inevitable when you're trading a dozen players a year at least including ins and outs, and overall the manager is definately in front. I broadly agree with Leon on this, although the manager like everyone else has his faults, his transfer record isn't something about which he can really be criticised on I don't think. If I was nit picking I would criticise more the policy (ie too many "options" and "possibilities" and not enough first teamers) than I would the actual players he's bought. There's simply been too many really good buys to criticise him i think. We are about to sell two of his buys for a substantial profit this closed season for example.

[MontyPanesarFC]

well I for one don't think he has a great record in the transfer market, certainly not by some clear gluf between good and bad.

Since his arrival in 04, only one of his signings in that year are still at the club and he looks set to leave (alonso) if you look at other clubs, they have at least four, five maybe six players still there since 04. I think his really good signings have been near world stars (reina, alonso, agger, skrtel, mascherano, torres) where as his good signings have a mixed judgement within fans, Garcia, Sissoko, Crouch, Pennant, Kuyt, Arbeloa, Aurelio and so on. Half the fans claim these to be good the other half claim these to be poor buys. Comparing this with his bad buys, well there's more than enough to make up two starting elvens. We're still yet to see any evidence in the first team that all the money investered in the youth has been worth it. We've done well in the youth and reserve leagues but nothing to show in the first team as of yet, so these signings may be genius but unless we see something then they're pretty pointless.

So again, I don't think that (in terms of numbers) there's a great gulf between good and bad signings. In terms of quality fair enough, the gulf between Torres and Voronin is so big Stevie Wonder can see it, but in terms of numbers then I don't think it's there.

[account deleted by request]

Like you Mick I think Rafa has on the whole bought well with his big money signings, my criticism of his buying is maybe he has just bought too many players. Too many players trying to settle with a new club every season is just as disruptive in my opinion as his more celebrated rotations. Too many decent players not enough quality players, too many cheap gambles that never looked like paying out. All this while never really addressing the main problem areas that everyone including Rafa had highlighted........ the wide areas.

The number of players that have played on the wings for us since Rafa took over is crazy and yet not one has really made either wing his own, with the possible exception of Kewell(whenever he was fit)From Nunez to Leto we have had a line of players who were either not good enough or played out of position there because we had no one else.

People say he hasn't had the money to buy top quality players....... I disagree, I think he has spent over £160million since he came. Thats 8 £20million pound players or 11 £15million pound players or 16 £10million pound players. I appreciate he didn't get it all at once and that the net spend is considerably less, but thats how much he has paid out on players up to now. Instead of which he has bought 50 players already, with more to come. Admittedly a lot of been bought for the future, but they all get signing on fees and a hell of a wage, all have to be integrated into the club, most tried out and given a few games to show what they can do.

IMO we need/needed to buy less players but much better quality, if that means struggling with Pennant/Kuyt for another 12 months until we can buy a top quality replacement then so be it. For me thats better than selling Pennant and bringing in another player thats really no better than what we are selling.

[MontyPanesarFC]

Anybody who knows me knows that I think the "money" arguement is . Plain and simple. Doesn't wash with me and never will uness somebody can answer these questions (sensibly) and convince me otherwise

1) WHEN we win the league this year can we assume that it's a fluke because we couldn't possibly win it outright by spending less could we?
2) WHEN we win the league this year what's the excuse for the previous four where we haven't came close?
3) If we haven't had money why has our record transfers on a keeper, defender, midfielder and forward all come under Benitez?
4) How come Spurs and Newcastle spend more but we finish above them and Arsenal spend less yet we finished behind them last year?
5) Why didn't we need to spend 10 million plus on Agger/Skrtel who I think are both top class centre halves?

Anybody who can answer them (sensibly) deserves a gold star.

[66-1112520797]

Well I dont agree with everything you said Spion. But I'm not going to blast your opinion for it, I'll leave that to the 'thought police' as this topic is bound to get their emotions running.

All I can really see in your post is your frustration in the players hes after and the way he is going about it ?
From the title of this thread I presumed critisism in our style of play. I dont agree wit you that he is making us a laughing stock in the league, tw.it and tw@t are doing that very well all by themselves. Rafa is merely caught up in that IMO.

Spion were Manchester United considered a laughing stock when they offered Spurs 18 million for Carrick ? They were, by me. He wasnt worth that knid of money and neither was Veron. But Carrick and Veron if I'm right in thinking were both part of title winning teams, is Alex fergie, ManUnited now considered a laughing stock for their signings ? Probably not.

If Rafa signs the likes of Barry and Keane I'd for one be happy with that and wouldnt consider them as poor summer signings. Both players would help us go a long way into challenging for the title, just because their not the Robinhos, Ronalbinhos of this world people presume their medicore signings, there not. Their two good British players who know there way around English football better than all of the continents pre-madonnas.

I'm not saying all continentals are pre-madonnas obviously, like everyone else I'd like to see Rafa sign someone like Silva, someone with flair, creativity and quality for the wings.

But With the club in its current regime under the muppets, IMO Rafa ca only do so much in the transfer market. FFS it looks as if hes got to sell before he can really buy, Alonso for 16 M and Crouch now for 8-10. Its not like it is down t theBridge where Scolari has an open cheque book.

As for the "tapping" up of players well I honestly wouldnt know, but nobody is an angel when it comes to bringing a specifc target in, see Ashley Cole.

Rafa for me still resembles everything that is good about the club, hes humble and dignified and he is a proffesional, so in that repsect LFC and Rafa benitez are like hand in glove.

I'm not happy with a few of his signings and IMO he has got a few wrong in the past, Voronin, Pellegrino and  Kromkamp to name but a few. For me he is very much a hit n miss bloke in the transfer market, luckily for us though when he has gone BIG in money transfers, hes been a hit, Torres and Mascha credit to him there.

For me my part of the critisism comes when the football actually begins, and when he starts his mad method of rotating players in and out of form like there is no tomorrow. Or I find myslef asking the questions like ... Is he a motivater, can he get the best out of certain individuals, I wonder what his man managemnet are like as for me he seems a stand offish kind of guy, but I dont actually no. There just questions I ask mysef and others at times.
Like most the results and the performances are what matters most to me, if he'd of signed 'My little pony' (Vorornin) and the bloke would of scored 30 odd goals last season,3 of which were lashed in the onion bag with his pony tail, I'd of been over the moon. We should give players the time (all be it not much) and the right to prove their worth and to see whether Rafa got it right. Obviously in Voronins case he failed abysmaly    but what I'm trying to say is, its not always good to judge a perceived signing until he has played for the club, and Carrick is a pretty good exampleof this all be it he plays in the wrong red, but you get my drift ?

I agree in part, but i think the general point of critisism is poor.

Barry is certainly not by any means an adequate premiership footballer, he never has been. Since he was brought to Villa from Brighton when he was 18 he's been an exceptional player who has never received the praise he deserves. Not only that but the lad started as a defender playing left and centre half... (where he never once looked out of place) but has found his best positions as a left and central midfielder allowing him to gain consistency.

On to Carrick, £18,000,000 was a joke of a price for him. A good player? Yes, a very good player infact, but never an £18m player. The thing is he improved Man Utds team, he was a big step up from Giggs (in centre mid) and Fletcher and Smith.

The main issue with Benitez for me is we have far weaker positions than central midfield and I get the impression he's looking to bring Barry in to play there and not as a left sided midfielder. I'm worried if he does sign that it will take injuries to force him into trying Barry there, we'll then end up with an odd shaped midfield which would desperately be lacking a player like Alonso.

The Robbie Keane signing if it comes off could be an excellent bit of business. While he's not the best player in the league he's ALOT better than what we have but more importantly I believe he could play in the same team as Torres and I believe he could help get even more out of him while playing his own natural game. He has an ability to drop deep and play clever early passes aswell as an unselfishness about his game.

That is all...

F.uck in hell Stu can you not read or something.

My critisisim of him is poor ?

I only critisised him in the last paragraph of that post, how was it poor ?

He has been found wanting when hes had to pit his wits up against the likes of Arsenal, United and Chelsea. His/our record against them in the last four years is dreadful. That is fact therefore how can it be 'poor critisism'?

He has chopped and changed players and positions, and we're usually out of the title race by Halloween FFS ! Whether that be sheer coincindence that we're out of the race so early on and its down to some kind of negative aura around him and the players (which of course is a load of b0ll0cks). Or the fact he likes to change personel around anything upto 75 times in the first 15 matches of the new campaign has anything to do with it seems far more likely to me. That is a fair critisism IMO, unless of course your one of these that believe our fixture list is too hard at a certain time, or that the sun got in Reinas eyes at 3.25pm one Saturday afternoon and the weather that day, oh aswell well as the ref didnt want us to win.

Then I just questioned, questioned not critisised his Man management abilities, and motivational skills, again from our teams perfromances, and watching them play the likes of Redaing away and Brum at home, its a fair enough question again IMO.

I havent ATALL critisised his speculative summer targets Barry and Keane. Infact I'd very much like it if he were to sign them both and have said this on numerous occasions.

For me your assumptions and reading skills a pretty poor, almost as bad as my speling  .

That is all ...