Liverpool FC Forum

[Owzat]

So we're still working on a tight budget and trying to turn water into wine. Still you add up the £18m for Barny and the £7m for Dossena and wouldn't people prefer to see a £25m bid for Villa, Santa Cruz or Berbatov instead?

[stmichael]

2. We are also far behind Arsenal and Chelsea.

I'll give you Chelsea but to say we are way behind Arsenal is a joke. They significantly overachieved last season and they've won nothing for three years. Their best players all want to leave aswell.

I'll go out on a limb now and predict that we'll finish above them this season, especially if Adebayor goes.

[andy_g]

2. We are also far behind Arsenal and Chelsea.

I'll give you Chelsea but to say we are way behind Arsenal is a joke. They significantly overachieved last season and they've won nothing for three years. Their best players all want to leave aswell.

I'll go out on a limb now and predict that we'll finish above them this season, especially if Adebayor goes.

arsenal's best players are van persie, clichy, fabregas, sagna, rosicky and possibly denilson. they are going nowhere, and with the right recruits arsenal be up there battling with us for 3rd and 4th like always.

[Simari]

If Bently gets sold, I think Pennant to Blackburn could be some decent business (anyone fancy santa cruz ? think he would be a brilliant 3rd striker to have after Torres and Keane.

Santa Cruz is a first choice striker mate. He would NEVER settle for being 3rd.

[bigmick]

"We want to use two or three systems during the season," says the Anfield manager.

"At the beginning of last season we were doing well with 4-4-2, so if the players can read the game and understand things, then it’s easier to change the system.

"Now we have more options at full-back, with Degen, Finnan and Arbeloa on one side and Dossena, Aurelio and Insua on the other. We have players with different qualities.

You can’t use too many systems – two or three maximum – and the key is to teach the players how to adapt to each system.

  Oh dear God no. 

[stmichael]

ok back to the Benitez and limited funds thing. I would thing if we really were in a a great depression of sorts at the club with zero money given by the owners (almost impossible I know) we could still make off well because of how many assets we have.

Unless Dossena turns out to be a total flop in pre-season, I think we can get away with selling Aurelio (which I know wont bring in a lot of cash, but we are desperate at the moment apparently). That would leave us with record defensive signing Dossena, shut down Messi playing out of position in his first game with the club Arbeloa, and U 20 world cup champion Insua as Left back options. I would hope that would be adequate.   

This also means that we could sell Finnan for a few scraps leaving liverpool through and through Carra, Arbeloa, and Degen as the three possible options with Arbeloa getting the majority of the games (unless Degen turns out to be more than expected, which I suddenly and for no good reason have some decent hopes for these days)

If we stick with a formation that is at the very least a close cousin to the one we played last season, I cannot see Pennant making an impact on the team. Especially with Crouch gone, the need for a winger to bomb in the crosses all day long is not that necessary. Plus Rafa really likes whatever it is that Kuyt brings to that right side. And for me it was down to one of pennant or yossi leaving, and although I do rate pennant, and he bring something to the team that not really anybody else does, yossi is more versatile and more adept to the way we played at the end of the season (his move that created Torres goal at the bridge). If Bently gets sold, I think Pennant to Blackburn could be some decent business (anyone fancy santa cruz ? think he would be a brilliant 3rd striker to have after Torres and Keane. 

And I don't think we need a 4th striker, so sell Voronin for a bag of crisps. if things get desperate we could have Babel and Kuyt as 4th and 5th.

Now the central midfield conundrum. It looks like Barry is coming and that we are going to get effed on the price tag, although I hope we don't. Which SURELY MUST MEAN that someone in the central midfield has to leave. It ain't gonna be Gerrard or Mascherano. The obvious answer points to Xabi, but Bigmick has recently brought up Lucas.  Considering that either one of them would most likely start most games on the bench watching masch, gerrard and barry, then it makes sense to sell the one you can get the most money for, which is Xabi. Although Xabi offers more than lucas, the difference between quality is minimized by the fact that either way they will have less time on the pitch to show it, so you might as well get the best value.  A part of me think we can get away with selling both. If in a pinch, we can play with two CM with any two out of Barry, masch and gerrard being able to form a good enough partnerhsip to work together in something like a 4-4-2. If masch got hurt, I would think Plessis would take his place over Xabi or Lucas anyway because he is more defensive minded. If Barry went down, other than switching to a masch gerrard in the middle, you could play Guthrie.  Don't laugh at that. Guthrie was in a bolton squad that drew 2-2 at the Allianz against Bayern Munich, and he was in the team that beat Manchester United. He played in 25 league games last year and that was after going the first two months without getting a chance. If we are going to sell Xabi anyway, and we have open competition for the CM spot after Gerrard, masch and Barry, I think Guthrie would beat out Lucas from a fit for the league viewpoint.  And if Lucas is going to be that far down the pecking order, might as well get 7 or 8 for him.

to recap:
To sell:
Riise         4
Crouch      9
Finnan      2
Aurelio      3? 4? 5?
Pennant     5? 6?
Voronin      3?
Xabi         13
Lucas        7
Carson      5
Itandje      2
Total:      50-55ish


Dossena:      7
Barry:         18
Cavalieri      3
Youngsters (all combined):   2

Just enough for about a 20M player like a Robbie Keane, but if there was even 10M in the bank we could get David Villa instead if that what we wanted.

When Rafa started at the club the formation was often 4-5-1 which is basically the same as 4-2-3-1 or even what Mourinho claimed to be playing at Chelsea; 4-3-3 (thats probably what Fat Sham would have you believe that Bolton played). Back then the formation was used as a stick to hit him with. When Morientes was brought in, we played 4-4-2, but almost always with him dropping a bit deeper making it a 4-4-1-1 which is very similar to 4-5-1 or any of the others.

The big differences in style of play depends on the personel, on how high the line of defense is when defending and whether the short or long ball is preferred. We, as well as every top side, will probably play different formations during next season.

I guess what many fans really want to see is a settled side like the one we played towards the end of last season - for a majority of the games.

[Simari]

The big differences in style of play depends on the personel, on how high the line of defense is when defending and whether the short or long ball is preferred. We, as well as every top side, will probably play different formations during next season.

I guess what many fans really want to see is a settled side like the one we played towards the end of last season - for a majority of the games.

In my opinion, one of the more significant differences between us and the likes of Man U / Arsenal (the beautiful game), is the lack of versatile attacking players. Only Gerrard and Kuyt fit that bill as they are able to play in multiple positions effectively in the final third.

As a result, when we change formation, the results are not convincing.

[bigmick]

I guess what many fans really want to see is a settled side like the one we played towards the end of last season - for a majority of the games.

All the other stuff doesn't matter really. You can sign who you like, play them where you like and do whatever you like, but unless you build a football TEAM you won't achieve the success such as the potential of the players would indicate is possible, not in the English Premiership anyway.


I think Rafa has seen the light, as much as anything else because the light is so bright it is likely to blind anybody who looks directly at it. Not only was the succes and consistency of our own team so indisputeably and obviously linked to the selection of a settled formation and personel towards the end of last season, but other teams also demonstrated that it was more than possible to play with a settled team and be successful.


If these quotes are an indication of the managers thoughts (and please God I hope they aren't), then I don't hold out any hope for us whatsoever this season coming. If the campaign pans out as I would expect under those circumstances (ie we are well and truly out of the title race by Christmas again) then I would 100% be advocating a change of manager.

[account deleted by request]

Reading what Rafa has said leads to a number of points of interest

1/ One possibly two new strikers......Hopefully the end of Voronin, plus the possibility that one of them will be an out and out striker with the other being a creative second striker. A return to 4-4-2 as an alternative to the 4-5-1

2/Wide players but not traditional wingers........ I think we will stick with Kuyt and Babel with possibly Barry or Silva, or if they don't arrive Benayoun and possibly a more traditional wide player such as Bently.

3/Rafa has not seen ANY so called light! He will continue to pick his formation depending on the opposition and players available while rotating to his hearts content.

4/Money is very tight but I still think he will bring in at least one top quality player in addition to Barry, hopefully two.

5/ Degen may get much more playing time than some thought, as it seems attacking fullbacks are going to play a major part in our team this season.

Does the fact that Dossena has been given Arbeloa's no2 shirt have any significance do you think?

[stmichael]

Reading what Rafa has said leads to a number of points of interest

1/ One possibly two new strikers......Hopefully the end of Voronin, plus the possibility that one of them will be an out and out striker with the other being a creative second striker. A return to 4-4-2 as an alternative to the 4-5-1

2/Wide players but not traditional wingers........ I think we will stick with Kuyt and Babel with possibly Barry or Silva, or if they don't arrive Benayoun and possibly a more traditional wide player such as Bently.

3/Rafa has not seen ANY so called light! He will continue to pick his formation depending on the opposition and players available while rotating to his hearts content.

4/Money is very tight but I still think he will bring in at least one top quality player in addition to Barry, hopefully two.

5/ Degen may get much more playing time than some thought, as it seems attacking fullbacks are going to play a major part in our team this season.

Does the fact that Dossena has been given Arbeloa's no2 shirt have any significance do you think?

I have to say that I'm surprised we haven't yet bought or been linked with a top wide man bar Silva who isn't really an out and out wide man anyway. So whilst we need one more wide man we go for two attacking fullbacks that compliment the squad and to the mangers style of play. I think Rafa will more or less stick with his end of season 4-2-3-1, what that formation needs is fullbacks who get forward and provide the width. The signing of two full backs known for their attacking, rather than defending, suggests to me that this is Rafas plan.

I also think Rafa's admissions at Xmas about his inability to control premiership games as he does Cl games, suggests to me he will stick with a plan and let the players get used to it. So less tinkering, more width from the fullbacks and a continuation of the Torres-Gerrard axis of upfront.

[Fo Dne]

2. We are also far behind Arsenal and Chelsea.

I'll give you Chelsea but to say we are way behind Arsenal is a joke. They significantly overachieved last season and they've won nothing for three years. Their best players all want to leave aswell.

I'll go out on a limb now and predict that we'll finish above them this season, especially if Adebayor goes.

arsenal's best players are van persie, clichy, fabregas, sagna, rosicky and possibly denilson. they are going nowhere, and with the right recruits arsenal be up there battling with us for 3rd and 4th like always.

Denilson?

You havin a laugh?

Try Toure, Gallas, Fabregas, Hleb, van Persie, Rosicky.

[Fo Dne]

"We want to use two or three systems during the season," says the Anfield manager.

"At the beginning of last season we were doing well with 4-4-2, so if the players can read the game and understand things, then it’s easier to change the system.

"Now we have more options at full-back, with Degen, Finnan and Arbeloa on one side and Dossena, Aurelio and Insua on the other. We have players with different qualities.

You can’t use too many systems – two or three maximum – and the key is to teach the players how to adapt to each system.

  Oh dear God no. 

Nothin wrong with having a plan "B".

[Fo Dne]

ok back to the Benitez and limited funds thing. I would thing if we really were in a a great depression of sorts at the club with zero money given by the owners (almost impossible I know) we could still make off well because of how many assets we have.

Unless Dossena turns out to be a total flop in pre-season, I think we can get away with selling Aurelio (which I know wont bring in a lot of cash, but we are desperate at the moment apparently). That would leave us with record defensive signing Dossena, shut down Messi playing out of position in his first game with the club Arbeloa, and U 20 world cup champion Insua as Left back options. I would hope that would be adequate.   

This also means that we could sell Finnan for a few scraps leaving liverpool through and through Carra, Arbeloa, and Degen as the three possible options with Arbeloa getting the majority of the games (unless Degen turns out to be more than expected, which I suddenly and for no good reason have some decent hopes for these days)

If we stick with a formation that is at the very least a close cousin to the one we played last season, I cannot see Pennant making an impact on the team. Especially with Crouch gone, the need for a winger to bomb in the crosses all day long is not that necessary. Plus Rafa really likes whatever it is that Kuyt brings to that right side. And for me it was down to one of pennant or yossi leaving, and although I do rate pennant, and he bring something to the team that not really anybody else does, yossi is more versatile and more adept to the way we played at the end of the season (his move that created Torres goal at the bridge). If Bently gets sold, I think Pennant to Blackburn could be some decent business (anyone fancy santa cruz ? think he would be a brilliant 3rd striker to have after Torres and Keane. 

And I don't think we need a 4th striker, so sell Voronin for a bag of crisps. if things get desperate we could have Babel and Kuyt as 4th and 5th.

Now the central midfield conundrum. It looks like Barry is coming and that we are going to get effed on the price tag, although I hope we don't. Which SURELY MUST MEAN that someone in the central midfield has to leave. It ain't gonna be Gerrard or Mascherano. The obvious answer points to Xabi, but Bigmick has recently brought up Lucas.  Considering that either one of them would most likely start most games on the bench watching masch, gerrard and barry, then it makes sense to sell the one you can get the most money for, which is Xabi. Although Xabi offers more than lucas, the difference between quality is minimized by the fact that either way they will have less time on the pitch to show it, so you might as well get the best value.  A part of me think we can get away with selling both. If in a pinch, we can play with two CM with any two out of Barry, masch and gerrard being able to form a good enough partnerhsip to work together in something like a 4-4-2. If masch got hurt, I would think Plessis would take his place over Xabi or Lucas anyway because he is more defensive minded. If Barry went down, other than switching to a masch gerrard in the middle, you could play Guthrie.  Don't laugh at that. Guthrie was in a bolton squad that drew 2-2 at the Allianz against Bayern Munich, and he was in the team that beat Manchester United. He played in 25 league games last year and that was after going the first two months without getting a chance. If we are going to sell Xabi anyway, and we have open competition for the CM spot after Gerrard, masch and Barry, I think Guthrie would beat out Lucas from a fit for the league viewpoint.  And if Lucas is going to be that far down the pecking order, might as well get 7 or 8 for him.

to recap:
To sell:
Riise         4
Crouch      9
Finnan      2
Aurelio      3? 4? 5?
Pennant     5? 6?
Voronin      3?
Xabi         13
Lucas        7
Carson      5
Itandje      2
Total:      50-55ish


Dossena:      7
Barry:         18
Cavalieri      3
Youngsters (all combined):   2

Just enough for about a 20M player like a Robbie Keane, but if there was even 10M in the bank we could get David Villa instead if that what we wanted.

When Rafa started at the club the formation was often 4-5-1 which is basically the same as 4-2-3-1 or even what Mourinho claimed to be playing at Chelsea; 4-3-3 (thats probably what Fat Sham would have you believe that Bolton played). Back then the formation was used as a stick to hit him with. When Morientes was brought in, we played 4-4-2, but almost always with him dropping a bit deeper making it a 4-4-1-1 which is very similar to 4-5-1 or any of the others.

The big differences in style of play depends on the personel, on how high the line of defense is when defending and whether the short or long ball is preferred. We, as well as every top side, will probably play different formations during next season.

I guess what many fans really want to see is a settled side like the one we played towards the end of last season - for a majority of the games.

Bolton and Chelsea played a 4-3-3.

There is a difference in that and the "4-2-3-1" or 4-5-1.

Chelsea and Bolton effectively used the wide players as wide strikers and had a midfield three rather than an attacking midfielder playing off a front man.

Major difference in the two systems.

[Owzat]

4/Money is very tight but I still think he will bring in at least one top quality player in addition to Barry, hopefully two.

If money is that tight then £18m could be better spent than on CM which isn't a high priority. We could end up spending a lot of money on not a lot of benefit to the team.

The other question/issue I was going to raise was about some of the selling, are we going to sell players like Pennant, Benayoun etc to raise funds? I'd rather use the Crouch and Riise money towards necessary players and not sell Alonso or buy Barny. I'd happily settle for a winger and striker to go with the signings already, if we can offload Carson and Pennant to raise more funds then we should. A number of players were becoming very fringe, the first choice XI becoming a lot more settled and some of those fringe players could be considered surplus to requirements. So why sell a player who featured quite a lot? (when fit) And to replace him with someone who may cost more and isn't considered that much better, if at all, by some. We've just spent money on a goalkeeper to benchwarm behind Reina, if money's that tight you don't spend it where it doesn't need spending.

[LFC2007]

I'm beginning to think that the potential sale of Alonso has no bearing on the Barry deal. With Rafa's latest comments re. formations and emphasising that signing the two attacking full backs will solve a problem in our wide areas, I think Barry may well slot in at left midfield, with Dossena providing the width. It could be that we actually sign no left winger, with Barry playing mainly on the left, and Benayoun and Babel being our main cover. Perhaps we're after a RW instead? That would leave questions as to the futures of Kuyt/Pennant/Benayoun.

I still think that would leave too big a squad - we don't need three players on each side of the midfield/wing, and Voronin should be sold anyway - even if it's only for £50k - it'd cover the food bill for the year.

It's all so unpredictable, and that's when you know Rafa's your manager.