Liverpool FC Forum

[66-1112520797]

Men like Finnan, Riise, Pennant, Crouch and even Kuyt do not get the credit they deserve. In the case of Kuyt, if you browse the first games here, the threads talked about "that's what we needed", "he's class" and the like. At the end of the season, he seems not good enough for many. And I think he's a very good striker, an orange international

Men like Finnan, Riise , Crouch and even Pennant do get praised by most Liverpool supporters including me. My personal opinion on Kuyt isnt the voice of the mass Liverpool fans, for me he isnt hasnt shown he is a "good" striker. Rafa's fault for some of that playing him deeper, but it still doesnt mean he's a good striker, and just because he plays for Holland means feck all. Most of the time he is a bit part player for them, and IMO isnt a classical Dutch player his technique and touch is poor, and IMO his movenment isnt much better, Van Nistlerooy is a better striker IMO and Hunterlaar looks better too, but again thats my opinion.

[Sabre]

All that said and done though Xabi isnt going which is good news, it may not sound like it after what I've just said but that doesnt hide the fact Xabi is still very good. But like Saint said I'd personally prefer Alonso in part of a swap deal with Eto, than the lookalike Sally Gunnell who has been mooted, he isnt what we should be looking at IMO.

I don't doubt that you think Alonso is a good player. But I sense that some of the reasons so that you consider him going are Gerrard related.

Don't get me wrong eh? Your theory about not being compatible, and making Alonso the "engine" or fulcrum of the team is a valid one. But it's a theory. I have another one, which says that Gerrard has played out of position because he's very complete, the best player of the squad, and our squad had some serious holes in some places.

Both theories are valid, IMHO, and both theories will be tested next season... provided we'll bring depth to the squad. Neither your theory or my theory can be proved wrong or right unless Rafa says his view about it, which, I don't think he has. Has Gerrard played in the right because incompatibility? or because the sum of Alonso , Mascherano, and Gerrard in the right, is stronger than Gerrard, Alonso in the middle, and Luis Garcia or Cisse in the right?

I think it's the latter because Gerrard played more in the right yesteryear than this one. And yesteryear precisely we hadn't Pennant and that happened more often. If we bring a right midfielder, Gerrard won't play in the right again the rest of his life, and I'd bet my mortgage on it. But next season we'll prove who is right. I might be perfectly wrong, as I've been before, with Gonzalez and Morientes impact prediction.


As for the blessing in disguise, I misunderstood the phrase I think, as we use it exactly with that words, but with another negative meaning. Thanks for the note.

[puroresu]

We need more creativity in the side.  More flair and guile.  There are only a small amoutn of players that posess that something extra which we are lacking.  Those are the WC players and without that something extra we will not close the gap on the top two. 

Someone who has the ability to beat 2 or 3 players right at the heart of the defence would be nice. 

World class players do a make a difference.  This cant be denied. It was Ronaldo who had that something extra for Utd.  I was Drogba who kept Chelsea in the hunt for the title.  It was Kaka who managed to take Milan to the CL.  We dont need wholesale changes however we do need more genuine quality.  For me we need a LW, a striker, a RW (If Gerrard will no longer be played there) as Pennant isnt good enough.  2 fullbacks for me as well as we need more dynamism from our full backs.  Finnan is solid and very good but going forward his not great.  Risse will score goals but defensivly his not great.  These days Full backs need to be more like wingers who contribute going forward just like a winger and we dont have these qualities in our Full back positions.

[Simari]

For us, I feel that a left winger is top priority. Followed by a striker.

Completely agree, as long as Pennant continues to improve on the right and we must have faith that he will do so   

On the striker, my preference would be get a creative forward and allow Kuyt to move back into the box. He has shown on a few occasions that he is more than capable of scoring scrappy goals. The issue we've had is that he's hardly ever been in the box having to cover for non-existant link-up play through attacking midfield.

[Sabre]

I was Drogba who kept Chelsea in the hunt for the title

DROGBA CLOSE TO LIVERPOOL, HE'S SPOTTED TALKING WITH LFC FANS IN LFC BOARDS

Jokes aside, quality is important. It was Gerrard who gave us the last minute goal against West Ham. It was Gerrard who scored the first in Istambul. It was Reina who has given us two penalty shoot aways. Quality is very important, and we have quality aswell. But now we need more, but without forgetting that we have a good squad already.

[66-1112520797]

I don't doubt that you think Alonso is a good player. But I sense that some of the reasons so that you consider him going are Gerrard related

Possibly yes. When Gerrard plays well Liverpool play well, unfortunately nobody can really deny it, and in actual fact its a sad state of affairs that it takes one player to make Liverpool tick, that highlights for me, the fact we need better players than we've got to help our captain out especially going forward. For me Gerrard \s best position is in the middle (an age old debate) but one that will carry on unless we can bring someone like him into the team and improve it.

Xabi is a quality player and you'll see me praise him next season for sure, if the displays are good of course, but I'd like to see how Rafa will build a team, IMO Mascha and Alonso in the middle is a no no, way to negative and we'll probably have similar problems as we've had this year.

Both theories are valid

Yes they are.

[europian-kings]

i think if we are looking to buy a striker that is of a good standard (not WORLD CLASS) but is a name everyone has heard of and can score goals then why don't we buy owen instead of forlan.
owen = 9mill
forlan = 17mill
at only half the price of forlan i for one think if the rumors are true and we havent been given a large amount of money, then michael owen would be a much better signing then forlan.
why? well, forlan already stated a while back his love for man utd, he did nothing in his time in the premiership. where as owen has released his deasire to rejoin liverpool and be given a 2nd chance, he has proven how leathel he is when he is 100% fit, and he has proven he can score in the premiership.
owen for 9mill, or forlan for 17mill? i know who i'd prefer

[Redman in wales]

without rose tinted specs, that first 11 is still behind chelsea's and utds first 11.

No, IMHO the squad has less depth, but I think than in a UEFA CL semifinal you put your best over two legs to try to reach the final, and Liverpool went through.

Manchester away game was a disgrace, we played very badly, and they played better. Manchester in Anfield? Liverpool was better than them and I disagree saying that is having rose tinted spectacles.

but our squad has MORE depth sabre. we have more 1st team players on our books than utd or chelsea. When utd played milan in the champs league, they had Kieran Lee, Chris Eagles and Fangzhou Dong on the bench. youth players had to feature because they have a small squad with a few injuries.

what we are lack is first team quality.

'rose-tinted specs' was merely a term used to say that anyone thinking that our first team could challenge utd or chelsea without any additions was kidding themselves. - i din't mean any offense by it

like saint pointed out, in the 4 games you mentioned, we scored one goal. hence the need for more top quality players

[Sabre]

Nice. I think that's the idea, putting different views in a forum, once agreed the other idea is not ridiculous but just another opinion it's easier to have a footie discussion (and I take my share of blame for having jumped at some opinions)

Xabi is a quality player and you'll see me praise him next season for sure, if the displays are good of course, but I'd like to see how Rafa will build a team, IMO Mascha and Alonso in the middle is a no no, way to negative and we'll probably have similar problems as we've had this year.

The Double Holding Midfielder is a Spanish fashion nowadays.

In Real Madrid there was a storm last summer because Capello wanted to play with a double holding midfielder. "Real Madrid must attack" they said. "We have won it nine times, we shouldn't defend" they said.

But Capello, day by day, week by week, is showing that sometimes, an apparently negative formula might be better to bring some silverware after 4 years.

The most possible formation though next year, won't be Mascherano-Alonso in my view. Once again, Gerrard was played as a second striker (or attacking mid) against Arsenal for instance, because he was the only man who could do the job at the moment.

Next year, Luis Garcia and Leiva will do THAT task. And Gerrard, will play more behind than that. Then Rafa will have to decide who he will put in the bench, Alonso, or Mascherano, because for me Gerrard is the better midfielder we have (and player. But he's not as good as a holding mid). So once we have the other position settled, Gerrard will play CM, his natural position. And Mascha and Alonso will compete for the holding mid role.

[Ydde]

We need more creativity in the side.  More flair and guile.  There are only a small amoutn of players that posess that something extra which we are lacking.  Those are the WC players and without that something extra we will not close the gap on the top two. 

Someone who has the ability to beat 2 or 3 players right at the heart of the defence would be nice. 

World class players do a make a difference.  This cant be denied. It was Ronaldo who had that something extra for Utd.  I was Drogba who kept Chelsea in the hunt for the title.  It was Kaka who managed to take Milan to the CL.  We dont need wholesale changes however we do need more genuine quality.  For me we need a LW, a striker, a RW (If Gerrard will no longer be played there) as Pennant isnt good enough.  2 fullbacks for me as well as we need more dynamism from our full backs.  Finnan is solid and very good but going forward his not great.  Risse will score goals but defensivly his not great.  These days Full backs need to be more like wingers who contribute going forward just like a winger and we dont have these qualities in our Full back positions.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are talking about adding a LW, a RW, A Striker, and 2 Fullbacks.

That's 5 players! That to me, is wholesale changes to a team. And you yourself said that there are only a small amount of players that have that something extra, so I think that asking for 5 world class players is a bit too much, no?

[Simari]

The most possible formation though next year, won't be Mascherano-Alonso in my view. Once again, Gerrard was played as a second striker (or attacking mid) against Arsenal for instance, because he was the only man who could do the job at the moment.

Next year, Luis Garcia and Leiva will do THAT task. And Gerrard, will play more behind than that. Then Rafa will have to decide who he will put in the bench, Alonso, or Mascherano, because for me Gerrard is the better midfielder we have (and player. But he's not as good as a holding mid).

I would disagree with the bit about Luis Garcia and Leiva being to do that job CONSISTENTLY over an entire EPL season.

Luis Garcia - well, he is an enigma. He has the skill to make  that position his own. But, his decision making in league games is sadly lacking. Rafa has a challenge on his hands with Garcia. He shines in the fewer games in Europe but doesn't fully understand the concept of maintaining possession in the League. The last thing we want is to give up possession after the hard work done by the defense/midfield to get the ball into the final third. It would be no different from where we are today.

Leiva is 20 and unproven in the EPL. I would question our aspiration to challenge for the title this year, if he was the only option we had along with Garcia. thrown into that role.

In my opinion, we need a consistent creative forward who will not lose possession. Leiva can develop into such a player, but not with Garcia as a role model.

In the words of wise Yoda - "Always two there are, a master and an apprentice."     

[Sabre]

In my opinion, we need a consistent creative forward who will not lose possession

Do you know who led the stats of lost balls last season in La Liga? Ronaldinho Gaucho.

There are some positions in which giving away balls is easier. Attacking mids and strikers always lead this stats. It's the tax you have to pay for LG. 13 goals, quite a lot of assists, and he gives away balls. It's just natural. A lost ball is not much of a problem in certain areas of the pitch, while, losing it in the Alonso position with 6 men on front of him is a disaster.

I think the giving away balls point is stressed too much if we take in consideration what's the role of lil Luis. Leiva? I don't know, they say he's good.

[account deleted by request]

That's where I disagree S@int, I'd never consider ALonso a fifth midfield man. Id think of selling Luis Garcia (a Spaniard) or Sissoko first. And we'd have a decent money for them.

As for the Simari post, Alonso isn't, as you say, the only victim of this, in the other hand, quite classic attitude of football fans around the world.

Men like Finnan, Riise, Pennant, Crouch and even Kuyt do not get the credit they deserve. In the case of Kuyt, if you browse the first games here, the threads talked about "that's what we needed", "he's class" and the like. At the end of the season, he seems not good enough for many. And I think he's a very good striker, an orange international.

Eto'o is better? yes he is. Villa is better? yes he is but not that much better. But let's not forget he's a good striker after the first season.

Kovacevic scored unimpressive 7 goals in Spain, before banging 28 next season. Should the team he had him had sold him after the first season, they would have made a mistake. Some patience is always required.

I wasn't saying Alonso was the 5th best midfielder, but the fact that we now have 5 midfielders. If Barca would consider a similar deal for Sissoko with Eto'o I would be even more willing to snatch their hands off. Unfortunately the deal now appears to be dead anyway and we may have to look downmarket, but hopefully not as far down as Forlan.

I also think you may be over-valuing Garcia as I wouldn't expect more than £10million for him at best. Certainly coming back from a long term injury wont have helped his price either.

[Simari]

I have no doubts that, if Luis Garcia played as many minutes and games as Ronaldinho - he would lead that stat BY FAR. The point I made above was that while has has the skill, he is NOT CONSISTENT.

Barcelona play attacking football and so there is a tendancy for them to lose balls. We, on the other hand, play build up football and loosing balls in the final third is what makes us ineffective (this has been the story of our past 2 seasons).

In my opinion, we need a Rooney, Tevez, Ronaldinho type player who will CONSISTENTLY link up play more often than breaking down the link between midfield and attack - LG does not fit this the bill over the course of an entire League season.

[Sabre]

But his numbers are consistent Simari. He's a midfielder, he scored 13 in the first, more than 10 in the second, and before injury, his goal tally was the second best of the team. And he doesn't throw penalties or set pieces.

His goal tally over a season can be a matter of fluke, but not when he does so every season. Sissoko doesn't provide that goals. Pennant neither. So LG must be credited for that aswell, everything must be said, the given away balls, and the goals and assist provided.

While I think Arbeloa, Nuñez, Josemi-ish Spanish contributions are not good enough for this team, I think LG's contribution has been important. Not a key player for me, but important first team member. His value in the market? I have no clue, to be honest.