Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

Ah well at least I tried to have a sensible conversation with the bloke. All about opinions though at the end of the day, and he's as entitled to his as everyone else I guess  .

[Bad Bob]

Ah well at least I tried to have a sensible conversation with the bloke. All about opinions though at the end of the day, and he's as entitled to his as everyone else I guess  .

Sounds like you've got a stalker, mate, as he mentions you in another post.  He mustn't have paid close attention when he was lurking, though, because in all your 2834747474 posts, I've never seen you once say "I cannot decide." 

[bigmick]

I've got a couple of stalkers at the moment Bob. What happened to GFYS BTW, he posted a couple of sensible things then he hasn't been seen since?

[ruskiy playmaker]

Petar, for post number five that's quite confrontational. Anybody who has watched Liverpool regularly has seen Babel do some excellent things, and has seen him be poor as well. Pointing out that he has on occasions been poor is not talking sh!te, it's stating the glaringly obvious. Now you can argue till you're blue in the face that he hasn't been given a fair chance (and he certainly wasn't against West Ham for instance), but you can't sensibly argue that he doesn't run up blind alleys, lacks awareness etc.

Your comment about his decision making is frankly absurd. Riena, Arbeloa, Carragher, Hyppia, Agger, Aurelio, Masherano, Gerrard, Alonso, Kuyt, Benayoun, Riera, Keane and Torres off the top of my head all make better decisons on a consistent basis than Babel. You have highlighted the one area of his game that he most needs to improve on. I'm actually in something of a minority as I quite like him, but lets be serious hey?

You and Bob,now tell me... How many Utd`s players are better than Ronaldo in decision making. Can you see now what am I talking about? He and Ronaldo,or Quaresma,or Nani,or Ibrahimovic,or Hleb,or Kalou,or Walcott can do 5 things per match and they all do,but what makes them better than the 90 percent of other players are their speed,skills,strength,game inteligence... Almost every Ronaldo`s shot go about 20 yards above goal,but defenders are scared of him,so would be scared of Ryan if he is on the pitch constantly. And 2834747474 posts doesn`t mean that you know football better than me. You are not direct poster,as I can see. If someone asked you about Henry in Arsenal,you would say... Hm I am not sure,He barely use his left foot,he can not head the ball,he doesn`t track back enough,but yeah,he is great in front of the goal,so I can not decide

Thank God that somebody finally agrees with me on Babel!

[Effes]

I dont think Babel is good enough.

But if Kuyt can play on the right, I dont understamd why Babel cant.
I dont subscribe to the argument that he is a left winger - who says?
He's right footed and has pace = must be able to do a job on the right (in a 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1).

[Toffeehater]

Rafa for me is shooting him self in the foot with babel a player that has had so many top people in football back him and what does he do stick him out on left where his skills are wasted.

Babel is a fantastic finisher do we ever get to see him doing that no ! why because he hardly ever gets a chance to get into 1v1s.

I keep telling you the stats 2 starts as striker in those 2 starts he baged 3 goals so why don't rafa play him striker cos rafa is a stubbon ar.se hole  thats why. 

Which stats are those? 

So far this season
(1)Started up top against Crewe (Carling Cup) and failed to score

Last season
(1)Started as striker against Cardiff (Carling Cup) and failed to score
(2) Started as striker against Blackburn (Prem) and failed to score
(3)Started as striker against Havant and Waterlooville (FA Cup) and failed to score

For the record, he's scored 8 of his 11 goals for us as sub.  Two more have come as starting LM in a 4-4-2 and the last one as a starter on the left in a 4-2-3-1.  So by my maths, he's actually never scored for us when started as an out-and-out striker.


Link to Soccernet Game Log for Babel 2007-2008

Playing with a weak team does not help his cause as he will not get any service , he has played well against chelsea when he came , besiktas , all when he had decent service and getting a start every 7 games or so , he will not improve if this carries on

[Bam]

I'm not Babels biggest fan on here his touch is pretty bad and his work rate is almost non-exsistant amongst other things. But I'm going to put a cat amongst the pigeons here, and although I highly doubt Rafa will do this, I'm going to suggest it anyway.

Desperate times call for desperate measures ....... Especially with our goal count drying up recently, I'd opt to play him upfront in the next game or two, maybe three if he's able to show more signs of scoriing than Keane or Kuyt.

We all know what he lacks as a footballer and his mentality is a question too. But we've never really seen the lad upfront and although he does lack a few things, he does have pace and hopefully an eye for goal. I think he has some things that both Keane and Kuyt lack (not many) but pace is definately one thing which scares the c.rap out of central defenders. And just maybe he may prove to be more of a genuine goal threat than Keane at the mo. In that respect pace, power of shot, he does resemble Djibril Cisse another player who lacked many many things as a footballer but did on the occasion find the net for us. Something has got to change upfront, Rafa has to find a formula for the shorterm in getting us goals at least until Torres is back.

Keane doesnt look the answer at the moment and from whatever he's suffering ... Pressure, confidence the understanding to link up with his teamates and cause oppositions keepers nightmares. Its all hampering his game, like Keane I think Babel would work better upfront with a partner. But in saying that I think the 4-2-3-1 formation is more likely to get us back on track (proper) than f.ucking around with a 4-4-2 at the moment. The formation plays to our best players strengths and also gets more out of Kuyt and possibly Riera when both are pushed on more.

So although it is a BIG risk in playing Babel upfront added to that on his own, I still reckon its worth the gamble right now. His pace, like Torres' could be key especially when playing away from Home. I dont care what the likes of Stu say when people like him brush aside the attribute off speed and say its one of the most overated attributes a footballer can have. Torres wouldnt be the player he is without his pace, hense the reason not to rush him back to damage his Hammy more. Its an attribute that both player and club have and want and neither want to lose it ala M.Owen. Keane and Kuyt both lack this more direct approach that babel has and of course his pace, so something different maybe the order of the day.

Of course playing uptop on his own I cant imagine his workrate being tip top but if he can produce a genuine goal threat, I dont care about his work rate at the moment. We need goals more than work rate from our strikers at this present point in time.

Disclaimer- I have more or less labelled Babel in the past as a waster, I'm not contradicting myself here. But like I said desperate times (infront of goal) call for desperate measures, and if this "waster" can find a goal or two by being deployed upfront. Then I'm happing for him to prove me wrong even though he really hasnt proven me otherwise in the past, but likewise he hasnt really been given the opportunity upfront neither.

I awate the onslaught.

[bigmick]

No onslaught from me Bam, so bereft of penetration were we the other night I was thinking the same thing. that said, I think it's more likely that Rafa will revert back to the 4-5-1 away to Blackburn, with Kuyt moving back to the right to replace Benayoun. I think he'll go with keane up top with Gerrard in behind and Masherano coming in.

I do though have a sneak that he might be about to give Riera a break. I think he's been very disappointing of late and against West Ham he was poor to be fair. I think it'll be a start for Babel, but back on the left.

[tonyeh]

I've been calling for a start up front for Babel since last season. I would like to have seen him up with Torres, but I am not sure that it's the right time at the moment and especially not on his own.

It's impossible to make a call on Babel as a player, because he has had such a limited time on the pitch and most importantly he has been constantly played out of position by Rafa. I've said before on this forum that Babel is not midfielder, if he's not anything. He has the pace to get around a man, but any more than that and he becomes stuck. But pace to get around a man may be all he needs for a run at goal. He's had some good shots for us and his attempt on goal last Monday night was one of the better opportunities Liverpool had.

In the absence of Torres, who is the only one of our strikers I would play as a single front man, I would start him up with Keane on Saturday and have Gerrard operate in a free role behind them.

While I try and look at as much of the other teams as possible, I'll be honest and say that I can't read Blackburn. I don't really know much about how they play these days, so I cannot make a call on them. However, I think we all agree that a win is necessary and nothing else will suffice.

On a bad note, there was a guy on the radio this morning saying that Torres is having a lot of difficulty getting over this hamstring injury and there's some talk of him being out for the bulk of the season. 

How accurate that is, I don't know. But it ain't good.

[Bad Bob]

I'm not Babels biggest fan on here his touch is pretty bad and his work rate is almost non-exsistant amongst other things. But I'm going to put a cat amongst the pigeons here, and although I highly doubt Rafa will do this, I'm going to suggest it anyway.

Desperate times call for desperate measures ....... Especially with our goal count drying up recently, I'd opt to play him upfront in the next game or two, maybe three if he's able to show more signs of scoriing than Keane or Kuyt.

We all know what he lacks as a footballer and his mentality is a question too. But we've never really seen the lad upfront and although he does lack a few things, he does have pace and hopefully an eye for goal. I think he has some things that both Keane and Kuyt lack (not many) but pace is definately one thing which scares the c.rap out of central defenders. And just maybe he may prove to be more of a genuine goal threat than Keane at the mo. In that respect pace, power of shot, he does resemble Djibril Cisse another player who lacked many many things as a footballer but did on the occasion find the net for us. Something has got to change upfront, Rafa has to find a formula for the shorterm in getting us goals at least until Torres is back.

Keane doesnt look the answer at the moment and from whatever he's suffering ... Pressure, confidence the understanding to link up with his teamates and cause oppositions keepers nightmares. Its all hampering his game, like Keane I think Babel would work better upfront with a partner. But in saying that I think the 4-2-3-1 formation is more likely to get us back on track (proper) than f.ucking around with a 4-4-2 at the moment. The formation plays to our best players strengths and also gets more out of Kuyt and possibly Riera when both are pushed on more.

So although it is a BIG risk in playing Babel upfront added to that on his own, I still reckon its worth the gamble right now. His pace, like Torres' could be key especially when playing away from Home. I dont care what the likes of Stu say when people like him brush aside the attribute off speed and say its one of the most overated attributes a footballer can have. Torres wouldnt be the player he is without his pace, hense the reason not to rush him back to damage his Hammy more. Its an attribute that both player and club have and want and neither want to lose it ala M.Owen. Keane and Kuyt both lack this more direct approach that babel has and of course his pace, so something different maybe the order of the day.

Of course playing uptop on his own I cant imagine his workrate being tip top but if he can produce a genuine goal threat, I dont care about his work rate at the moment. We need goals more than work rate from our strikers at this present point in time.

Disclaimer- I have more or less labelled Babel in the past as a waster, I'm not contradicting myself here. But like I said desperate times (infront of goal) call for desperate measures, and if this "waster" can find a goal or two by being deployed upfront. Then I'm happing for him to prove me wrong even though he really hasnt proven me otherwise in the past, but likewise he hasnt really been given the opportunity upfront neither.

I awate the onslaught.

Good post, Bam.  As you say, our dry spell in front of goal has become a problem that might require some mild experimentation to fix at the moment and maybe giving Babel a run out in his preferred position is worth a look.  Away to Blackburn isn't a terrible time to try it, TBPH.  He won't have the crowd on his back when he runs down blind alleys or gives up early on far-from-lost-causes.  And, Rovers might fancy their chances against us at home, in our current bliiip, and might just come out and look to play some football.  This will leave space for him to run into, which is the only way he'll be effective, IMO.  Play him up top against a well organized side that looks to sit in and defend in two compact banks of four and Babel will be a ghost.  Pace and directness are the dominant attributes in his locker and so he needs to have space to exploit or he'll easily be marked out of things.  I'd be prepared to give him a chance to show what he's capable of--who knows, he might prove some of us doubters wrong.

With all that said, I expect Mick's hunch is correct.  I think we'll be back to Gerrard playing in the hole behind Keane, with Kuyt pushed out to the right.  It may be time to give Babel a game at LM but he'll need to put in a decent shift tracking back, as Blackburn have always been a team that likes to attack down the flanks.

[Bam]

Yeah I agree with the hunch's about the more likely line-ups.

I'd just like to note to some of the "Pro-rotationalists" this isnt advocating rotating 'willy nilly' or 'for the sake of it'. This is the kind of thing I've been explaining all along ... Drop a player if he isnt on form, and see if his replacment can come in with the opportunity given and stake his claim for a more permanent position in the side.

[Owzat]

Talk of Hammill coming back may suggest a return of Kuyt to striking duties.............

[Bam]

Talk of Hammill coming back may suggest a return of Kuyt to striking duties.............

God I hope not.

[Bad Bob]

I'd just like to note to some of the "Pro-rotationalists" this isnt advocating rotating 'willy nilly' or 'for the sake of it'. This is the kind of thing I've been explaining all along ... Drop a player if he isnt on form, and see if his replacment can come in with the opportunity given and stake his claim for a more permanent position in the side.

FFS, get that in the proper disclaimer format.

[account deleted by request]

The problem with playing Babel up front is that Rafa would want him playing off the shoulder of the last man like he did with Cisse. Cisse and Babel ARN'T LIKE OWEN. They prefer running from deeper rather than playing on the last man. You will never get the best out of Babel asking him to just use his pace, he always drops deep BECAUSE THATS HIS GAME. When I have watched him play in Holland, he has always looked more comfortable taking the ball deep and running with it rather than timing runs to beat the offside trap.

The problem we have at the moment is we have 3 strikers (Babel, Kuyt, Keane) ALL of whom prefer playing from deep, and without Torres we have no one to lead the line.  Which is probably one of the reasons Rafa has had more success with playing them on the wings ...... because there they CAN play and run from deeper.

Personally I think we have to play 4-2-3-1 at least until Torres returns. We need Gerrards goalscoring abilities more than his passing and tackling at the moment. As for Babel I don't think he will ever make it unless we start allowing him to play his natural game.