Liverpool FC Forum

[67-1161385641]

I fookin hate Carvalho, he is the most persistent fouler in the Premiership, and he gets away with it.
You watch a Chelsea game and he will give away 5-6 freekicks every game cos he dives in and mistimes most challenges.
I dont think he is in the same league as Gallas.

I think Gallas and Carragher are the two best centre backs in the Premiership, call me bias but Terry is a good defender, so is Rio (when he's on form) and I'm not saying Carvalho isn't a good player, but he's not as good as Gallas or Carragher IMO. I'd go as far as saying Gallas is the best centre back in the Premiership with Carragher just behind him. Gallas was a rock at the back for Chelsea ever since he arrived, he taught Terry a lot and he was constantly a rock at Chelsea's back four over a five year period. Mourinho may have preferred his own signing to that of Gallas, but if you ask any Chelsea fan who they'd rather have play along side Terry out of Carvalho or Gallas, at least three quarters of the majority will say Gallas, because he is one of the best defenders of his age.

Agreed.  Gallas is a top top defender.  One of the best in Europe no doubt.

Rafa clearly doesnt fancy Gerrard in the middle of the park.  When Sissoko is fit I can see why he doesnt play Gerrard in the middle. However without sissoko Gerrard not getting in the side at CM clearly shows Rafa does not have faith in Gerrard playing CM. Zenden may of played well at Birmingham but that was Birmingham.  He should look good v a side a division below.  To even think Zenden could compete against Fabregas is madness.

I think Rafa doesn't rate the partnership of Gerrard and Alonso rather than not rating Gerrard as a CM. I also don't think Rafa rates Bolo higher than Gerrard, I think Rafa has listened to all the criticism branded about with regards to his mass rotation of players, so he's decided to make limited changes and now he's getting stick. I'm sure if Gerrard had played along side Alonso and we lost. Rafa would get flak for not playing Gerrard out on the flank, the man cannot win with some people. Poor Rafa!

[Bad Bob]

For me, the reality is that we are not a side that comes from behind.  That might seem an absurd statement on the back of last year's FA Cup final and, of course, in the wake of Istanbul but, in the league, we struggle hugely when we go a goal down, even against a mediocre side.  Yesterday we were well and truly in the game until we conceded and then it all just drifted away...just as it did at Man U, Bolton and Everton this season. 

Last season we did so superbly well with clean sheets that we gave ourselves a platform to break teams down and grind out a 1-0 win.  We managed 82 points on the back of some impressive defensive work coupled with some timely, if not always eye-catching, goal scoring.  Where has that defensive solidity gone?  We've had the same back four as last season installed for several weeks now but, as a unit, they seem a shadow of their former selves.  Until they--and Reina--rediscover the form that carried us forward last season, we will continue to struggle.

Sadly, going forward, we look as goal shy as ever in big games.  At home and against lesser sides, we carve out chances and stick a fair few away.  Against the big clubs, however, we seem to lack a cutting edge.  Where was the service to Crouch and Kuyt yesterday?  Where was the width?  The directness?  The incisive passing?  For a team that supposedly has improved its attacking options we look decidedly toothless.  Is Garcia the only player we have who can create in tight quarters against a tenacious set of defenders?  It's all so frustrating to watch.

Having said that, I remain firmly 100% behind Rafa and the lads.  I hope that this latest blip is just that and that, in a few weeks time, we'll look back and wonder what some of the fuss was about.  For that to happen, though, the manager and the team need to buck up their ideas and get us back to playing the kind of football that we produced on the back of last season...the kind of football that had us looking like genuine title contenders for the first time in years. 

It starts with bringing Stevie back into the middle to partner Alonso, playing Pennant at RM despite his shortcomings, and getting Garcia wide left.  The rest of the team stays as is--with the possible exception of Agger for Sami.  Most importantly, each of them, to a man, need to start playing with purpose and pride once more.  It's gut check time.

[Ace Ventura]

Rafa clearly doesnt fancy Gerrard in the middle of the park.  When Sissoko is fit I can see why he doesnt play Gerrard in the middle. However without sissoko Gerrard not getting in the side at CM clearly shows Rafa does not have faith in Gerrard playing CM. Zenden may of played well at Birmingham but that was Birmingham.  He should look good v a side a division below.  To even think Zenden could compete against Fabregas is madness.

I disagree, i think he played Zenden because he thought it was better than starting with Pennant, as Pennant has not done anything so far.
I was happy with the decision to start him, and at the time didnt see another option, although i think once we went 1-0 down we should of changed it at half time.
If Pennant plays next game and does well, i am sure the manager would happily play Gerrard in the centre, but ultimately imo he was doing what was best for the balance of the team (sh!t i sounded like rafa with that statement  )

[Bad Bob]

It’s time Rafa came out and said it, he simply doesn’t rate SG as a CM, he rates Bolo more. Yesterday was not about the balance of the team, Pennant could have played right, yesterday was about Rafa telling Stevie he isn’t good enough in the centre. Bizarrely when you consider the same player destroyed teams on his own playing that position with Hamann behind him only 2-3 years ago.

And yet some people are still wondering why SG looks so fed up  and the rest of the team are lookin' for direction.

(to the tune of Maggie May)

"Wake up Rafa I think I've got something to say to you
It's mid November and we really should be back in the groove
the Prem keeps you confused and I'm feeling more abused
Oh Rafa I couldn't have cried anymore
You've bored me away from home
Was that to save you from havin' to atone ?
You stole my pride and thats what really hurts "





 

As much as I don't necessarily agree with your allocation of blame, Woof, that is pure brilliance! 

[alessandromagno]

It's bollox that Rafa rates Bolo more than SG in midfield. Nobodt doeS!

[Pedro O'Maradona]

For me, the reality is that we are not a side that comes from behind.  That might seem an absurd statement on the back of last year's FA Cup final and, of course, in the wake of Istanbul but, in the league, we struggle hugely when we go a goal down, even against a mediocre side.  Yesterday we were well and truly in the game until we conceded and then it all just drifted away...just as it did at Man U, Bolton and Everton this season. 

Last season we did so superbly well with clean sheets that we gave ourselves a platform to break teams down and grind out a 1-0 win.  We managed 82 points on the back of some impressive defensive work coupled with some timely, if not always eye-catching, goal scoring.  Where has that defensive solidity gone?  We've had the same back four as last season installed for several weeks now but, as a unit, they seem a shadow of their former selves.  Until they--and Reina--rediscover the form that carried us forward last season, we will continue to struggle.

Sadly, going forward, we look as goal shy as ever in big games.  At home and against lesser sides, we carve out chances and stick a fair few away.  Against the big clubs, however, we seem to lack a cutting edge.  Where was the service to Crouch and Kuyt yesterday?  Where was the width?  The directness?  The incisive passing?  For a team that supposedly has improved its attacking options we look decidedly toothless.  Is Garcia the only player we have who can create in tight quarters against a tenacious set of defenders?  It's all so frustrating to watch.

Having said that, I remain firmly 100% behind Rafa and the lads.  I hope that this latest blip is just that and that, in a few weeks time, we'll look back and wonder what some of the fuss was about.  For that to happen, though, the manager and the team need to buck up their ideas and get us back to playing the kind of football that we produced on the back of last season...the kind of football that had us looking like genuine title contenders for the first time in years. 

It starts with bringing Stevie back into the middle to partner Alonso, playing Pennant at RM despite his shortcomings, and getting Garcia wide left.  The rest of the team stays as is--with the possible exception of Agger for Sami.  Most importantly, each of them, to a man, need to start playing with purpose and pride once more.  It's gut check time.

here here! lots of good points there

[alessandromagno]

There was too much tinkering with the defence early in the season (some of it forced). Furthermore, I think having Siisoko as the holding player is great as long as there was Didi in the wings--but I don't think Momo was ready to take all the responsibility. I have no idea why Rafa was indifferent to Didi leaving. I honestly believe we would have kept a lot more clean sheets if he'd been still here--even if he was only coming on in the last (crucial) 10 or 15 minutes. Letting Hamman go was a real howler.

[CardinalRed]

Driving home this afternoon I listened to Ronnie Whelan on Talksport talking to Mickey Quinn.... He stated that he reckoned there were 4 or 5 in the LFC team who simply aren't up for it when they go away..... This could have been a bit of a sweeping statement because he didn't go on to say who they were. Mickey Quinn then went on to say that he thought Bolo, Speedy, Luis and Steve Finnan were a bit lightweight and that none of them have a tackle to offer between them. I gotta say he did have a point there, at home they can get away with it 'cause teams play so different at Anfield. What we are gonna get though is a situation where teams see us as a banker when they play us at their place and that simply cannot be allowed to happen.

                                                             

[67-1161385641]

For me, the reality is that we are not a side that comes from behind.  That might seem an absurd statement on the back of last year's FA Cup final and, of course, in the wake of Istanbul but, in the league, we struggle hugely when we go a goal down, even against a mediocre side.  Yesterday we were well and truly in the game until we conceded and then it all just drifted away...just as it did at Man U, Bolton and Everton this season. 

Last season we did so superbly well with clean sheets that we gave ourselves a platform to break teams down and grind out a 1-0 win.  We managed 82 points on the back of some impressive defensive work coupled with some timely, if not always eye-catching, goal scoring.  Where has that defensive solidity gone?  We've had the same back four as last season installed for several weeks now but, as a unit, they seem a shadow of their former selves.  Until they--and Reina--rediscover the form that carried us forward last season, we will continue to struggle.

Sadly, going forward, we look as goal shy as ever in big games.  At home and against lesser sides, we carve out chances and stick a fair few away.  Against the big clubs, however, we seem to lack a cutting edge.  Where was the service to Crouch and Kuyt yesterday?  Where was the width?  The directness?  The incisive passing?  For a team that supposedly has improved its attacking options we look decidedly toothless.  Is Garcia the only player we have who can create in tight quarters against a tenacious set of defenders?  It's all so frustrating to watch.

Having said that, I remain firmly 100% behind Rafa and the lads.  I hope that this latest blip is just that and that, in a few weeks time, we'll look back and wonder what some of the fuss was about.  For that to happen, though, the manager and the team need to buck up their ideas and get us back to playing the kind of football that we produced on the back of last season...the kind of football that had us looking like genuine title contenders for the first time in years. 

It starts with bringing Stevie back into the middle to partner Alonso, playing Pennant at RM despite his shortcomings, and getting Garcia wide left.  The rest of the team stays as is--with the possible exception of Agger for Sami.  Most importantly, each of them, to a man, need to start playing with purpose and pride once more.  It's gut check time.

Great post, I agree wholeheartedly with it, although your slight dig at Reina is unecessary.

[Ace Ventura]

Driving home this afternoon I listened to Ronnie Whelan on Talksport talking to Mickey Quinn.... He stated that he reckoned there were 4 or 5 in the LFC team who simply aren't up for it when they go away..... This could have been a bit of a sweeping statement because he didn't go on to say who they were. Mickey Quinn then went on to say that he thought Bolo, Speedy, Luis and Steve Finnan were a bit lightweight and that none of them have a tackle to offer between them. I gotta say he did have a point there, at home they can get away with it 'cause teams play so different at Anfield. What we are gonna get though is a situation where teams see us as a banker when they play us at their place and that simply cannot be allowed to happen.

                                                             

Think thats a bit harsh on Finnan tbh mate, he is by no means a tough tackler but gets stuck in enough.
The other players mentioned fair enough i suppose.

There wont be any team in the premiership or europe for that matter that would consider playing Liverpool a banker as you put it.
The fact that the away fixtures have been so difficult is being ignored by too many people.
Lets see how we perform at Boro.

[woof woof !]

Driving home this afternoon I listened to Ronnie Whelan on Talksport talking to Mickey Quinn.... He stated that he reckoned there were 4 or 5 in the LFC team who simply aren't up for it when they go away..... This could have been a bit of a sweeping statement because he didn't go on to say who they were. Mickey Quinn then went on to say that he thought Bolo, Speedy, Luis and Steve Finnan were a bit lightweight and that none of them have a tackle to offer between them. I gotta say he did have a point there, at home they can get away with it 'cause teams play so different at Anfield. What we are gonna get though is a situation where teams see us as a banker when they play us at their place and that simply cannot be allowed to happen.

                                                             

Think thats a bit harsh on Finnan tbh mate, he is by no means a tough tackler but gets stuck in enough.

Spot on Ace , considering that Finnan has a RM (Gerrard) in front of him that goes walkabout (Rafa's plan ? ) Finnan is often left defending our right flank entirely on his own . Finnan may not be the best RM in the prem but given whats asked of him you'd be hard pushed to name someone who could do it  better.

[account deleted by request]

Question

Is Rafa beyond criticism ?

The answer to your question Woof is "no" (surprise) 

As far as I am concerned the honeymoon period is well and truly over and Rafa can no longer use the excuse of needing time to acclimatise, get used to the league, its players and style of play.

However each week he makes baffling decisions mainly away from home, yesterday against one of the strongest midfields in the league he played Bolo Zenden against Gilberto and Fabregas – the game was already won.

It was also obvious that Kolo Toure and Gallas would dominate our front two unless we were either aggressive or quick – this was one game where Crouch was meaningless even with his 1ft height advantage. Their defenders simply defended 30 yards higher up the pitch.

Out wide, I think Pennant did OK when he come on, he nearly set up a goal too, and tracked back and made tackles. More than what Gonzalez and Zenden did combined.

It’s time Rafa came out and said it, he simply doesn’t rate SG as a CM, he rates Bolo more. Yesterday was not about the balance of the team, Pennant could have played right, yesterday was about Rafa telling Stevie he isn’t good enough in the centre. Bizarrely when you consider the same player destroyed teams on his own playing that position with Hamann behind him only 2-3 years ago.

I think the key to what you are saying about Rafa and Gerrard is that Gerrard needs Hamann behind him! Alonso and Gerrard as a pair dont seem to have Rafa's confidence. Hamann and Gerrard as a pair did. To understand why think back to the CL final and the way Kaka ran the show first half.  Gerrard has admitted that Kaka was too fast and he couldnt get near him. After Hamann came on Kaka's influence dwindled and died.

So unless we buy Hamann back or a similar defensive midfielder Gerrard is more than likely going to spend most of his time playing RM.

[JC_81]

Haven't been able to post since the game yesterday, it left me feeling physically sick.

First of all, woof's spot on, Rafa is not immune from criticism now and St Mike is also right in saying the honeymoon period is well and truly over.  You can justify playing Gerrard on the right when Sissoko and Alonso are fit and playing well, but away from home to Arsenal why the fu.ck do you play Zenden in the middle and Gerrard on the right??  I couldn't believe it.  And play Gonzalez in this of all games, a must win, when the little Chilean has not settled well at all on these shores yet.  Surely Pennant or Garcia (the man who scored home and away against Arsenal last season) would have been a better bet.

But Benitez can only be blamed to an extent.  Losing 5 games away from home is no coincidence.  Confidence and dare I say it but team spirit are severely lacking.  The players, Alonso apart who I thought had a good game, looked like they couldn't be fu.cked yesterday.  Carra, Gerrard, you name it, none of them looked up for it, the same players who went to Juve and Istanbul 2 seasons ago and won us the CL showed no fight at all yesterday and that was the problem.  They didn't play for each other and there was no positive response or leadership as the goals went in against and that's what worried me.

So this begs the question, what has happened to team morale?  Has the dressing room been unsettled by something?  Because I can't think of another reason why we haven't been able to sort this away form before it has come to 5 defeats in a row.  Why aren't the players playing for Rafa anymore, has he lost the dressing room?  Because it looked like it yesterday.  Has his squad rotation pi.ssed the players off as much as us?  Or is Rafa not to blame and it's the players alone who are letting us down big time?

Whatever the reason we need it sorted quickly. We are out of the title race without a doubt now and if we don't turn things around soon then a CL place will become an uphill battle.  I for one don't have the answers here, but I hope to fu.ck Rafa Benitez does.

[A.B.]

So this begs the question, what has happened to team morale?  Has the dressing room been unsettled by something?  Because I can't think of another reason why we haven't been able to sort this away form before it has come to 5 defeats in a row.  Why aren't the players playing for Rafa anymore, has he lost the dressing room?  Because it looked like it yesterday.  Has his squad rotation pi.ssed the players off as much as us?  Or is Rafa not to blame and it's the players alone who are letting us down big time?

Excellent post in general John, but a question for you. How the feck is the locker room lost away but at home it's fine and dandy? You either have it or you don't.

I'm not saying that Benitez hasn't made mistakes, but personaly the players are letting us down more than anyone else at this club. I'm tired of their aftermatch and prematch club, they all seem to know they're but couldn't be bothered to change that on the pitch.

[112-1077774096]

I disagree, i think he played Zenden because he thought it was better than starting with Pennant, as Pennant has not done anything so far.

and zenden has done what exactly??