ARSENAL VS LIVERPOOL

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Redman in wales » Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:23 pm

HOMER wrote:alonso better than ballack, makalele, fabregas, gilberto, scholes ?
carra better than terry, carvalho, gallas, toure, ferdinand, vidic ?
kuyt better than henry, van persie, sheva, drogba, saha, rooney ?

i notice you only pick certain players to compare to...

alonso is better than Lampard, Carrick, gilberto,

carra is better than carvalho, vidic, brown, O'shea

kuyt is better than van persie, Saha, adaboyor... and in this league... sheva

tell me is Fletcher of utd better than Gerrard? - utd played him on the right wing against us when theyy beat us...
Last edited by Redman in wales on Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby mattylfc » Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:47 pm

Such a strange game in my opinion.  Right up until their first goal we were in control of the game and they had created nothing.  We were keeping the ball well and creating the odd chance.  If anyone looked like scoring it was us.

The second goal was the killer, Van persie got a bit of luck when trying the back-heel and then Toure had the simple job of tucking the ball away.  What was most frustrating as many have mentioned, was the lack of belief that we could actually come back and win the game.  No-one was willing to roll their sleeves up and have a real go. Allthough we were very poor in the second half, the third goal really flattered them.

Tactically, for me the main problem came from CM once more.  I do think that Benitez maybe doesnt have complete confidence in the likes of pennant and garcia away from home so he had no alternative than to play Gerrard on the right.  Aswell as Gerrard being our best option on the right, i also feel that Bentitez wanted a wise head in the middle (zenden) to try and keep some shape and keep the ball.  Unfortunately though, in playing Alonso and Zenden in the middle together it gave us a problem that we have suffered with all season away from home.  We had no-one to break forward from midfield and link up with the attackers giving them support required, an asset that Gerrard posesses.  We had no-one to get in the box and stretch Arsenal (like fabregas did for the first goal). 

I do personally like Gerrard on the right and he has proven over the last couple of seasons that he is superb out there.  Yesterday however, i do feel that Gerrard should have been in the centre and i think that he needs to be playing in the middle with Alonso for future games whilst Sissoko is out. 

What also annoys me is the fact that we have a completely different mentality when playing away from home in the CL.  When i watch us in the CL i think that the system works great. We play compact , defend well and have belief that we will punish them on the counter.  In the prem we seem to try and dominate the play but are far too cautious, we never seem to think that we are actually better than the opponents and that we can walk away with three points by out-playing them and not just by nicking a goal on the counter attack.

I didnt think for one minute that we were going to win the league this season and unfortunately it has now probably
been confirmed.  That doesnt worry me too much though as i think that next year will be the real test, the season that we can really judge Benitez on a squad that he has helped build.

What does worry me is whether our squad will be good enough. I think its safe to say that Benitez has made some superb signings in the form of Alonso, Sissoko,Agger and Kuyt to name a few, money well spent.  Unfortunately however, there are too many players that keep posing the question of whether or not they are good enough to play for a team challenging for the prem title.

Would the likes of Pennant, Gonzalez, Bellamy and Aurelio get in the starting eleven of the 'big three'? Unfortunately i think not.  The reason that i am saying this is not to point the finger but merely to say that when it comes down to it our team just maybe isnt as strong as the top three.  We have a squad that can compete with them and get them worried but to we have a team that can actually beat the big three. 

Personally i think we are not too far away and under Rafa we have made a great improvement.  We are just three or four top top players short of being a real force.  The only question remains as to whether or not we can actually go and get those players to take us to the next level, i do hope so.
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Postby Redman in wales » Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:30 pm

mattylfc wrote:Would the likes of Pennant, Gonzalez, Bellamy and Aurelio get in the starting eleven of the 'big three'? Unfortunately i think not.  The reason that i am saying this is not to point the finger but merely to say that when it comes down to it our team just maybe isnt as strong as the top three.  We have a squad that can compete with them and get them worried but to we have a team that can actually beat the big three. 

Personally i think we are not too far away and under Rafa we have made a great improvement.  We are just three or four top top players short of being a real force.  The only question remains as to whether or not we can actually go and get those players to take us to the next level, i do hope so.

unfortunately i agree with you matty. we are still 3 or 4 players away... and we dont really have the money to do it all at once... it could well be one first-team player signing per season. kuyt was this summers signing... next summer will be a winger, the following summer will be another winger... the following season a partner for kuyt.... and then some stengthening of our back-line.

In todays market every quality signing will cost over 10mil, unless you unearth a gem like sissoko or Agger or cultivate some young blood in our academy. we really need to pinch arsenals scouts, as they maybe all forgein, but they seen to be able to pick up some awesome young talented players for next to nothing.
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Postby puroresu » Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:38 pm

Redman in wales wrote:
HOMER wrote:alonso better than ballack, makalele, fabregas, gilberto, scholes ?
carra better than terry, carvalho, gallas, toure, ferdinand, vidic ?
kuyt better than henry, van persie, sheva, drogba, saha, rooney ?

i notice you only pick certain players to compare to...

alonso is better than Lampard, Carrick, gilberto,

carra is better than carvalho, vidic, brown, O'shea

kuyt is better than van persie, Saha, adaboyor... and in this league... sheva

tell me is Fletcher of utd better than Gerrard? - utd played him on the right wing against us when theyy beat us...

Carra isnt better than Carvalho.
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Postby mattylfc » Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:52 pm

Thats the worrying thing Redman.  The players that we require are top players and come very expensive as you say.
Its just very hard as Liverpool fans to be patient, get through the transitional period and accept that we arent quite good enough but will get better. 

Unfortunately too many signings have just not been playing to their full potential.  When you see that Rafa bought Bellamy, Pennant and Gonzalez for the same price as Carrick you cant argue that its good business and to be completely honest i didnt complain about any of the signings when we first signed them, i was happy. Unfortunately, to date, not one of them has performed to anywhere near their full potential. Just hope they can turn it around.

I thought the same thing about Arsenals scouts, i too hope we can find someone in the mould of eboue/fabregas. Unfortunately the likes of Gerrard, Owen, Carragher, Fowler dont come along too often.
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Postby 67-1161385641 » Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:52 pm

puroresu wrote:
Redman in wales wrote:
HOMER wrote:alonso better than ballack, makalele, fabregas, gilberto, scholes ?
carra better than terry, carvalho, gallas, toure, ferdinand, vidic ?
kuyt better than henry, van persie, sheva, drogba, saha, rooney ?

i notice you only pick certain players to compare to...

alonso is better than Lampard, Carrick, gilberto,

carra is better than carvalho, vidic, brown, O'shea

kuyt is better than van persie, Saha, adaboyor... and in this league... sheva

tell me is Fletcher of utd better than Gerrard? - utd played him on the right wing against us when theyy beat us...

Carra isnt better than Carvalho.

Nope, I agree I mean Carragher being more reliable than Carvalho doesn't mean much, Carragher having better statistics than any other central defender for the seasons 2004/05 and 2005/06 doesn't count for anything. Carragher is better than anyone on the list so far, now if you were to mention Gallas to me, I might well agree with you, but certainly not Carvalho.
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Postby stmichael » Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:07 pm

Ola Mr Benitez wrote:I am trying to look for some positives from yesterday, but to be honest I cant think of any...

we're still in the FA Cup
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Postby puroresu » Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:26 pm

CharmlessMan wrote:
puroresu wrote:
Redman in wales wrote:
HOMER wrote:alonso better than ballack, makalele, fabregas, gilberto, scholes ?
carra better than terry, carvalho, gallas, toure, ferdinand, vidic ?
kuyt better than henry, van persie, sheva, drogba, saha, rooney ?

i notice you only pick certain players to compare to...

alonso is better than Lampard, Carrick, gilberto,

carra is better than carvalho, vidic, brown, O'shea

kuyt is better than van persie, Saha, adaboyor... and in this league... sheva

tell me is Fletcher of utd better than Gerrard? - utd played him on the right wing against us when theyy beat us...

Carra isnt better than Carvalho.

Nope, I agree I mean Carragher being more reliable than Carvalho doesn't mean much, Carragher having better statistics than any other central defender for the seasons 2004/05 and 2005/06 doesn't count for anything. Carragher is better than anyone on the list so far, now if you were to mention Gallas to me, I might well agree with you, but certainly not Carvalho.

Carvalho is underrated.  It isnt just Terry which makes Chelsea solid at the back. The fact that Jose picked Carvalho at CB instead of Gallas shows how vital he is to the chelsea back four. Carvalho was excellent at Porto as well and his 2 seasons in England have been nothing but a success. I like Carragher and his been immense since Rafa came to Anfield however I wouldnt pick him ahead of Carvalho.
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Postby woof woof ! » Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:32 pm

Question

Is Rafa beyond criticism ?

Gerrard continues at RM despite CM being his best position ( in the opinion of himself and 90% of people who know something about football agreeing with him ).

Gonzales at LM ? , Against one of the quickest and best passing sides in Europe we employ a player at LM who has great pace but absolutely no defensive qualities .

Zonal marking ? Great when a settled side know exactley whats what but the arguement between Gerrard and Riise is surely evidence that when it comes to defending set pieces (and not just against Arsenal) some of our lads don't know sh'it from shoeshine.

Sissoko unavailable , check the squad for a suitable replacement , ZENDEN ? (Rafa makes mental note to himself, can't use one of the worlds best CM's to fill in cause we're using him at RM ,until we at least go 2-0 down)

Reina , low on confidence , flapping about a bit BUT what the fu'ck , lets not put any more pressure on him by giving Dudek,the hero of Istanbul, a chance to re-establish himself, at least Reina speaks Spanish and was one of my buys.

Could go on and on . Spent to much time reading and participating in threads that slated our players , bottom line ? On paper we have a good squad (many of them signed by Rafa) , it's up to the manager to get the best out of them , so far this season ? , he hasn't .


Forget any thoughts of prem titles , the battle (as I mentioned it would be weeks ago) is now on to qualify for next seasons CL . Hopefully Rafa will lead us to another CL title to make next seasons CL qualification automatic  :D  (I still respect him enough to consider this a posiibility , but I'm not putting my mortgage on it. )
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Postby Ace Ventura » Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:35 pm

I fookin hate Carvalho, he is the most persistent fouler in the Premiership, and he gets away with it.
You watch a Chelsea game and he will give away 5-6 freekicks every game cos he dives in and mistimes most challenges.
I dont think he is in the same league as Gallas.
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ALLLRIGHTY THEN !!
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Postby stmichael » Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:42 pm

woof woof ! wrote:Question

Is Rafa beyond criticism ?

The answer to your question Woof is "no" (surprise)  :D

As far as I am concerned the honeymoon period is well and truly over and Rafa can no longer use the excuse of needing time to acclimatise, get used to the league, its players and style of play.

However each week he makes baffling decisions mainly away from home, yesterday against one of the strongest midfields in the league he played Bolo Zenden against Gilberto and Fabregas – the game was already won.

It was also obvious that Kolo Toure and Gallas would dominate our front two unless we were either aggressive or quick – this was one game where Crouch was meaningless even with his 1ft height advantage. Their defenders simply defended 30 yards higher up the pitch.

Out wide, I think Pennant did OK when he come on, he nearly set up a goal too, and tracked back and made tackles. More than what Gonzalez and Zenden did combined.

It’s time Rafa came out and said it, he simply doesn’t rate SG as a CM, he rates Bolo more. Yesterday was not about the balance of the team, Pennant could have played right, yesterday was about Rafa telling Stevie he isn’t good enough in the centre. Bizarrely when you consider the same player destroyed teams on his own playing that position with Hamann behind him only 2-3 years ago.
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Postby 67-1161385641 » Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:47 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:I fookin hate Carvalho, he is the most persistent fouler in the Premiership, and he gets away with it.
You watch a Chelsea game and he will give away 5-6 freekicks every game cos he dives in and mistimes most challenges.
I dont think he is in the same league as Gallas.

I think Gallas and Carragher are the two best centre backs in the Premiership, call me bias but Terry is a good defender, so is Rio (when he's on form) and I'm not saying Carvalho isn't a good player, but he's not as good as Gallas or Carragher IMO. I'd go as far as saying Gallas is the best centre back in the Premiership with Carragher just behind him. Gallas was a rock at the back for Chelsea ever since he arrived, he taught Terry a lot and he was constantly a rock at Chelsea's back four over a five year period. Mourinho may have preferred his own signing to that of Gallas, but if you ask any Chelsea fan who they'd rather have play along side Terry out of Carvalho or Gallas, at least three quarters of the majority will say Gallas, because he is one of the best defenders of his age.
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Postby puroresu » Mon Nov 13, 2006 6:10 pm

CharmlessMan wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:I fookin hate Carvalho, he is the most persistent fouler in the Premiership, and he gets away with it.
You watch a Chelsea game and he will give away 5-6 freekicks every game cos he dives in and mistimes most challenges.
I dont think he is in the same league as Gallas.

I think Gallas and Carragher are the two best centre backs in the Premiership, call me bias but Terry is a good defender, so is Rio (when he's on form) and I'm not saying Carvalho isn't a good player, but he's not as good as Gallas or Carragher IMO. I'd go as far as saying Gallas is the best centre back in the Premiership with Carragher just behind him. Gallas was a rock at the back for Chelsea ever since he arrived, he taught Terry a lot and he was constantly a rock at Chelsea's back four over a five year period. Mourinho may have preferred his own signing to that of Gallas, but if you ask any Chelsea fan who they'd rather have play along side Terry out of Carvalho or Gallas, at least three quarters of the majority will say Gallas, because he is one of the best defenders of his age.

Agreed.  Gallas is a top top defender.  One of the best in Europe no doubt.

Rafa clearly doesnt fancy Gerrard in the middle of the park.  When Sissoko is fit I can see why he doesnt play Gerrard in the middle. However without sissoko Gerrard not getting in the side at CM clearly shows Rafa does not have faith in Gerrard playing CM. Zenden may of played well at Birmingham but that was Birmingham.  He should look good v a side a division below.  To even think Zenden could compete against Fabregas is madness.
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Postby joko » Mon Nov 13, 2006 6:12 pm

HOMER wrote:how many liverpool players would get into the arsenal team - gerrard ?
how many liverpool players would get into manure - gerrard ?
how many liverpool players would get into chelski team - ?

says it all really - no wonder we're no closer to winning he league !

kidding that
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Postby woof woof ! » Mon Nov 13, 2006 6:38 pm

stmichael wrote:It’s time Rafa came out and said it, he simply doesn’t rate SG as a CM, he rates Bolo more. Yesterday was not about the balance of the team, Pennant could have played right, yesterday was about Rafa telling Stevie he isn’t good enough in the centre. Bizarrely when you consider the same player destroyed teams on his own playing that position with Hamann behind him only 2-3 years ago.

And yet some people are still wondering why SG looks so fed up  and the rest of the team are lookin' for direction.

(to the tune of Maggie May)

"Wake up Rafa I think I've got something to say to you
It's mid November and we really should be back in the groove
the Prem keeps you confused and I'm feeling more abused
Oh Rafa I couldn't have cried anymore
You've bored me away from home
Was that to save you from havin' to atone ?
You stole my pride and thats what really hurts "





  :down:
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