Liverpool FC Forum

[Penguins]

Isn't it quite obvious what I'm trying to say?
Try reading the post slowly.

But what it all comes down to is that I see it as ahuge waste of players and money to have 5 CM when they all want to play regurlar 1st team football.

We will also not have endless amount of money so selling one would be good business since there is no way to keep them all happy and it would help improving other part of the squad which in all honesty is lacking.
And making Lucas, the brazilan footballer of the year a league cup player and reserve team player would be big waste, not only cause he cost £8m but cause everything points to that he will be an even greater player. But if he gets sidelined all the time he might want to move on cause that would be natural if Rafa decides never to play him. That would be the case if we don't sell anyone.

And not playing Masch just to make Alonso and momo happy so they sign new contracts would be an even worse mistake.

And LFC2007, just cause you are on love with Kewell(the one who never is fit) and Momo(the athlete who can't pass) doesn't make my opinion less worthy.

[redsince2001]

basically he's saying we got 5 CM's .... alonso ,gerrard,lucas,momo,mascherano .... and he doesnt want gerrard to play on the right ...so thats 5 world class midfielders .... 2 slots ( assuming we play 4-4-2) ... all of these players will be unhappy when they have to sit out ... so the likes of momo and lucas or mascherano would move on if they don't get the desired playin time..... AND THAT'LL BE WORRYING TO HIM !!





me make any sense ??

[LFC2007]

And LFC2007, just cause you are on love with Kewell(the one who never is fit) and Momo(the athlete who can't pass) doesn't make my opinion less worthy.

Haahah you're one hell of a joker!



















































NOT

[Penguins]

basically he's saying we got 5 CM's .... alonso ,gerrard,lucas,momo,mascherano .... and he doesnt want gerrard to play on the right ...so thats 5 world class midfielders .... 2 slots ( assuming we play 4-4-2) ... all of these players will be unhappy when they have to sit out ... so the likes of momo and lucas or mascherano would move on if they don't get the desired playin time..... AND THAT'LL BE WORRYING TO HIM !!





me make any sense ??

Well, that's about half of the points I make..



Well, I thought I was funny, at least a little bit 

[LFC2007]

If Rafa sells Alonso ahead of Sissoko I'll be very dissapointed in Rafa. And if just to keep Momo happy so he signs a new contract and lets him play ahead of Mascherano I am going to be even more dissapointed.

We have 5 CM and 4 wants regular football and no rotation.
But Lucas isn't some unknown prospect, but one of the best CM to come out of Brazil for years. Gerrard, masch and lucas isn't going anywhere 100%.

I don't want Gerrard at right wing and masch has shown he is the best midfielder we've got to take out the oppositions best players and protect the back 4.
Alonso might be  bit slow and suspect defensivly and his tackling is a bit off, but he's a brillant footballer with skills and passing. So he is a good player to have and he'll get enough games.
Then Momo and Lucas will be 2 very frustrated players next season cause I can not understand how Momo can be unhappy with his playing time this past season.
He played at least every other game and got games even after he had some poor ones. and letting a £8m signing sit on the bench or not even that would be a big waste of money and would alienate the player right away wanting him to leave for italy and Spain when given the chance.
And if Masch gets sacrificed just cause his long term future might be uncertain and then is let to leave I'll seriously question Liverpool and rafa's ambition since it's obvious that masch just oozes class.

FFS, I have to respond because your numptieness precedes you.

Disclaimer: Everything I say is in My opinion.


Here's a reply to the points you made in this post in turn:

1) Sabre posted an Article yesterday reporting that Alonso confirmed his future lay at Liverpool. Rafa has come out in the past many times and said, these are the core players: Reina, Carra, Alonso, Gerrard. And signalled his intent to keep them as part of a long term project. Another article posted today said how Rafa planned to tie both Alonso and Momo down to long term contracts as he sees their future at Liverpool.

Your first point is based on what exactly, the "IF" is unfounded. What evidence is there to suggest that Rafa would a) intend to sell either of them and b) sell Alonso ahead of Momo

There is no evidence ( no concrete evidence i.e. words out of player's mouths) It is you speculating in your own little world.


Do you think Rafa would let Momo sign another contact just to "keep Momo happy" ?

Is Rafa that naive?

I don't think so.


We have 5 CM who ALL want regular first team football.
Lucas is an unknown prospect, an unknown prospect with plenty of credibility in Brazil but unproven in England. One of the best CM from Brazil in years? Good for him, but that counts for nothing in England. Kleberson wa sthe nuts in Brazil - but couldn't cut it in England, just like a host of others who have failed in Europe.



"masch and lucas isn't going anywhere 100%."

Masch is not a permanent signing, Lucas is unproven in England, if anything I would say Alonso is more assured of his future here than either of those two.



Has Mascheranio had a prolonged stint playing meaningful premiership matches?

No.



"Then Momo and Lucas will be 2 very frustrated players next season cause I can not understand how Momo can be unhappy with his playing time this past season."


Do you think any player is happy with being on the bench?

It is only natural, if Momo was happy and cheery I'd be worried.


"And if Masch gets sacrificed just cause his long term future might be uncertain and then is let to leave I'll seriously question Liverpool and rafa's ambition since it's obvious that masch just oozes class."


As for this, I don't have words to express the numptieness of the content.



Your whole argument is based on one word "IF".


"IF" Ronaldinho signed for Accrington Stanley I'd seriously question his ambition since it's obvious that Stanley don't ooze class.

[Penguins]

It's not about any IFs.
Because it looks like Gerrard, Masch, Alonso, Sissoko, Lucas will all be here next season. And the is the problem!

All I am saying is that 5 CM who wants 1st team regular football will not work.

For me 4-4-2 is that way to go in the PL.
Gerrard is a given and I see him as most effective as a CM but not to play in the hole either.
Masch is for me the one who would work best with Gerrard because of his qualities. Just great at taking out the best players and protectic the back 4.

Then when it comes to Alonso we all know he is in no way satisfied of starting any games(especially important games) on the bench. He is still skilled enough to get his games when we play 4-5-1 and when we play some teams where we don't need help for the back 4.

Sissoko played more often than he didn't this last season except when he was injured and still he said he needed to start more games if he was to stay. He wasn't happy with the situation as it was.

You may think of Lucas just as some unknown prospect. I DO NOT. He is a top class player who was voted player of the year and he is only 20! Except for a few exceptions everyone that has won that award were/are great players.
He is know to play deep and still getting forward with great vision and passing. Seems to have a great engine and with a big amount of other top clubs after him all signs points that he will be great. And then u pick Kleberson as an example when he is the only one that has failed practically and so many more has succeded.
To pay that amount for a player and then not play him would be terrible management and a big waster of money and talent IMO.

And since masch didn't come until February, Zenden played more to the left and that Sissoko was injured for a part we only had Gerrard, Alonso and Masch/Momo to pick from and still some players had to sit out the most coveted games.
Even the untouchable Alonso.

Now we will have 5 (which I don't hope) not counting Guthrie and others and all good and I can't see Lucas just accepting(not for long) coming from Gremio as a celebrated star, playing in copa libertadores(semi final now) being voted top player and just get a few starts in the league cup.
Then he won't sign a new contract and leave for Italy and become great there instead IMO.

[Sabre]

I'd agree with you Penguins, if we only played the league. But bear in mind the amount of matches we have to play. Lots!!

Alonso isn't satisfied of being in the bench? no player is. But he has to accept Penguins that he's in a top club, and in top clubs you haven't your spot won by Royal Decree: he'd have to fight for his place of course.

Not only it's not a problem in my view, it's a bless to have so much competition. And the ones who want to play more, they'd have the early cups and their rotation chances to show what they're capable of. That's how you do nowadays a n all winning club!!

I like competition, even if that means that some of my fav players are going to be sat down. The team as a whole is what that matters.

[LFC2007]

It's not about any IFs.
Because it looks like Gerrard, Masch, Alonso, Sissoko, Lucas will all be here next season. And the is the problem!

All I am saying is that 5 CM who wants 1st team regular football will not work.

For me 4-4-2 is that way to go in the PL.
Gerrard is a given and I see him as most effective as a CM but not to play in the hole either.
Masch is for me the one who would work best with Gerrard because of his qualities. Just great at taking out the best players and protectic the back 4.

Then when it comes to Alonso we all know he is in no way satisfied of starting any games(especially important games) on the bench. He is still skilled enough to get his games when we play 4-5-1 and when we play some teams where we don't need help for the back 4.

Sissoko played more often than he didn't this last season except when he was injured and still he said he needed to start more games if he was to stay. He wasn't happy with the situation as it was.

You may think of Lucas just as some unknown prospect. I DO NOT. He is a top class player who was voted player of the year and he is only 20! Except for a few exceptions everyone that has won that award were/are great players.
He is know to play deep and still getting forward with great vision and passing. Seems to have a great engine and with a big amount of other top clubs after him all signs points that he will be great. And then u pick Kleberson as an example when he is the only one that has failed practically and so many more has succeded.
To pay that amount for a player and then not play him would be terrible management and a big waster of money and talent IMO.

And since masch didn't come until February, Zenden played more to the left and that Sissoko was injured for a part we only had Gerrard, Alonso and Masch/Momo to pick from and still some players had to sit out the most coveted games.
Even the untouchable Alonso.

Now we will have 5 (which I don't hope) not counting Guthrie and others and all good and I can't see Lucas just accepting(not for long) coming from Gremio as a celebrated star, playing in copa libertadores(semi final now) being voted top player and just get a few starts in the league cup.
Then he won't sign a new contract and leave for Italy and become great there instead IMO.

Everything you say lacks coherence and consistency and is largely centred around "IF". We can all say "IF" but you apply no perspective when you speculate, nor do you give evidence from what the manager has said and what players have said when trying to justify your argument.


1) "All I am saying is that 5 CM who wants 1st team regular football will not work."

So it's 5 now, not 4 who want first team football as you said earlier.


2) Would you expect any midfield player: Alonso, Gerrard, Mascherano, Lucas or Sissoko to be happy on the bench?

NO!

They get on with it and try to work their way back into the team!!!!!!!

That's what is called COMPETITION.


We need a relatively settled squad in terms of selection but there will be INJURIES, DIFFERENT GAME STRATEGIES, DIPS IN FORM and our MATCH SCHEDULE that determine that it is not possible and UNLIKELY for the partnership to be Mascherano and Gerrard all the time.

Given that Mascherano has played no meaningful premier league matches I consider it more likely that Alonso would be trusted in certain games away from home especially at th ebeginning of the season, but we know Rafa likes to rotate and he will take it game by game.




Lucas IS an unknown prospect in England, just like any other player who hasn't played here before. Lucas more so given a) his age, b) he is coming from a weaker league; a league with an entirely different style and where the defending is poor c) he has no experience of European football or the organisation with which european teams play.

He is a top class player in BRAZIL, the standard is different, have you ever seen the defending in Brazilian league matches?

It is abysmal compared to much of Europe.

He won the Brazilian league player of the year award, just like plenty of other flops have done. When you say virtually every player who won the award has been great, you have your facts wrong, there are SOME who have been great, and SOME who have failed miserably in Europe. Did Ronaldinho win that award?

No, an award is an indicator, but an indicator of his talent in BRAZIL and only BRAZIL.

You haven't a bloody clue about the failure of talent from South America, particularly from Brazil: Rochemback, Kleberson, Edmundo, Marcelinho, Veron, Edilson, Amoroso, Giovanni, Sampaio.

All had big reputations, some winning the Brazilian league player of the year award, then going t!ts up in Europe.

Do you really think Lucas is going to start every game when he come shere, or start as many as Mascherano or Alonso?

I would draw analagy with Denilson for Arsenal, a young atlented player who needs time to adapt to English football and English life - that is not a waste of talent if he only plays 10-15 games next season, it is called ADAPTING.


I should think Rafa knows how to manage Lucas, and how to go about striking a balance between adaptation and playing time.

You are a cadbury fruit and nut cake if you think Lucas is going to somehow dissent at not being a regular, he has shown humility in some of the quotes he has given already - he knows he must ADAPT and get used to England and learn English before he has a signinficant chance of playing week in week out in the league.


As for:



"Then he won't sign a new contract and leave for Italy and become great there instead IMO."


Lord help you son!

[mistyred]

Why all the Arguments and stupid petty f*cking snipes on nearly every discussion on this forum? since i joined way back when this place has really gone t*ts up

[Sabre]

Why all the Arguments and stupid petty f*cking snipes on nearly every discussion on this forum? since i joined way back when this place has really gone t*ts up

I have a couple of answers for that, but I'll just share your frustration, as I don't like too harsh arguements because it cuts football discussions and prevents other users from joining discussions. Myself, I've been involved in quite many of them,but against my will.



I think that everything would be nice if we discussed about football, even harshly about football, but we refrained from personal comments -- and I have done so aswell. It makes a huge difference.

I also think that the mods should remind us a couple of times that, they're good posters and mods, and they're respected by all of us, and they shouldn't be afraid of dishing a card to old Sabre -for instance- to remind him we come to discuss about football, not about posters.

Viva el Football!

[LFC2007]

Argument is a healthy sign of debate, as for the sniping, that is something that people start off - they can't expect a cheery reply, if people are prepared to dish it out they've gotta be prepared to take it.

[Sabre]

Argument is a healthy sign of debate, as for the sniping, that is something that people start off - they can't expect a cheery reply, if people are prepared to dish it out they've gotta be prepared to take it.

Yes, very true, I agree completely. But if someone starts off a discussion with insults, and the other one responds, then you have a constant tennis match of petty discussions, and the thread is then of those two or three posters, not ALL the posters. So there must be someone who cuts that when it happens.

And we have respected mods for that.

[LFC2007]

Well it's not as if this thread has been a tennis match of insults. There is a big difference between saying "You are a Cu.nt" and to "I think the content of your post is shi.t". One is personal, and the other is an opinion of the content of the post and only that.

[Sabre]

Haha, not talking about your posts mate, or this thread, but the petty discussions there have been. TO make my point, I'll take the blame, as I've taken part in that kind of discussions. I think that I should have a warning by now.

[LFC2007]

I think the attitude of the Mod's is far more laid back compared with other forums, and in a way that is a benefit, but sometimes if the insults are perpetual and they are a personal attack on others then something must be done in the interests of attracting newbies and keeping it purely to footballing debate.

But, just to make my point again. I don't have a problem with someone saying "In my opinion the content of your post is sh!t", it's when people make personal attacks on others and continue to do it where it becomes a problem.