Liverpool FC Forum

[GYBS]

So basically we are were we are because of other teams ? nothing to do with us deserving it -

Bob has got it spot on with people not giving credit where it was due and if we did win the league i bet you would say it was because we were handed it or because other teams where rubbish ??

[Bad Bob]

Because they've done worse than us. Look, this isn't rocket science.

Liverpool haven't progressed, they simply capitalised on bad seasons for the other three.

Our performances on the field haven't been good in the majority of cases.

There is no real progression to be seen here.

So, on the one hand we get people telling us that all that matters is the league table (we finished 1 point off 2nd in 05/06, for instance, but it's still emphasized that we ONLY came in 3rd that season) and yet here you are saying that we should disregard the league table and judge our progress based on form.  On top of that, we're only allowed to do that for us and not for our rivals, who get a pass for not progressing in terms of their own form and going backwards down the table, while Rafa gets no credit for moving us up the table, regardless of how we managed to do it.  The mind truly boggles sometimes.

[tonyeh]

It doesn't matter what they were supposed to do. The fact of the matter is they haven't played at their usual standard and we have been playing pretty badly in the vast majority of our games, but have capitalised on the others bad performance.

The point being, that if Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea had been playing like they were last year, Liverpool would have been out of the race long before now and scrapping for 4th spot again.

It's not a matter of Liverpool progressing, more like the other three having below par seasons.

Or, you could argue that we've been playing nowhere near as well as we are capable of either.  I've barely seen glimpses of the form we had from this point until the end of the season last year.  We played some top football in March and April, with the Torres and Gerrard partnership especially excelling.  Had we reproduced that form this season it's entirely possible that we'd be sitting second (dare I say maybe even top?  Who knows?) even if Arsenal and Chelsea were playing to their standards.  It's baseless speculation to sit there and say that we'd be struggling away in fourth were it not for Chelsea and Arsenal's poor form.

Incidentally, Mick asked in another thread why people get wound up with the criticism and this is a good case in point.  As someone who's drifted into the fuzzy grey middle between the happy clappers and the doom and gloomers in the past couple of months, I can see the validity of both sides of the debate.  What gets me annoyed, though, is when people take it all a step too far.  There's more than enough actual things to criticize about Rafa, the squad, the board etc. without needing to fabricate scenarios about how bad off we'd be if Chelsea and Arsenal were having a good season.  Some people always want to take criticism to the nth degree and negate ANYTHING that has gone right for us.  It's all chalked up to luck or Gerrard's brilliance or generous refereeing or whatever else can be trotted out to explain away the fact that we're still a lot better off this season in relation to the league table than we have been at any other point under Rafa.  That doesn't mean mistakes haven't been made--they have in spades--but, FFS, just a little credit where credit's due wouldn't go amiss when it comes to evaluating our season.  Bottom line: I find criticism of Rafa and the lads a lot more credible when the positives are acknowledged rather than nitpicked into oblivion.

That may be the case Bob, but I can only go on what I've seen before me and that tells me that despite (there's that word again) being in 2nd place, we haven't played better football than last year. In fact, I'd say in general our performances have been worse than last season.

What I'm saying is, if Liverpool's season had played out the same way, but Chelsea, Arsenal and Utd were playing to their usual standard, Liverpool would be looking at a fouth spot.

To me, that indicates that we have not progressed since last season.

This opinion isn't a "step to far", it's based on what I see before me during the games...and what I see tells me that there hasn't been any real progression in the side.

[Alex G.]

Curiously we only lost 1 game.  1 GAME FROM 26!!!! But the draws are Killing us this year again.

[Sabre]

"I don't think this game is important for my contract," said Benitez ahead of Wednesday's first leg at the Santiago Bernabeu.

"It is an important game for us as a club, that's it.

"You know the situation and we have to wait. We have a lot of important games coming up.
"You have to judge a manager on his career, not one or two games. That is my idea.

"If you have to decide on a manager on the basis of one or two games that is not the best decision."

Precisely because I don't think posters take decissions for 5 years lightly, I always assumed that those who want the manager out had really made their decissions a lot of time ago. It's difficult to understand that 2 months ago someone is right for the charge for the next 5 years, and you realise in a blip where you've noticed Gerrards' absence impact that he's actually not. It smells a bit that.


4 years and a half should be enough to offer a contract to someone or tell him that you don't count on him.

The Americans seem to have offered  a contract that could not be accepted by Rafa, and win time. Which is OK but something that Rafa or anyone will notice soon. They're stalling. They never trusted the manager (Klinsmann) but didn't have the balls to tell him so earlier this season, because the situation would be very uncomfortable for them if Rafa won the league and they had told him that he won't continue. How could they explain that to the supporters? They couldn't.

With all these signs and quotes I can't see Rafa here next year.

[GYBS]

BUTS and IFS mean nothing toneyh - surely its the end result for liverpool that matters not how we get there - and in that case then we have progressed .

[tonyeh]

Because they've done worse than us. Look, this isn't rocket science.

Liverpool haven't progressed, they simply capitalised on bad seasons for the other three.

Our performances on the field haven't been good in the majority of cases.

There is no real progression to be seen here.

So, on the one hand we get people telling us that all that matters is the league table (we finished 1 point off 2nd in 05/06, for instance, but it's still emphasized that we ONLY came in 3rd that season) and yet here you are saying that we should disregard the league table and judge our progress based on form.  On top of that, we're only allowed to do that for us and not for our rivals, who get a pass for not progressing in terms of their own form and going backwards down the table, while Rafa gets no credit for moving us up the table, regardless of how we managed to do it.  The mind truly boggles sometimes.

I don't get how you guys are not understanding the point Bob.

I cannot say that the team has "progressed", when we've played badly in the majority of games.

Look, I don't care about what other teams are doing. I care about how Liverpool is doing. It's Liverpool's progress I'm concerned about and this season, I haven't seen the progress in the side that GYBS is talking about.

[GYBS]

Im talking about progress in terms of challenging for the league and the points we are getting and the position we are in the league . there is progress right there - facts state the progress at the moment .

[tonyeh]

BUTS and IFS mean nothing toneyh - surely its the end result for liverpool that matters not how we get there - and in that case then we have progressed .

No...if the other teams in the "big four" have gone down a notch, but we have continued to play the same as last season (worse IMO), then that is not a sign of the team progressing.

Look...Chelsea only have to have won one of their losses and we'd be in 3rd place behind them.

It doesn't do me any good to be saying this and I'd love it if Liverpool had had convincing victories and wins against the likes of Stoke. That would indicate progress. But the simple fact is that Liverpool's season, as far as playing is concerned, hasn't been that great.

[GYBS]

But chelsea didnt win one of those games they still lost it - twice to us in fact as well . so no point going on about ifs and buts again . Is the end result not what matters ? Last year peoplewanted us to progress in terms of getting better results in the big four league - well we have done that this year .

[heimdall]

BUTS and IFS mean nothing toneyh - surely its the end result for liverpool that matters not how we get there - and in that case then we have progressed .

No...if the other teams in the "big four" have gone down a notch, but we have continued to play the same as last season (worse IMO), then that is not a sign of the team progressing.

Look...Chelsea only have to have won one of their losses and we'd be in 3rd place behind them.

It doesn't do me any good to be saying this and I'd love it if Liverpool had had convincing victories and wins against the likes of Stoke. That would indicate progress. But the simple fact is that Liverpool's season, as far as playing is concerned, hasn't been that great.

Mate I'd give up, you'd get more sense out of your pet than you would out of these guys, they have made their mind up and are not going to change it ever, well not until the new manager comes in anyway!
I totally agree with you, we may have more points this season but do we look better, do we play better, the answer for me is a big NO and that is what worries me.
I really enjoyed the game yesterday between manure and Inter, that was quality football, that was what I want to see us doing and very very occasionally we do, normally when the players seem to forget Rafa's initial turgid tactics and play to their abilities with some creativity and flair.

[tonyeh]

The wins against Chelsea (first game anyway) and Utd, weren't convincing enough for me to say that the team's progressed much in that regard. As I said earlier, but for an OG and a deflection, those games are simply draws.

I can agree to say that Liverpool have "progressed" up the table (at least for now anyway) they may still end up at 4th spot, but I cannot agree that Liverpool have progressed as a team, especially in terms of playing.

[GYBS]

Shall we go the arsenal route then and play lovely attacking football ? yes man utd and inter may of looked lovely last night to watch but what was the score ? was it not nil nil ? so doesnt mater one bit how they play its the end result that matters .

[GYBS]

The wins against Chelsea (first game anyway) and Utd, weren't convincing enough for me to say that the team's progressed much in that regard. As I said earlier, but for an OG and a deflection, those games are simply draws.

I can agree to say that Liverpool have "progressed" up the table (at least for now anyway) they may still end up at 4th spot, but I cannot agree that Liverpool have progressed as a team, especially in terms of playing.

But isnt the game about results at the end of the day and picking up points ? as i stated in other post would you rather we play the arsenal way and play lovely football but win feck all . man utd are playing awful football but do you think they care cause they are getting the results that matter ?

Man Utd first match we outplayed them-simple as that - if t wasnt for van der sar it would of been a lot more - same with both chelsea games - we controlled both games and outplyed them and in all three games got the result that we deserved and it was the result that mattered .

[heimdall]

Shall we go the arsenal route then and play lovely attacking football ? yes man utd and inter may of looked lovely last night to watch but what was the score ? was it not nil nil ? so doesnt mater one bit how they play its the end result that matters .

It may have been 0-0 GYBS but it was a hell of a lot more interesting to watch than our recent draws and also it could easily have been about 3-3. If you can't appreciate that game for it's football then I feel sorry for you because that truly was the beautiful game.